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Reload this Page Bret "The Hitman" Hart vs. "The Heartbreak Kid" Shawn Michaels
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View Poll Results: Who do you like more?
Bret Hart 39 45.35%
Shawn Michaels 47 54.65%
Voters: 86. You must log in or register to vote on this poll.

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Old 06-24-2009, 02:49 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeboe View Post
Them being the heels MAY have had something to do with them both losing that night.....
Yes, Bret Hart and Owen were totally the heels in Montreal,Canada during a USA vs Canada storyline.
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Old 06-24-2009, 02:52 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
Yes, Bret Hart and Owen were totally the heels in Montreal,Canada during a USA vs Canada storyline.
They rarely wrestled in Canada. I think Vince was honestly more worried about his average week-to-week audiences, and since the WWE was getting destoryed by WCW, he knew by ripping off ECW and creating characters like Austin and D-X HBK was his only choice to keep up.
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Old 06-24-2009, 02:53 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeboe View Post
They rarely wrestled in Canada. I think Vince was honestly more worried about his average week-to-week audiences, and since the WWE was getting destoryed by WCW, he knew by ripping off ECW and creating characters like Austin and D-X HBK was his only choice to keep up.
Which Bret was very vocal in his opposition to. Therefore, Bret held back WWF from having the success it would have post-Bret.
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Old 06-24-2009, 03:55 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
Which Bret was very vocal in his opposition to. Therefore, Bret held back WWF from having the success it would have post-Bret.
Are you honestly trying to imply that Bret could stop Vince from going through with his edgier direction? If so, that says a lot about Vince.
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:06 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen v.W.o. View Post
Are you honestly trying to imply that Bret could stop Vince from going through with his edgier direction? If so, that says a lot about Vince.
BUT BRET WAS THE BIGGEST INTERNATIONAL DRAW IN TEH WORLDZ!
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Old 06-24-2009, 06:52 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
BUT BRET WAS THE BIGGEST INTERNATIONAL DRAW IN TEH WORLDZ!
Well he was certainly one of them. Bigger than Michaels, whose popularity certainly faded the further north you went up on a map.
Watching the thousands cheer Sid on in MSG as he dethrones HBK is a beautiful thing to watch.
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Old 06-24-2009, 09:42 PM   #87
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In late 1991, it was widely reported in the wrestling "insider" media of the time that reigning WWF Intercontinental champion Bret Hart had verbally agreed to a deal with WCW that included showing up on WCW TV with the I-C belt, mainly in retaliation to Ric Flair's NWA title shenanigans on WWF TV at the time.

The deal was nixed when it emerged that due to the terms of Bret's contract, he was not legally able to appear for WCW until his soon-to-expire WWF contract was up. WWF immediately had Bret drop the I-C title on a house show to the Mountie.

Eventually they were able to convince Bret to return and re-sign with the company, but the very fact that Bret had a verbal commitment to show up to WCW with the I-C belt goes to show just how "honorable" he is. Funny how he neglected to mention this turn of events in his autobiography, and not surprising that Vince McMahon should have concerns surrounding Bret defecting with the belt when a similar circumstance arises a few years later.
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Old 06-24-2009, 10:02 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen v.W.o. View Post
This poll was doomed to start for you Zeeboe. Bret hasn't been wrestling since about 2000. HBK is still going, he's fresh in some older people's minds and he's there for the new fans who weren't watching back in the day, which tpww has a ton of.

Had you done such a poll while both men were wrestling in the late 90's, obviously Hart would win.
If by "obviously," you mean "I'm saying it only because I'm one of those rabid Canucktards," Yes.

Yeah, Michaels is still going. Yeah, he's fresh to those young and old. Yes, Hart is some washed up cripple only rabid Canadians give a shit about.

But really? Obviously Bret would win? Based on wishful thinking? Or maybe that the majority of TPWW's Kliq hadn't been born yet?
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Old 06-24-2009, 10:06 PM   #89
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However, there is a reason the greatest wrestling promoter of all time felt that both the Harts weren't good for business.

LAWL.
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Old 06-25-2009, 01:02 AM   #90
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LAWL
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Old 06-25-2009, 01:07 AM   #91
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LAWL dustin
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Old 06-25-2009, 01:08 AM   #92
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lulz
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Old 06-25-2009, 07:33 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
LAWL.

Please tell me who was a better wrestling promoter than Vince McMahon.
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Old 06-25-2009, 09:25 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Class Act Carl View Post
In late 1991, it was widely reported in the wrestling "insider" media of the time that reigning WWF Intercontinental champion Bret Hart had verbally agreed to a deal with WCW that included showing up on WCW TV with the I-C belt, mainly in retaliation to Ric Flair's NWA title shenanigans on WWF TV at the time.

The deal was nixed when it emerged that due to the terms of Bret's contract, he was not legally able to appear for WCW until his soon-to-expire WWF contract was up. WWF immediately had Bret drop the I-C title on a house show to the Mountie.

Eventually they were able to convince Bret to return and re-sign with the company, but the very fact that Bret had a verbal commitment to show up to WCW with the I-C belt goes to show just how "honorable" he is. Funny how he neglected to mention this turn of events in his autobiography, and not surprising that Vince McMahon should have concerns surrounding Bret defecting with the belt when a similar circumstance arises a few years later.
Not saying that story is or isn't true (I have no way of knowing), but just saying that it was "widely reported" is very far from being written in stone, especially in the wrestling industry in the early 90's.

Why did they have him drop the belt if it was just an unfounded rumor? Maybe Vince heard the rumors and thought they were true. I don't know, but a lot of things have been widely reported and not even close to true. Maybe Bret started the rumors himself to get more money on his next contract.
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Old 06-25-2009, 11:01 AM   #95
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James, you're adorable. Don't ever change.
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Old 06-25-2009, 05:53 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbrawl83 View Post
Not saying that story is or isn't true (I have no way of knowing), but just saying that it was "widely reported" is very far from being written in stone, especially in the wrestling industry in the early 90's.

Why did they have him drop the belt if it was just an unfounded rumor? Maybe Vince heard the rumors and thought they were true. I don't know, but a lot of things have been widely reported and not even close to true. Maybe Bret started the rumors himself to get more money on his next contract.
Bret politicked as much as the next guy in his day. If you look back through the years, he was quite regularly "considering a move to WCW" and placated by title wins, lucrative contracts and the ilk during his WWF run. Look at his very first World title win, which took place in the same month his contract expired/was renewed. At that point he was apparently firmly decided on a WCW move. Vince played the World title card, and Bret stayed.

He may bleat about "always being loyal" to the company, but simply working somewhere for a number of consecutive years doesn't neccessarily equate to loyalty. Bret's loyalty mainly laid with his wallet and his ego.
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Old 06-26-2009, 03:39 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
Please tell me who was a better wrestling promoter than Vince McMahon.
I'm sure you can find more creative people, people with better business skills, richer people, and people who are in one way better than Vince McMahon.
However, it doesn't take one thing to be a better promoter. Vince is overall better than anyone else in the past 50 years.
You want proof? TNA is the second biggest wrestling promotion in the USA. Let's compare TNA to WWE.
"what about WCW? Or ECW? Or World Class? Or AWA?"
Yea, all property of WWE now.
There is no better wrestling promoter, regardless of how business may look today, than Vincent Kennedy McMahon.
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Old 06-26-2009, 08:57 AM   #98
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LOL 450.
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Old 06-26-2009, 01:19 PM   #99
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Kane Knight, instead of LOL and LAWLing like a jackass please tell me who is a better wrestling promoter than Vince McMahon.
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Old 06-26-2009, 01:34 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Class Act Carl View Post
Bret politicked as much as the next guy in his day. If you look back through the years, he was quite regularly "considering a move to WCW" and placated by title wins, lucrative contracts and the ilk during his WWF run. Look at his very first World title win, which took place in the same month his contract expired/was renewed. At that point he was apparently firmly decided on a WCW move. Vince played the World title card, and Bret stayed.

He may bleat about "always being loyal" to the company, but simply working somewhere for a number of consecutive years doesn't neccessarily equate to loyalty. Bret's loyalty mainly laid with his wallet and his ego.
That's my point. He probably had no desire to go there, but he was just spreading the rumors to get title runs and more money. As far as I can see no one has any loyalty, despite what they say, in any form of business.
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Old 06-26-2009, 01:36 PM   #101
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You HBK marks are just lucky I have my own battles to deal with right now, or I'd be sharpshooting all of you. But I may be back. For now, I will just say: Everything any Shawn Michaels fan posts on here is bullshit.

Thank you.
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Old 06-27-2009, 04:23 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Class Act Carl View Post
Bret politicked as much as the next guy in his day. If you look back through the years, he was quite regularly "considering a move to WCW" and placated by title wins, lucrative contracts and the ilk during his WWF run. Look at his very first World title win, which took place in the same month his contract expired/was renewed. At that point he was apparently firmly decided on a WCW move. Vince played the World title card, and Bret stayed.

He may bleat about "always being loyal" to the company, but simply working somewhere for a number of consecutive years doesn't neccessarily equate to loyalty. Bret's loyalty mainly laid with his wallet and his ego.
Holy shit Carl, I never knew about this or The Mountie thing.

True or not, even as a 11 year old, I thought it strange that Bret got the WWF title like that.

You've enlightened me today, thank you.
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Old 06-27-2009, 05:59 PM   #103
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Carl is a liar, his first title win was on a freakin non televised card against Flair, who was apparently in the dog house at the time due to Vince being unhappy with him. Bret was their man, he got the belt.

Bret was never considering any wcw contracts, because he never received any up until 1996.
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Old 06-28-2009, 09:30 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen v.W.o. View Post
Carl is a liar, his first title win was on a freakin non televised card against Flair, who was apparently in the dog house at the time due to Vince being unhappy with him. Bret was their man, he got the belt.

Bret was never considering any wcw contracts, because he never received any up until 1996.
I'm not a liar. What difference would it make that the title match was untelevised?? None whatsoever. It took place at a TV taping nonetheless, and was recorded potentially for television. I believe they didn't end up showing it due to match quality.

Flair wasn't in the dog house so much as he was injured (ear drum). Believe it or not, Vince's initial plan was to have Ric Flair drop the strap to "El Matador" Tito Santana.

You say that Bret was never considering WCW contract offers because he never received any until 1996. This is simply not correct. NWA/WCW courted Bret (as part of the Hart Foundation) on a few occasions in the late 80s, again in late 1991, again late 1992, and every subsequent year until they snared him in 1997.

And as I say, he verbally accepted a WCW deal in 1991 when he thought he legally could, but it turned out he was unable to do so in accordance with his running WWF deal.
Last edited by NeanderCarl; 06-28-2009 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 06-28-2009, 10:03 AM   #105
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proof?
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Old 06-28-2009, 10:06 AM   #106
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Kane Knight, instead of LOL and LAWLing like a jackass please tell me who is a better wrestling promoter than Vince McMahon.

Past and present..... Absolutely no one!!!
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Old 06-28-2009, 01:54 PM   #107
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HBK/Bret, never fails.
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Old 06-28-2009, 01:55 PM   #108
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Steele's got a point. If I keep acting like a jackass, someone will confuse me for the Kliq.
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Old 06-28-2009, 02:16 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Class Act Carl View Post
I'm not a liar. What difference would it make that the title match was untelevised?? None whatsoever. It took place at a TV taping nonetheless, and was recorded potentially for television. I believe they didn't end up showing it due to match quality.

Flair wasn't in the dog house so much as he was injured (ear drum). Believe it or not, Vince's initial plan was to have Ric Flair drop the strap to "El Matador" Tito Santana.

You say that Bret was never considering WCW contract offers because he never received any until 1996. This is simply not correct. NWA/WCW courted Bret (as part of the Hart Foundation) on a few occasions in the late 80s, again in late 1991, again late 1992, and every subsequent year until they snared him in 1997.

And as I say, he verbally accepted a WCW deal in 1991 when he thought he legally could, but it turned out he was unable to do so in accordance with his running WWF deal.

Yeah, like someone before me asked, where's the proof of all this? Because not once before has any of this ever been mentioned, by any single individual.
Even if wcw wanted the Hitman, Bret never stated that he once remotely considered their offers, until his actual wwf contract with that very company was up in 96. BTW, Bret then turns down 3 million bucks base salary to take a longer deal, yet much less financially speaking.
So whatever the wcw was offering in the early 90's, when Bret wasn't nearlly as big as he was years later, doesnt seem to be all that tempting, or believable.
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Old 06-28-2009, 04:59 PM   #110
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Quote:
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Steele's got a point. If I keep acting like a jackass, someone will confuse me for the Kliq.
LAWL.
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Old 06-28-2009, 05:07 PM   #111
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I have never seen anything, anywhere that indicated Hart was leaving for WCW in late 1991, causing him to drop the belt to the Mountie.

Also, the only person I've ever heard claim that Tito Santana was going to get the strap in late 1992, was Santana himself.
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Old 06-28-2009, 08:33 PM   #112
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The info came from the dirtsheets at the time, mainly Meltzer, who is usually pretty reliable.

I've heard the Santana story a few times, and it is mentioned in Bret's book but I don't think he names Santana specifically.
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Old 06-28-2009, 08:39 PM   #113
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And also why is it so hard for people to believe that WCW made plays for Bret Hart prior to 1996? Of course they made several attempts to sign him, why wouldn't they have? They'd have been fools not to try to snare Bret (one of the better workers in the business, and a WWF Superstar™) whenever his contract came around.

I could understand people struggling to believe that Mr. Morality agreed to dump on the IC title on WCW TV - and as it is speculative you never know whether or not he would have actually gone through with it - but the mere suggestion that WCW negotiated with him several times prior to 1996 shouldn't be a point of contention but more common sense, even if you never saw the reports at the time.
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Old 06-28-2009, 08:50 PM   #114
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I'm not denying that WCW attempted to court Bret before 1996. I'm just saying I had never heard that he had verbally agreed to a deal with WCW when his contract came up at the end of '91.
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Old 06-28-2009, 08:58 PM   #115
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A similar situation occured in 1990 too. Jim Neidhart had been fired whilst one half of the WWF World tag team champions The Hart Foundation, and made to drop the titles to The Rockers at a TV taping. So Bret and Jim negotiated to move over to WCW where they were reportedly going to wrestle under the name The Pink And Black Attack.

Pretty soon, Vince rehired Neidhart and smoothed things over, and The Harts were reinstated as champions with the title change never aired, and the explanation given that the ring rope (legit) broke during the match rendering the result void.
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Old 06-28-2009, 11:48 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Class Act Carl View Post
And also why is it so hard for people to believe that WCW made plays for Bret Hart prior to 1996? Of course they made several attempts to sign him, why wouldn't they have? They'd have been fools not to try to snare Bret (one of the better workers in the business, and a WWF Superstar™) whenever his contract came around.

I could understand people struggling to believe that Mr. Morality agreed to dump on the IC title on WCW TV - and as it is speculative you never know whether or not he would have actually gone through with it - but the mere suggestion that WCW negotiated with him several times prior to 1996 shouldn't be a point of contention but more common sense, even if you never saw the reports at the time.
Of course they tried to court him. I doubt anyone's trying to say that's unlikely. I'd take that on faith because...Well, duh. It's the other hald of the equation people have a problem with, this idea that Bret was power playing on it, because it's news to them. News to me, too.

Not that you're wrong, but it makes sense to be skeptical of such information, especially in an instance like this where the information seems to be poorly sourced.
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Old 06-29-2009, 03:47 PM   #117
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If Meltzer is a poor source then most insider wrestling news for the last 25 years has been "poorly sourced".
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:57 PM   #118
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"Poorly sourced," Carl. The problem isn't with Meltzer, it's with you. I mean, you could say it came from Dave, Bret Hart, or Jesus....
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Old 06-29-2009, 08:16 PM   #119
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Well I don't happen to have a link to a 1991 story, understandably. It's one of those "benefit of the doubt" deals, unfortunately.
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Old 06-29-2009, 08:22 PM   #120
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Right.... best I can find right now is an archive of an early internet insider reporter named Herb Kunze, who it appears was reporting insider wrestling news on the earliest traces of the internet as far back as the late 80s.

His sources seem to be mainly the dirt sheets of the time, and principally Meltzer and the Observer.

He reported the following on Jan 30th 1992:

Quote:
As everybody has reported, WCW apparently reached a deal with Bret
Hart for Bret to appear on the Clash of Champions live broadcast
on January 21st with his WWF Intercontinental belt. This was of
course meant to be a retaliatory blow against the WWF for using
the NWA belt when Flair jumped. Bret thought that his contract
was up, but, in fact, he can't give notice for another few months
and had to back out of the deal when he realized this. Bret knew
that he would be dropping the belt to the Mountie in Springfield
so that the title could be passed to Roddy Piper. Bret has been
promised the IC Title back at WrestleMania, but that seems kind
of unlikely, unless he turns heel. In the mean time, WCW insists
that Bret is going to come in later this year, and if he does in
fact give notice to the WWF, I'm sure we'll know since his push
will match that of the Berzerker.
Which differs slightly with my memories (ie. Bret already knowing he was due to drop to The Mountie before deciding to leave) but also corroborates the gist of what I said.

It is the best source I can find right now, short of digging up old magazines et al.
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