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Old 04-27-2009, 04:51 PM   #1
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Speculate the Relationship: Vince & CM Punk


This week we take you to a relationship that has certainly had its share of ups and downs since Punk's WWE debut in 2006. Punk started out on a mean ECW undefeated streak...then lost with little fanfare to Bob Holly on a random ECW episode. He won the ECW title in a great series of matches...but then lost it to Chavo Guerrero (you know, the guy who lost it in 29 seconds at Wrestlemania?). He won the Money in the Bank ladder match and successfully cashed it in to become the World Heavyweight champion...only to forfeit the title after getting punting. At some point he missed out on becoming the King of the Ring. Punk DID capture the Intercontinental Championship...only to lose it to John "Bradshaw" Layfield (you know, the guy who lost it in 15 seconds at Wrestlemania?). Recently, Punk won the Money in the Bank...but was drafted to Smackdown and lost to Kane at Backlast.

Is Punk in Mr. McMahon's Doghouse? Does Mr. McMahon have a fetish for building Punk up, only to knock him down? Does Punk enjoy being treated this way? Could this be a booking sado-masochist relationship? Or is Mr. McMahon doing this to Punk to "get" the smarks? Do they secretly have some kind of "gentlemen's" bet about whether or not Punk can break the glass ceiling and take tea after the shows to discuss these things?

Only you can...

SPECULATE
THE
RELATIONSHIP!

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Old 04-27-2009, 05:11 PM   #2
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Punk is Vince's dealer
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Old 04-27-2009, 05:37 PM   #3
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Here's the deal with Punk. The writers are all young guys who like him and always push for him. Vince McMahon therefore hates him because he is sick to death of people pushing for him.

And don't think I'm kidding, 3 previous WWE writers went public saying it.
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Old 04-27-2009, 05:43 PM   #4
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If that truly is the case, then Vince McMahon is a fucking retard. Seriously...
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Old 04-27-2009, 05:44 PM   #5
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if vince didnt like punk...why would he agree to have him be the first 2 time, let alone back to back winner of MITB...which pretty much gauruntees a major title run?

and vince if you dont like the writers pushing punk down ur throat....STOP PUSHING CENA DOWN OURS!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-27-2009, 05:46 PM   #6
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If that truly is the case, then Vince McMahon is a fucking retard. Seriously...
I wasn't there and I also can't read Vince's mind but knowning how he works, it wouldn't surprise me. They also mentioned how up until Wrestlemania when Rey Misterio won the title, the booking team was writing angles for Orton as world champion because they were sure Vince wouldn't want Rey as champion since he apparently did nothing but bitch about it from the minute he put him over in the Royal Rumble.
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Old 04-27-2009, 05:48 PM   #7
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I forgot who the third writer was off the top of my head but the other two were Alex Greenfield (who I think was Smackdown's head writer at one point) and Court Bauer.
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Old 04-27-2009, 05:52 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I wasn't there and I also can't read Vince's mind but knowning how he works, it wouldn't surprise me. They also mentioned how up until Wrestlemania when Rey Misterio won the title, the booking team was writing angles for Orton as world champion because they were sure Vince wouldn't want Rey as champion since he apparently did nothing but bitch about it from the minute he put him over in the Royal Rumble.
Wow.

Given the bottlneck/glass ceiling that we've seen for the past 4+ years, I thought that a lot of it was due to the writers' own incompetence....and other forms of backstage politics. I also assumed that Vince wasn't really involved in many of the decisions and that the inmates were literally running the asylum.

Looks like Vince himself was the true problem after all.
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Old 04-27-2009, 06:06 PM   #9
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Well they also reckon there aren't enough people who are willing to stick up for their own ideas or tell Vince's his are shit. If you could imagine Vince suggesting that Randy Orton drop the world title tonight to say Carlito. Not enough people would step up and tell him that's fucking nuts so it would probably happen.

I honestly believe the majority of the problems come from three major areas

- People are scared to tell Vince McMahon his ideas aren't good or they can't suggest something better.
- Vince McMahon is totally out of touch with what his key demographic wants to see because he quite simply is an old Grandfather who isn't cool.
- Most of the writers prepare material that is written for McMahon to like and not to actually better the product.

WWE is totally stale. I'm not a big rap fan really but why aren't there any rap influences that aren't total stereotypes.

All the real interesting stuff comes from guys like Shawn Michaels who take the scripts given to them to revise and throw them right in the bin. The guys who talk the prepared shit are the ones who can't get over. Coincidence?
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Old 04-27-2009, 06:20 PM   #10
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Well they also reckon there aren't enough people who are willing to stick up for their own ideas or tell Vince's his are shit. If you could imagine Vince suggesting that Randy Orton drop the world title tonight to say Carlito. Not enough people would step up and tell him that's fucking nuts so it would probably happen.

I honestly believe the majority of the problems come from three major areas

- People are scared to tell Vince McMahon his ideas aren't good or they can't suggest something better.
- Vince McMahon is totally out of touch with what his key demographic wants to see because he quite simply is an old Grandfather who isn't cool.
- Most of the writers prepare material that is written for McMahon to like and not to actually better the product.

WWE is totally stale. I'm not a big rap fan really but why aren't there any rap influences that aren't total stereotypes.

All the real interesting stuff comes from guys like Shawn Michaels who take the scripts given to them to revise and throw them right in the bin. The guys who talk the prepared shit are the ones who can't get over. Coincidence?

This sounds about right. Who cares though, it's not like things are going to change.
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Old 04-27-2009, 06:23 PM   #11
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This is how it always has been in the WWF/E.

The only time it wasn't like this was from 1997-1999. This was because Vince Russo "stepped up" to Vince McMahon in writing meetings and was credited as being the only guy to ever be honest with Vince about what sucked, and what didn't work, and what they needed to do to be cool.
Vince was said to love this, and trusted Russo.
It didn't dissapoint.

People will say what they will about Russo's work in WCW and TNA, and although it may take the dogmatic mind of Vince to control his ideas, the bottom line is he was able to step up to McMahon and challenge the stale system.
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Old 04-27-2009, 06:25 PM   #12
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Things can change...when Vince steps down...and Steph leaves
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Old 04-27-2009, 06:26 PM   #13
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Things can change...when Vince steps down...and Steph leaves
Yeah, but then Punk has to PLAY THE GAME.
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Old 04-27-2009, 06:29 PM   #14
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This is how it always has been in the WWF/E.
No it isn't. Vince knew what his audience wanted once upon a time because he wasn't far from the age group and he actually listened to his talent who were. He also never had writers for years. And the people who used to suggest ideas were from wrestling backgrounds.
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Old 04-27-2009, 06:36 PM   #15
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Once the Attitude Era hit I don't think Vince truly knew what he was doing and was lost. He just happened to listen more and gave more freedom to the performers who mattered.

His best era (in terms of actually knowing the fans), as far as I'm concerned, was the Mania era up to when Hogan left.
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:28 PM   #16
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I fucking miss the Attitude Era. I wish they would come out with a Raw box set of it.
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:04 AM   #17
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Punk is Vince's dealer
Got that backwards.

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Well they also reckon there aren't enough people who are willing to stick up for their own ideas or tell Vince's his are shit. If you could imagine Vince suggesting that Randy Orton drop the world title tonight to say Carlito. Not enough people would step up and tell him that's fucking nuts so it would probably happen.

I honestly believe the majority of the problems come from three major areas

- People are scared to tell Vince McMahon his ideas aren't good or they can't suggest something better.
- Vince McMahon is totally out of touch with what his key demographic wants to see because he quite simply is an old Grandfather who isn't cool.
- Most of the writers prepare material that is written for McMahon to like and not to actually better the product.

WWE is totally stale. I'm not a big rap fan really but why aren't there any rap influences that aren't total stereotypes.

All the real interesting stuff comes from guys like Shawn Michaels who take the scripts given to them to revise and throw them right in the bin. The guys who talk the prepared shit are the ones who can't get over. Coincidence?
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Old 04-28-2009, 08:55 AM   #18
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I dont see how CM Punk is really held down. He had his own show, ECW, for a while and he won MITB two years in a row, a Triple Crown Champion, looking to become a 2 Time World Champion.

To me that is not being held down at all.
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Old 04-28-2009, 09:40 AM   #19
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Rob knows his shit, so I'm not going to argue about what Vince thinks about Punk. I agree with him completely about the writers, but I always thought that Vince was all for pushing Punk to a degree. Vince has named him in interviews as being "the future" of the company, but I guess Vince doesn't see the future coming in until he dies.

Politics probably come into hand when Punk gets pushed. Jeff Hardy fucked up last year, and Punk got the Money in the Bank win instead. I mean, the guy is young, but he's also reliable. I think reliability is one thing that is going to carry Punk through to a fairly strong career. Maybe it won't be as strong as it should be -- but I see Punk racking up some great achievements with the company, and eventually his tenure will give him more power.

I still find it very odd that CM Punk had the Philly crowd more interested in him than his partners in DX and The Hardys at Survivor Series '06, and the following ECW loses his undefeated streak which had been doing him so well. It's like the WWE realised this guy was actually getting over and becoming a star, so they fucked him over.

Who honestly would have looked at Punk's reaction at Survivor Series, and thought that Punk should have jobbed to Hardcore Holly of all people just two nights later? Then, he was the first guy eliminated from the Extreme Elimination Chamber -- again by Hardcore Holly. Punk should not have won that match, but with Big Show leaving the company, he could have exited the match first, to put over all the other guys that would actually be employed the following show. Holly, as a heel that never really belonged in the main event, was there to make the faces look good, so he should have gone next. Punk should have been no sooner than third eliminated from that bout. Hell, you probably could have had the final fall come down between Bobby Lashley and CM Punk.
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Old 04-28-2009, 09:42 AM   #20
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I also, for the life of me, can't fathom why Kane needed to go over Punk at Backlash. A clean win for Punk would have done so much for him. This is coming from a Kane mark, keep in mind -- the big man did not need a win here, and it did relatively nothing for him.

It's especially baffling as there is money in having Punk cash-in against Edge in Chicago.
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Old 04-28-2009, 11:24 AM   #21
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The way wrestling is today, a guy like CM Punk is not a guy who can carry a company because of his size. He is one of the better wrestlers in WWE, in all of wrestling in fact, but he needs to show off everything and get the audience to grow with him, most people do enjoy watching him, but they don't pay to go see him like most pay to see someone like HBK.

He should take the HBK approach and build himself up in the midcard and make the midcard division something important again. There are many guys in the midcard that are like him and they compliment each other well and the wrestlers in the midcard division now have the skills to bring the IC/US title back to where they were in 98/99. Show off his wrestling and mic skills. Then he can move up into the main event scene and IMO he can become one of the top guys in WWE.
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Old 04-28-2009, 11:26 AM   #22
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CM Punk could easily be a top heel for the WWE. I'd love to see him feud with guys like Jeff Hardy and Shawn Michaels.
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Old 04-28-2009, 11:39 AM   #23
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He could. I think he would be great with that, I can't wait to see that, but I think he should stay with the HBK route
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Old 04-28-2009, 11:51 AM   #24
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I think Punk is above the mid-card now. The guy has won the Tag Team Titles, and the IC Title. He's also been ECW Champion and World Heavyweight Champion. As far as resumes go, Punk's is pretty padded as far as quality goes, if not quantity. Hell, the only titles left for him to win are the US and WWE Titles.

I've seen more and more people saying that Punk just isn't a main eventer and should stick to the mid-card, but I think someone like Punk just has too much going for him. He's too good in the ring, and too good on the mic. He's got his own indentity (although the WWE haven't really played it up as anything more than backstory), and given that his second MITB win will probably lead to a third World Title reign -- I can't see why the guy should not be used at the level at which I feel the WWE truly intends him to be at.

What I wouldn't give for CM Punk and Chris Jericho to be the top heels on SmackDown!, while Jeff Hardy and Edge played top faces.
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Old 04-28-2009, 07:37 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
I dont see how CM Punk is really held down. He had his own show, ECW, for a while and he won MITB two years in a row, a Triple Crown Champion, looking to become a 2 Time World Champion.

To me that is not being held down at all.
Gotta to absolutely agree here. Punk has one of the best win/loss ratios for 2009 and wrestled a hell of a lot of shows too.

For a guy who hasn't got the look, wasn't a creation of Vince or the WWE (remember how much he hates this) and doesn't necessarily wrestle the WWE-way, he's done awful well for himself.

Some of you won't be happy until Punk is a 10-time world champion, but the fact is that he's already achieved far more than we all first thought possible and is consistently getting his hand in top matches and winning a lot of matches that matter.
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Old 04-28-2009, 08:10 PM   #26
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This thread is not as fun as Brian Kendrick and Big Zeke being gay lovers. It just turned into every other thread.
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Old 04-28-2009, 08:21 PM   #27
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This thread is not as fun as Brian Kendrick and Big Zeke being gay lovers. It just turned into every other thread.
Punk blows Vince for smack.

How's that?
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Old 04-29-2009, 08:21 AM   #28
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I'll agree with Noid on Punk being "reliable" in Vince's eyes. Vince might not like his look as much as he likes Cena's, but at least he knows both of them won't go on a three-day meth binge and make the company look bad with a failed drug test, flake out for a PPV, or just decide to quit out of the blue. Post Lashley/Lesnar and dealing with Jeff Hardy's acting like an emo teenage girl every other year, that kind of thing is extremely valuable to him.
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Old 04-29-2009, 01:16 PM   #29
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I fucking miss the Attitude Era. I wish they would come out with a Raw box set of it.

Yes? No?
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Old 04-30-2009, 07:38 AM   #30
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Gotta to absolutely agree here. Punk has one of the best win/loss ratios for 2009 and wrestled a hell of a lot of shows too.

For a guy who hasn't got the look, wasn't a creation of Vince or the WWE (remember how much he hates this) and doesn't necessarily wrestle the WWE-way, he's done awful well for himself.

Some of you won't be happy until Punk is a 10-time world champion, but the fact is that he's already achieved far more than we all first thought possible and is consistently getting his hand in top matches and winning a lot of matches that matter.
Punk actually does win a lot, so you have a very good point. But I disagree with the implications of your post. When Punk loses, he often loses when he really shouldn't. The losses he does take, are fucking horrible ones. And I get so sick of the exaggerated implication that everyone wants to see CM Punk win ten World Titles, or unify the belts at WrestleMania. There are grey zones.
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Old 04-30-2009, 02:05 PM   #31
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But you do have to agree that Punk has exceeded what anyone thought possible for him in the WWE already, right?

I mean, I'd love to see him receive a bigger and bigger push by the month, but at this point I'm just happy to have him featured regularly, and prominently, on WWE programming. He's already wildly successful, and everything else is just gravy.
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Old 04-30-2009, 03:19 PM   #32
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But you do have to agree that Punk has exceeded what anyone thought possible for him in the WWE already, right?

I mean, I'd love to see him receive a bigger and bigger push by the month, but at this point I'm just happy to have him featured regularly, and prominently, on WWE programming. He's already wildly successful, and everything else is just gravy.
Well, yes and no. I think that on paper, CM Punk has all the skills to be even more successful than what he currently is. If you mean that he hasn't been stuck on Sunday Night Heat like cynical folk would have suggested, then sure.

No one is going to tell you that Punk has not been successful so far in his WWE career. But if we're talking about turning an employee into the biggest cash cow they can be, then Punk has not been capitlised on nearly as much as he should have been. There is no reason why CM Punk, as a top face that has so consistently held gold in the WWE, should not have a product in the top ten on WWE Shop.com every week.
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Old 04-30-2009, 03:50 PM   #33
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When Punk loses, he often loses when he really shouldn't. The losses he does take, are fucking horrible ones. And I get so sick of the exaggerated implication that everyone wants to see CM Punk win ten World Titles, or unify the belts at WrestleMania. There are grey zones.
The losses he takes are irrelevant in the bigger picture. The loss to Kane at Backlash will be erased from history before the end of the month.

I agree that the manner in which he lost the world title was ridiculous, and being a CM Punk fan myself, I found it hard to swallow. However, my faith has been renewed by the fact he won another MITB match. The future is clearly, and consistently, bright for Punk. When he's not in the main tier, he's usually holding onto a secondary belt, and when he's on television he's usually wrestling, not in a skit or backstage segment.

It was an exaggeration for the purpose of my argument. But if there was a button to be pushed which instantly satisfied the desires of the collective IWC, CM Punk would have been pushed insanely and been made champion at least a dozen times over the last 3 years, by fanboys who love to curse and moan that nothing is being done with him.

We've become as fickle and as impatient as the average fan of reality television. Bitching that our favourite personality is getting a raw deal, and that he deserves to be the winner because we said so. When in fact, he's probably a bigger star than we all thought when the show started out. Which returns to my original conclusion that very few of us imagined that after several years, Punk would still be in the WWE, as a former world champion none-the-less, and not back in ROH with all the other indy wrestlers who didn't have the look or WWE-style.
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Old 04-30-2009, 03:54 PM   #34
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There is no reason why CM Punk, as a top face that has so consistently held gold in the WWE, should not have a product in the top ten on WWE Shop.com every week.
I just can't see it. Mostly because the majority of the WWE fans who buy the tickets to shows or pay the inflated prices of WWEShop.com are kids who wouldn't even know what a Enzuigiri is, and would much rather see the show and spend their money when a Cena, Batista, Rey or even HHH is champion.
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Old 04-30-2009, 04:40 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Chavo Classic View Post
The losses he takes are irrelevant in the bigger picture. The loss to Kane at Backlash will be erased from history before the end of the month.

I agree that the manner in which he lost the world title was ridiculous, and being a CM Punk fan myself, I found it hard to swallow. However, my faith has been renewed by the fact he won another MITB match. The future is clearly, and consistently, bright for Punk. When he's not in the main tier, he's usually holding onto a secondary belt, and when he's on television he's usually wrestling, not in a skit or backstage segment.

It was an exaggeration for the purpose of my argument. But if there was a button to be pushed which instantly satisfied the desires of the collective IWC, CM Punk would have been pushed insanely and been made champion at least a dozen times over the last 3 years, by fanboys who love to curse and moan that nothing is being done with him.

We've become as fickle and as impatient as the average fan of reality television. Bitching that our favourite personality is getting a raw deal, and that he deserves to be the winner because we said so. When in fact, he's probably a bigger star than we all thought when the show started out. Which returns to my original conclusion that very few of us imagined that after several years, Punk would still be in the WWE, as a former world champion none-the-less, and not back in ROH with all the other indy wrestlers who didn't have the look or WWE-style.
Personally, I think the way CM Punk lost the World Heavyweight Title was well done. I don't think they followed it up well (CM Punk and Randy Orton could have had a high profile match at WrestleMania this year, for example), but my problem is more the way they handled the actual reign of CM Punk than him losing the title. The way they took the belt off him made it seem like they were putting his reign "on hold" for now, until they worked out how to book him proper.

Yes, the future for Punk is not grim, not grim in the slightest, but that doesn't mean that it's not going to be a bumpy road. Punk was the logical choice to win MITB again this year, and the WWE did follow that through. It would make sense if the WWE pushed Punk as a guy who looked like he belonged in the main event, though. Losing to Kane cleanly, while not going to ruin Punk's career, is far from good booking.

And that's what some people choose to recognise: The inconsistency in the "we've got big plans for you...honest"/"haha, now we fuck you up a bit" style booking the WWE often throws at Punk. Sometimes I am sure it is unintentional, but it probably boils down to something like Rob said -- Vince McMahon doesn't like Punk being pushed because he is different. Hell, MVP-style politics with Punk's "loyalty" to the business being questioned could come into play. Jobbing to Kane might be a way to see if Punk gets frustrated and starts phoning it in, or whatever.

Who fucking knows, all I am saying is that the way we see Punk booked is less than consistent. And I'm also going to say that given his talents, his charisma and his following, it doesn't really surprise me at all that Punk became a World Champion in the WWE, and didn't end up in ROH.
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Old 04-30-2009, 06:59 PM   #36
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And I'm also going to say that given his talents, his charisma and his following, it doesn't really surprise me at all that Punk became a World Champion in the WWE, and didn't end up in ROH.
Serious? You honestly thought this?

It makes perfect sense to anyone with any grasp of logic that a guy with charisma and ability (for example, Punk) would make it. But in the WWE?

Don't guys have to be at least 260lbs, wrestle like constipated gorillas and have characters that are created by Vince and Vince alone to make it big (for example, not Punk)?

I don't think anyone ever thought Punk would make it passed 3 years after his debut. Then 'that' Summerslam happened and now everyone is all self-congratulatory because they saw Punk before he got big wrestling in bingo halls and against nobodies; and they knew he'd always make it big.

Bollocks!
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Old 04-30-2009, 07:06 PM   #37
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Covert McMahon Punk

If Vince the WWE writers were on their game, this would have been the result of the "who is McMahon's bastard son" angle. FACT
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Old 05-01-2009, 04:42 AM   #38
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Serious? You honestly thought this?

It makes perfect sense to anyone with any grasp of logic that a guy with charisma and ability (for example, Punk) would make it. But in the WWE?

Don't guys have to be at least 260lbs, wrestle like constipated gorillas and have characters that are created by Vince and Vince alone to make it big (for example, not Punk)?

I don't think anyone ever thought Punk would make it passed 3 years after his debut. Then 'that' Summerslam happened and now everyone is all self-congratulatory because they saw Punk before he got big wrestling in bingo halls and against nobodies; and they knew he'd always make it big.

Bollocks!
I've never been one of those hardcore Punk marks, so don't label me like that, thanks. It's not a case of me saying "Yeah, this guy is so going to get picked up by the WWE and make it fucking massive and be a top draw," it's more so me looking at his work in ROH and OVW, seeing how it was not based around spots, but a more psychology-based style, and a character that he played -- and thinking "Yeah, this guy has got a better shot than most on the independent wrestling scene." And then when you read reports about how driven Punk was to make it, and many in the business felt that he would make it based solely on him being able to adapt to the elements and craving the big stage, it just solidifies it.

Hell, Punk may never headline a WrestleMania. I'm not certain he will. But that he was featured on ECW was not surprising. That he got over there is not surprising. That he won the ECW Title when Johnny fucking Nitro was the champion was not surprising. That he won MITB after Jeff Hardy failed a wellness test was not surprising. That Punk cashed in the title shot and became a World Champion was not surprised.

I don't know where all these surprises come from, to be honest.
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Old 05-01-2009, 04:45 AM   #39
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I still think Colt Cabana debuting as Scott McMahon would have been the best outcome of the McMahon bastard child angle. Followed closely by Elijah Burke.
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