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Old 03-11-2009, 01:07 PM   #1
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Question about the Undertaker/Michaels' segment on Raw
Okay, I'll preface this by saying I liked how Michaels reacted to Taker, so as to avoid the usual stream of "God, KK, you hate everything" comments.

But do you think the whole "Hello Undertaker" bit is a little demystifying in terms of Taker's character? Michaels seems one of the guys most prone to kind of break (or peer around) the "fourth wall" in WWE. But it seemed like he was cutting in on Taker's shtick, especially since that's been a huge part of his mind game gimmick for years now.

I'll also add that I have no doubt this will have NO impact on the Undertaker's fanbase, I'm just curious.

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”

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Old 03-11-2009, 01:33 PM   #2
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I don't think so. Since they're building it up as legend vs legend the Undertaker is kinda outside his gimmick right now. I think they'll probably try to stay away from the mind games and just build it as a mano-a-mano, let the better man win type of deal.

I can't remember vividly but I want to say that whenever Taker had a program with a main event face, the face usually wasn't intimidated by Taker's mindgames.
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Old 03-11-2009, 01:39 PM   #3
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I don't think it affects the mystique of the UT at all. It shows how well these two know each other, and HBK cutting off the Deadman is brash and cocky, just like Shawn. We all know how the match will end at WM25, but at least they are making it entertaining.
I would of liked to see HHH/Taker at WM for the title, and I thought that was what was going to happen sense Taker and Trips where the last two in the chamber... but I was wrong.
HBK v. Taker should be good, the two senior vets of WWE should make a memorable WM.
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Old 03-11-2009, 01:40 PM   #4
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If anything I think it hurts kayfabe itself but strengthens Michaels. Now whenever Taker uses mind games (assuming they do go the no-sell or no mind games route from here on out) the opponent is going to look weaker if they succumb to them.
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Old 03-11-2009, 01:57 PM   #5
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I liked it. Made prefect sence of Shawn to know Undertaker was there. They have both been around the block and know each other well. I would expect Taker to up the ante on mind games.
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Old 03-11-2009, 02:23 PM   #6
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I liked it as well. It showed that HBK has been around long enough and knows The Undertaker well enough to know when he is/isn't going to appear. As they mentioned that Taker has never beaten HBK, they can be playing up the fact that HBK/Taker have a storied history with each other. I loved this segment and can't wait for the match at WM25. It will be worth the price of the PPV alone.
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Old 03-11-2009, 02:34 PM   #7
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The other thing is when Taker plays mind games with heels, they shit their pants because they don't know what's going to happen to them. HBK, the wily veteran, knew nothing bad was going to happen and that Taker just came out to have a chat.
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Old 03-11-2009, 07:35 PM   #8
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What Shawn did is what everyone should have been doing throughout the years. The storyline is always that everyone is scared of Taker, but if you're not, you can beat him. I actually like a storyline where someone isn't scared shitless of everything Taker does.
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Old 03-11-2009, 07:50 PM   #9
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I liked that it came off like Shawn "knows" the taker and what he is and does. LIke Shawn is one of the few that have been around the block and can hang with the Taker.
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Old 03-11-2009, 07:51 PM   #10
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I liked it. Made prefect sence of Shawn to know Undertaker was there. They have both been around the block and know each other well. I would expect Taker to up the ante on mind games.
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I liked that it came off like Shawn "knows" the taker and what he is and does. LIke Shawn is one of the few that have been around the block and can hang with the Taker.
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Old 03-11-2009, 07:58 PM   #11
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Old 03-11-2009, 08:07 PM   #12
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I liked it. Made prefect sence of Shawn to know Undertaker was there. They have both been around the block and know each other well. I would expect Taker to up the ante on mind games.
yea, this
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:55 PM   #13
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I agree with Supreme's post. I think this is going to go beyond the usual template of an Undertaker feud, with HBK and Taker having this respect that keeps Shawn from being afraid of Taker's shenanigans, and actually probably keeps Taker from pulling too many.

Leading into this match, I think the WWE should really emphasise that potential selling point HBK has of ending Ric Flair's career one year, and ending The Undertaker's streak the next.
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Old 03-13-2009, 10:57 PM   #14
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yea, your 2nd sentence is what I said in another thread. he's got to turn heel for that to work to the fullest though. or not really turn heel per say because saying those things over and over should eventually get under the fans' skin and turn him evidentaly
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Old 03-13-2009, 11:58 PM   #15
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You know what I'd like to see? Next week Michaels says something about "I beat you in Hell in a Cell" or something like that, and the lights go out... Michaels says something along the lines of not being impressed, then when the lights come back up, Kane is standing behind HBM, and says something along the lines of "WHO beat Taker in HIAC?" And THIS rattles him a bit. They could sort of rinse and repeat with that casket match too... both are pretty much Shawn's biggest high-profile wins over Taker, and he needed Kane on both of them.
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Old 03-14-2009, 05:20 AM   #16
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I agree with all, but to add....

I don't feel it effects his mystique, as first of all, it has all been disected at some point in the past. Secondly, I don't think by predicting that after the lights went out that Undertaker would appear really takes anything away from the percieved 'other worldly' powers he is suggested to have, but it obviously questions his predictability. I wanted to say he has predictable mystique, an oxymoron, but apt in this instance.
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Old 03-14-2009, 06:32 AM   #17
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I liked it. Made prefect sence of Shawn to know Undertaker was there. They have both been around the block and know each other well. I would expect Taker to up the ante on mind games.
100% Agreed.
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Old 03-15-2009, 11:24 AM   #18
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If anything I think it hurts kayfabe itself but strengthens Michaels. Now whenever Taker uses mind games (assuming they do go the no-sell or no mind games route from here on out) the opponent is going to look weaker if they succumb to them.
Of course, Michaels doesn't really need to be strengthened.

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I liked it. Made prefect sence of Shawn to know Undertaker was there. They have both been around the block and know each other well. I would expect Taker to up the ante on mind games.
Well, that's a selective application of perfect sense. I mean, you've got guys who have known Michaels for years, but still can't figure out that stomping sound means a kick to the face is coming.

Again, not that I completely care. When I saw him pop up, I was thinking, "Wouldn't it be awesome if he said, 'He's behind me, isn't he?'"

I was just surprised that they actually did that.
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Old 03-15-2009, 12:36 PM   #19
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Like the biker gimmick didn't ruin the mystique already.

No, this just makes more sense for Michaels, a guy that's been around for years, to know that Taker isn't some benevolent Boogeyman who's coming to get you like Orton and others have "thought" in the past. He's too old for mind games and lightning coming from the top of the arena, Taker's just an old veteran to him, and that's the way it should be.

Also, if they want to ever induct Mark into the HOF, they need to get rid of some of that "boogeyman" feel eventually, and there's no better time to start than now.
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Old 03-15-2009, 06:31 PM   #20
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Like the biker gimmick didn't ruin the mystique already.
And if it didn't, his wife calling him "Mark" on screen...
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Old 03-15-2009, 07:11 PM   #21
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Anybody else think that he knew Taker was there because he was already staring at the gigantic 50ft titantron that showed Taker standing behind him? Or is that too much sense?
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Old 03-15-2009, 08:42 PM   #22
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Narc brings up an excellent point.
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Old 03-16-2009, 03:02 AM   #23
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Also, if they want to ever induct Mark into the HOF, they need to get rid of some of that "boogeyman" feel eventually, and there's no better time to start than now.

------------

And if it didn't, his wife calling him "Mark" on screen...

They did this back in 99. After the Ministry, Taker started turning into a megaheel who just hated people for a living, and started talking about beating people up and bikes, and he even started wearing a bandana in promos before his matches. Even while he was at the top of his game in the Ministry, Shamrock kept calling him Mark in order to show that he wasn't gonna fall over to Taker's mind games.

Tbh, I don't think Taker has been like his old 'BAHGAWD THE POWERS OF THE UNDERTAKER' self for a few years now. They always say he just uses mind games to psych out the opponent. Even in his promos, the only thing the same as the old character is his voice.
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Old 03-16-2009, 11:32 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Loose Cannon View Post
yea, your 2nd sentence is what I said in another thread. he's got to turn heel for that to work to the fullest though. or not really turn heel per say because saying those things over and over should eventually get under the fans' skin and turn him evidentaly
I don't know if I'd turn Shawn Michaels full heel for this. The concept of the match is that it's two of the most popular Texan icons in professional wrestling history locking horns at the 25th WrestleMania in their homestate.

I'd love to see a heel HBK eventually, but I think what this needs is for both men to be playing the very core characters of what makes them who they are. HBK needs to go into this match being the cocky guy that believes that he will kick Taker's head off -- like every other time they have fought. To be honest, I think that could intensify HBK's face pops.

One element that seems to fit, although it does seem risky to bring in, because it contrasts against my last point, is HBK's Christianity. HBK as a good soul is someone that would probably love to kick a guy who plays around with concept such a hell like a joke really good. But I get the feeling that a light versus darkness concept could ruin the pure human reality of these two greats locking up.
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Old 03-16-2009, 11:36 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by DaVe View Post
Also, if they want to ever induct Mark into the HOF, they need to get rid of some of that "boogeyman" feel eventually, and there's no better time to start than now.

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And if it didn't, his wife calling him "Mark" on screen...

They did this back in 99. After the Ministry, Taker started turning into a megaheel who just hated people for a living, and started talking about beating people up and bikes, and he even started wearing a bandana in promos before his matches. Even while he was at the top of his game in the Ministry, Shamrock kept calling him Mark in order to show that he wasn't gonna fall over to Taker's mind games.

Tbh, I don't think Taker has been like his old 'BAHGAWD THE POWERS OF THE UNDERTAKER' self for a few years now. They always say he just uses mind games to psych out the opponent. Even in his promos, the only thing the same as the old character is his voice.
A realistic version of Taker's character could be very cool. Cut out the special effects, and remove the supernatural undertones, and bring him down a guy who associates himself with such imagery.

That whole think with Edge last year was kind of the same old cheesy stuff, though. Listening to a promo Edge cut on Big Show, where he said that he "literally went to hell" almost made me laugh, and I think Show almost did as well. Commentary would say "hell" constantly, and eventually I got the idea that the WWE was actually trying to put over the concept that The Undertaker opened a portal and Edge was actually in the afterlife.

I think the WWE will have to cut out The Undertaker's shtick for this match a bit. Partially because they are going to play to the hometown crowd, and Taker's supernatural character is from Death Valley. They have tried to explain him as relocating there, or whatever, but to really call a place "home," Taker might have to remove himself from the character a bit. Which I don't think he'd have a problem with, as he liked playing the biker, and given that this is a program with Shawn fucking Michaels.
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