UFC runs a better wrestling company than the wwe does

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Good old butt hurt wrestling fans... so typical.

[The Mackem]

Interesting Bread.

UFC has been building for over 15 years though to where they are now, getting stronger with each year. It would be very hard for WWE to adopt UFC's exact style and to stay in business. What would they do with their TV shows? I think the audiences still want to see wrestling each week. What do you think they should do in general? Introduce weight classes etc?

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

They don't have to introduce weight classes. But I mean having divisions wouldn't hurt anyone... an IC title division with top contenders and so forth... and world title division etc... and a cruiserweight division so we don't have to see stupid shit like the big show vs. Evan Bourne.

I think NWA used to have a ranking system for who was in line for title shots. That makes every match actually mean something.

Alsol you don't have to have heel turns every 2 weeks, and tag teams always breaking up. More is less, and less is more. If you hold back on all the zany shit and try conduct it as an actual business and not a fucking freakshow, people will buy into it.

I mean think about it... Anderson Silva was the UFCs sweetheart... all it took to turn him heel was 2 shitty, god awful fights, now everyone wants to see him get beat more than anything in the world. He didn't hit anyone with a chair, he didn't curse the fans week in and week out... all he did was fight boring but still be the best. WWE obviously can't emulate this exact thing, but it's subtle. You could even parallel his heel turn to CM Punks ongoing heel turn. CM Punk didn't necesarilly do anything over the top or out of the ordinary, he just happened to do a few things to piss off the fans, now they boo him. They don't need to force everything the way they do without any rhyme or reason. Honestly, Smackdown is the only show that has a style anywhere close to resembling what I'm talking about. Competitive, athletic matches, for the most part realistic angles (other than pretty ricky and kane being involved in anything).

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

And I realize there's an IC title "division" but not really. It's jsut a bunch of random matches thrown together. If you actually selected a bunch of guys and palced them into the division, ranked them and had them wrestling for title shots every week, and to make there way up the ranks every week, it would make everything mean something. It'd make it seem like legit competition, even if it's "fake", people would still be interested.

[FourFifty]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead People acting more realisticaly to situations. I figured it was realism And this is a wrestling topic, because I want WWE to take notes from UFC on how to run a superior product. MMA is so much like wrestling it is ridiculous.

It's like you're telling 7up to take marketing advice from Jack Daniels, while you have no legitimate experience marketing beverages. While they do have some similarities, it's still apples and oranges.

[FourFifty]

[The Pope]

UFC is real.

[FourFifty]

Originally Posted by Dr.Perfect UFC is real.

Such a stunning addition to this thread. Quite profound. Mere words cannot express the excellence in your articulation. While one could make the argument that we have a modicum of gauche logic in our leitmotif the foundation of our argument remains the same.

However, there is one person who'll disagree with the separation of UFC and WWE.

SPOILER: show

Dale, you have a hell of an ally in this man.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by FourFifty It's like you're telling 7up to take marketing advice from Jack Daniels, while you have no legitimate experience marketing beverages. While they do have some similarities, it's still apples and oranges.

No matter how real the ufc, they are still marketing characters, just like the wwe does. To not see that is completely blind.

I would compare it to Labatt taking advice from Jack Daniels. Beer and hard liquor, they aren't exactly the same but they have many, many similarities. Namely, they both get you wasted.

Also, since you're completely out to lunch I guess I should let you know, MMA's deepest roots are from pro wrestling. Listen to the Bill Simmons podcast with Dave Meltzer. Though I guess you know more than him as well.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by FourFifty It's like you're telling 7up to take marketing advice from Jack Daniels, while you have no legitimate experience marketing beverages. While they do have some similarities, it's still apples and oranges.

It's more like if he was telling Coke to take advice from Royal Crown after RC managed to overtake them in almost all respects.

Pro Wrestling and UFC, like it or not, largely have the same audience. WWE still trumpets their appeal in the adult male category, because that's their core audience, even if it's no longer their target audience. I know this whole thing asks you to go beyond your childish sense of "self-entitlement=reality," but try for a moment.

The platforms, while "different" in your own estimation, can benefit greatly from one another, or in this case, one can benefit greatly from the success of the other. Just because one is an actual sport, and the other is for guys who aren't ready to come out of the closet does not mean that lessons learned from one cannot be applied to the other. This has already been covered in this thread, to which the only rebuttals you seem to be able to offer break down into "that's different, damn it!" Which really isn't true. Not in any meaningful sense.

[IRodC]

Lesnar (and maybe Rampage) are the only characters they are marketing, most of the other guys they market are great fighters with personalities ( you know, something that people tend to have).

Some of the guys that were in Pride did pro wrestling for money not because they wanted to market themselves at characters. Sakuraba was one of the few that came from pro wrestling to "shoot-fighting" and he still wasnt a character, just a great fighter.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by IRodC Lesnar (and maybe Rampage) are the only characters they are marketing, most of the other guys they market are great fighters with personalities ( you know, something that people tend to have). Some of the guys that were in Pride did pro wrestling for money not because they wanted to market themselves at characters. Sakuraba was one of the few that came from pro wrestling to "shoot-fighting" and he still wasnt a character, just a great fighter.

Lulz you have no idea what you're talking about. Just because someone isn't completely over the top does not mean they aren't a character. Sakuraba had the flash and finesse of any character. Josh Barnett, the baby faced assassin? The guy is a total pro wrestling character, he knows how to pander to a crowd as well as anyone. Wanderlei the axer murderer Silva? They fed the guy a bunch of Japanese cans to turn him into the most terrifying man in MMA, his character is that he's a fighting machine.

UFC? Matt Hughes is a character, a classic heel, but well respected nonetheless. GSP is a classic baby face, people don't cheer him because his matches are overly exciting, since they're so one sided, they cheer him because he's pure class inside and out of the octagon. The Iceman Chuck Lidell? Purely a character, he's known for the one punch knockout, that's what people associate with him, that's his character. Lyoto Machida just brought Karate back... he cut a beauty promo after his fight with Evans, now the fans love him. He represents something they loved as kids, in karate.

Randy Couture? The old man, the grizzled veteran that you always want to win. Nogueira? The classic beaten up punch drunk warrior who never backs down from everyone and always fights back.

Most of these guys are characters, they aren't playing one in all cases, they just ARE characters. It's how you get behind fighters. It's why certain guys can't headline shows, because no matter how fucking good they are, they are just too boring and don't appeal to an audience.

Use your fucking head and stop talking out of your ass.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

People are so scared of admitting pro wrestling and mma are alike... I just don't understand why.

[Kris P Lettus]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight WWE still trumpets their appeal in the adult male category, because that's their core audience, even if it's no longer their target audience.

UFC 100 sold over 1.5 million beating out the three of the WWE biggest PPV's of this past year combined..


* WrestleMania – 970,000
* Backlash – 185,000
* Judgment Day – 235,000

[Kris P Lettus]

Sorry for getting technical and throwing facts around..

Also, stfu with this moving this thread to the MMA forum shit.. This is a topic where Jewstead is saying the WWE should follow what Zuffa has done with their product.. This is about changing prowrestling and not MMA..

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Yeah UFC outdrew WWE huge with that number. Think about where people are putting their money. Both ppvs are for about 40 bucks, and people aren't going to pay 80 bucks for both ppvs. People are dishing the big bucks for UFC and not for the WWE. I WONDER WHY. It must be because the two producst have absolutely nothing to do with one another

[St. Jimmy]

K. We're just gonna spam the MMA subforum from now on. Thanks.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by St. Jimmy K. We're just gonna spam the MMA subforum from now on. Thanks.

lol you're such a fuckwit

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Do you not realize I'm a pro wrestling fan? Like are you all actually retarded?

[Kris P Lettus]

Originally Posted by St. Jimmy K. We're just gonna spam the MMA subforum from now on. Thanks.

And we will ban you..

[St. Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Kris P Lettus And we will ban you..

GO for it.

[Kris P Lettus]

I'm not gonna get you banned if you don't break any rules..

[#1-norm-fan]

Pretty sure the lead UFC has in PPV Buyrates is completely killed and then some by WWE's lead in merchandising. Just throwing that out there. I think WWE needs to do some things UFC like though. Promoting win/loss records being one.

[#1-norm-fan]

On top of that, UFC having more PPV buys might actually have something to do with it not being visible 4 times a week on free tv, therefore forcing people to actually pay to see it...

[Kris P Lettus]

Both of those statements are bullshit..

I see alot more TapOut shirts around these days than John Cena shirts.. Also, some form of MMA is on tv every day whether it is UFC Unleashed, TUF, WEC, HDNET Fights, Bodog, Fight Zone TV, etc, etc, etc..

[#1-norm-fan]

How many times can you see Brock Lesnar fight on free tv between PPV fights?

[Kris P Lettus]

Possibly 5 cause that's how many times he's fought MMA.. Actually, 4 cause his first fight was in K-1 which Zuffa doesn't own..

[FourFifty]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead People are so scared of admitting pro wrestling and mma are alike... I just don't understand why.

I've said they're alike.
Coke and Jack Daniels are both beverages.
Apples and Oranges are both fruits.
Yea, I had an abstract meaning with my metaphors, but it's not my fault no one caught on.

However for as many similarities they have, they have even more differences. One is a show, one is a contest. One has corporate sponsers plastered in the middle of the ring, the other has a clean ring. One is based around people trying to hurt each other, the other is based on people trying to look like they're trying to hurt each other. One championship means your the best, the other means you're marketable. One only has action inside the ring, the other can have home invasions.

Do I need to go on?
So let's make WWE more like UFC, and it'll go bankrupt. If they based things even halfway on athetic preformance then their top stars would need to find work elsewhere. The main event will be polluted with a cornucopia of people that most fans don't care about.
In addaiton to that 2 or 3 shows monthly will prevent anyone from making any money. Let's go ahead and make Noid's wet dream come true and give Val Venis a major title, and watch everyone lose shirts.

Apples and oranges.

Also, if you're not a wrestling fan then why are you here? Don't spam this board just because you're butt hurt because MMA is a subforum while wrestling has more than one forum.

[Funky Fly]

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan How many times can you see Brock Lesnar fight on free tv between PPV fights?

You know that people can't actually fight that many times and not have severe health problems, right?

That is the only drawback to real fighting. The way some of these guys are, if they could do it every day, you know they would. But they can't, not without getting brain damaged. Never mind that it's on pay per view.

The point of this thread is to look at WWE's shortcomings and how they've allowed MMA to take their place. At the height of the nWo, I had a wolfpac shirt and you know what used to happen? Every time I wore it, didn't matter where I was people would throw up the wolfpac hand sign or the 4 life hand sign. Complete strangers. I could wear a WWE shirt now and people would just be like "you big gay."

WWE got complacent once they were on top with no competition. They stopped trying to be the best because they were the best on a technicality. They started putting a stop to all the things that made them great. They held down a lot of people and elevated other just to be fed to HHH. Meanwhile, MMA was picking up in the rest of the world. UFC was reorganizing into a legit organization with weightclasses, rules and real athletes. Where were all of Kurt Angle's contemporaries going when he was on top of the WWE? MMA. It was slowly rising in popularity, while WWE had been steadily losing ground.

And it wasn't from competition. They were doing it to themselves. And then it happened: Spike TV, looking to fill the gap left by the WWE signs with the UFC. Now there's UFC Unleashed, UFC's greatest Knockouts ,UFC Fight Night, The Ultimate Fighter. Hell, they've even shown PPVs held in Europe for free on Spike. Now how do you beat marketing like free PPVs?

I mean, it's not like the WWE isn't trying with the cash giveaways, Donald Trump and celebrity hosts, but it's a case of one step forward, three steeps back. It's not enough. And St Jimmy, #1-wwf-fan, 450 and IRodC, we don't say these things because we want the WWE to fail. We say them because we want them to do well. We want them to be exciting and entertaining. Why wouldn't we? We're wrestling fans. If I weren't I'd be posting at The People's MMA Website.

[FourFifty]

The only thing worse than arm chair booking by fans is arm chair marketing by douche bags who aren't fans.

[#1-norm-fan]

Originally Posted by Funky Fly You know that people can't actually fight that many times and not have severe health problems, right?

I'm not saying "shame on UFC for not having it's guys fight twice a week." That's exactly why they don't fight three times a week. But that also means when they do fight it's going to cause people to spend money on it because that's their only opportunity to see them.

[HeartBreakMan2k]

Really it's simple stuff like 3 on one attacks should be complete domination. That's what would bring an element of realism back. WWE should book using logic. If A happens, than B should ensue. If person A beats person B, than person A is better and should be in title contention where as person B should not. I think you guys are completely over-reacting to good 'ol Crashbang and that's really all he was implying.

[#1-norm-fan]

Originally Posted by Kris P Lettus Possibly 5 cause that's how many times he's fought MMA.. Actually, 4 cause his first fight was in K-1 which Zuffa doesn't own..

You can see Brock Lesnar fight 5 times on free TV between fights?

[Funky Fly]

Originally Posted by FourFifty I've said they're alike. Coke and Jack Daniels are both beverages. Apples and Oranges are both fruits. Yea, I had an abstract meaning with my metaphors, but it's not my fault no one caught on. However for as many similarities they have, they have even more differences. One is a show, one is a contest. One has corporate sponsers plastered in the middle of the ring, the other has a clean ring. One is based around people trying to hurt each other, the other is based on people trying to look like they're trying to hurt each other. One championship means your the best, the other means you're marketable. One only has action inside the ring, the other can have home invasions. Do I need to go on? So let's make WWE more like UFC, and it'll go bankrupt. If they based things even halfway on athetic preformance then their top stars would need to find work elsewhere. The main event will be polluted with a cornucopia of people that most fans don't care about. In addaiton to that 2 or 3 shows monthly will prevent anyone from making any money. Let's go ahead and make Noid's wet dream come true and give Val Venis a major title, and watch everyone lose shirts. Apples and oranges. Also, if you're not a wrestling fan then why are you here? Don't spam this board just because you're butt hurt because MMA is a subforum while wrestling has more than one forum.

It's not even a case of changes to product, so much as it is a need to refrain from hurtful practices:

-They need to build credible new stars. They put the title on Benoit after a 6 month build and it was epic. They put the title on Randy Orton out of nowhere and watered him down and it failed.

-They need to give the core audience what they want. The core audience has always been yound men. What do they want? Action. That doesn't mean you can't have Cena and Mysterio pander to the kids, it just means let's not make it the major focus of the show.

-Let's have a little less holding down of people who you don't personally like even though the fans are all over them. No more RVDs and Chris Jerichos being overlooked despite being the most popular guys around. If the fans want them, then push them. Don't cut the legs out of the pushes unless the fans cool off on them. Or better yet, take them in a new direction and try to get the fans back into them. Look what it did for Christian.

[Funky Fly]

Originally Posted by FourFifty The only thing worse than arm chair booking by fans is arm chair marketing by douche bags who aren't fans.

I'm neither arm chair booking nor am I arm chair marketting. I'm pointng out what's worked and what hasn't. Call me all the names you like, but the WWE has steadily lost ground between the attitude era and now: FACT. The UFC and MMA in general has been steadily rising in that time: FACT. The UFC exploded in popularity since signing with Spike TV: FACT. I'm not trying to say wrestling sucks, because it doesn't and fuck anyone who says so. I'm saying the WWE is digging a hole it can't get out of and some of the solutions to its problems lie in what the UFC is doing. Note that I said some. Answers and inspiration can come from strange places, so is it so hard to believe that the UFC might hold some of the solutions to WWE's problems?

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan I'm not saying "shame on UFC for not having it's guys fight twice a week." That's exactly why they don't fight three times a week. But that also means when they do fight it's going to cause people to spend money on it because that's their only opportunity to see them.

Originally Posted by Funky Fly Now there's UFC Unleashed, UFC's greatest Knockouts ,UFC Fight Night, The Ultimate Fighter. Hell, they've even shown PPVs held in Europe for free on Spike. Now how do you beat marketing like free PPVs?

Originally Posted by HeartBreakMan2k Really it's simple stuff like 3 on one attacks should be complete domination. That's what would bring an element of realism back. WWE should book using logic. If A happens, than B should ensue. If person A beats person B, than person A is better and should be in title contention where as person B should not. I think you guys are completely over-reacting to good 'ol Crashbang and that's really all he was implying.

Correct. No more super saiyan shit. Come on. We're not asking for much here.

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan You can see Brock Lesnar fight 5 times on free TV between fights?

They showed his title win against Randy Couture just yesterday.

[Kris P Lettus]

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan You can see Brock Lesnar fight 5 times on free TV between fights?

If they decided to highlight him on UFC Unleashed, yes..

Not really "free tv" anyway cause it's cable..

[HeartBreakMan2k]

And you don't need to watch guys fight 3 times a week in the UFC, you know why? Because every match matters! There are title implications in every single match, that's the other thing WWE misses. You know that 85% of their shows are just throw-away matches.

With that, I don't need to see Brock fight every week, because I know when I see Cain fight that it's building towards a fight with Brock. Their midcarders matter.

[Emperor Smeat]

WWE biggest problem has been occurring since they publicly focused RAW as their flagship show which means every year or when they do trades, they keep weakening their other shows when RAW seems to be getting stale or when Smackdown seems to be a better show than RAW.
They were on a decline once they bought WCW and ECW but its not until they focused on the Brand split on just RAW that most of the current problems that could have been fixed seem to be still going on.

[DaVe]

Yeah, there's some stuff on both sides of the argument I agree with. WWE really could do with throwing some logic into their booking in order to be bought better by the fans, etc.

But I'm also with #1-wwf-fan on the fact that while UFC 100 apparently way out-bought WWE's big PPVs this year, there is a crapload more to the WWE as a successful wrestling company than just PPV buys. They run way more TV (and movies and books which has pluses and minuses), way more merchandise sales, etc.

Vince judges how well he's running the WWE through profit earned. I have no idea what the UFC is like with regard to profit, but I don't think the WWE would be too far behind... if not ahead.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by HeartBreakMan2k Really it's simple stuff like 3 on one attacks should be complete domination. That's what would bring an element of realism back. WWE should book using logic. If A happens, than B should ensue. If person A beats person B, than person A is better and should be in title contention where as person B should not. I think you guys are completely over-reacting to good 'ol Crashbang and that's really all he was implying.