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Old 07-30-2009, 10:26 PM   #1601
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Pujols would be the worst, he's on track to becoming one of the greatest baseball players ever.

No offense to Griffey, I thought he was the man growing up but let's get serious - he's fallen off big time.
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:31 PM   #1602
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It's called aging. He's like 40 years old. Who cares if he's fallen off? He had 10+ dominant years and has over 600 hrs.
Willie Mays fell off bigtime too. U serious?
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:31 PM   #1603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innovator View Post
Ripken, Jeter, and Griffey Jr. Those 3 would hurt
Can't forget about quality pitchers like a Maddux or Halladay since pitchers almost match the number of hitters and everyday players that were busted so far.
Out of those 3, Griffey Jr would upset me the most since he problem was my favorite player and hated how once he got hurt with the Reds, his career and home run chase became a "What If".
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:32 PM   #1604
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P.S., Griffey was on a better pace than Pujols is. Pace and accomplishment are two different things
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:35 PM   #1605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus Shuttlesworth View Post
No offense to Griffey, I thought he was the man growing up but let's get serious - he's fallen off big time.
The Sports Guy said it best. It's refreshing to see a guy go out of the game the old fashioned way, by clinging onto a job.
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:38 PM   #1606
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Like Willie Mays final days with the Mets? That was a bigger fall off than Griffey's ever seen. He's considered the greatest baseball player of alltime.
Just don't get how someones later years and injuries reflect on their existing accomplishments.

Who cares if Pujols might hit 600 hrs? Griffey HAS hit 600 hrs, and was every bit as epic in his prime (which lasted longer than Pujols has thus far)
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:38 PM   #1607
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I get you are a Griffney fan, not saying it wouldn't be bad if he got caught - just saying Pujols would be the worst right now. He's currently on pace, not 10 years ago, to being one of the greatest of all time. Him getting caught right now would be a huge blow to baseball then if you compile that with A-Rod getting caught - it'd be pretty bad.

And Griffey wasn't on a better pace than Pujols is right now, but alright. Pujols has never hit below .314 in any of his seasons, come on
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:39 PM   #1608
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I'd be more skeptic of a 39/40 year old hitting .280 with 35 HRs than a guy whose body is breaking down
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:42 PM   #1609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus Shuttlesworth View Post
I get you are a Griffney fan, not saying it wouldn't be bad if he got caught - just saying Pujols would be the worst right now. He's currently on pace, not 10 years ago, to being one of the greatest of all time. Him getting caught right now would be a huge blow to baseball then if you compile that with A-Rod getting caught - it'd be pretty bad.

And Griffey wasn't on a better pace than Pujols is right now, but alright. Pujols has never hit below .314 in any of his seasons, come on

It's not really about me being a Griffey fan though. It's about what he was as a player. The notion that he was hot for a while but had a dropoff just seemed irrelevant since everyone has a dropoff and that doesn't change existing stats.


I agree with you that Pujols would be worse for baseball right now though. Only because he's currently playing though.
I was simply defending what Griffey has actually done. It would be equally or more devestating to actual baseball fans since existing quality is tarnished, rather than potential.

Also, Griffey was on a better pace than Pujols is right now. Check out their home run production and age.
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:49 PM   #1610
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Check out their homerun production and get back to you? Are we talking about who is the better player or homerun hitter?

If you compare the stats, Pujols first 8 seasons in the majors have been pretty incredible and outside of homeruns, he has Griffey beat in just about every category (including slugging percentage).
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:51 PM   #1611
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Albert Pujols is currently 29 years old. He has 353 home runs.

At 29 years old Ken Griffey Jr. had 400.

He was actually a little younger at that point than Pujols is now, but that's only a few months so it doesn't matter.

His dropoff came as a combination of age, and injury. Pujols is prone to those same things. He may or may not slow, but regardless of what we think will happen in the future, there's no denying that at the same point in their careers Griffey was on a better pace than Pujols.
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:51 PM   #1612
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I get it he has more homeruns but does that make him a better player? That's the only thing you keep referencing so I feel like we are talking about 2 different things.
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:52 PM   #1613
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Well when discussing the steroids issue I assumed we were talking about power numbers here. I think the biggest blow about Pujols would be that people consider him a pure alternative to Bonds and A Rod
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:54 PM   #1614
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I'm saying Pujols getting caught would be awful because he's on track to becoming one of the greatest baseball players ever - not homerun hitter.
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:55 PM   #1615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus Shuttlesworth View Post
I get it he has more homeruns but does that make him a better player? That's the only thing you keep referencing so I feel like we are talking about 2 different things.
It doesn't. I was talking about home runs but I thought that was what was at stake here.

As a player, I think Griffey in his prime is comparable. There's more of an argument to be had. In that case, I don't think you're wrong but I don't think I am either. Here's why:

Griffey was never as big of a threat for average, but he was no slouch. He was a .300+ hitter in his prime years, and a HR and RBI machine just like Pujols.
He was just as dominating and revered among all baseball fans, and was considered to be on track to be one of the best to ever play the game in all aspects.
Griffey was a better "all around player." He didn't pose the triple crown threat that Pujols did, but he was equal or greater to him in power categories and a far bigger threat on the basepath and in the field.
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:58 PM   #1616
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Griffey basically entered Willie Mays territory. Pujols is more comparable to a Mickey Mantle, or Carl Yazstrsemski.

So I guess it's a debate of what means more.
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:01 PM   #1617
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Aren't there questions to whether or not Pujols is actually 29 years old?
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:01 PM   #1618
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Quote:
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I'd be more skeptic of a 39/40 year old hitting .280 with 35 HRs than a guy whose body is breaking down
I think this is how much a surprise most of the names released are becoming in baseball. While majority of fans become suspicious of older players doing well because in the past that was not as common, it makes younger or less big name players able to be off the steroid spotlight. It sort of explains why people would question why a no-name or average player would do steroids if it gave them no big result since they were not part of the whole debate of "legit or roider" that bigger name players get.
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:06 PM   #1619
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It's a shame that you can't improve as a baseball player anymore. If you play on an average level for years and then enter a new prime where you put up above average numbers, you'll be accused and suspected of steroid use, even if you're clean.
That's a shame.
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:14 PM   #1620
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Pujols is a machine - I honestly didn't even realize how good he really was until I just compared Griff and Pujols stats to make sure my stance was correct. After reviewing the stats, I def think my stance was correct. One thing that stood out was that Griffey's best OPS would be Pujols' 2nd worst of his career - that's fucking ridiculous. Pujols slugging percentage has also been a lot better when you compare the prime vs prime. Griffey does have him in the field though, with long streak of GGs, honestly dunno about the basepaths though. Neither is really a huge threat to steal but I guess you could argue Griffey is faster - however Pujols has lead the league in total bases a ton of times so I dunno.

I knew Pujols was good (obviously I said he was on track to becoming one of the best ever) but his stats are crazy. I didn't realize his shit was THIS good

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...ujolal01.shtml

But yeah Pujols could be like 35 right now though, you never know lol
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:16 PM   #1621
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It's a shame that you can't improve as a baseball player anymore. If you play on an average level for years and then enter a new prime where you put up above average numbers, you'll be accused and suspected of steroid use, even if you're clean.
That's a shame.
It's really not a shame, if the player's union wasn't trying to protect steroid uses these guys could piss in a cup anytime they wanted.
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:28 PM   #1622
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"I'd like to thank George Mitchell one last time for doing his best to keep our boys out of this PED mess. You tried, George. You tried." - Bill Simmons, lol
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:31 PM   #1623
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If Albert Pujols isn't on that list man, he's gonna be my favorite player. (LEGEND)
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:56 PM   #1624
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In referance to Griffey, his injuries really took a toll on how fans percieve him today. He was like the Grant Hill of baseball for a while. It's almost like you tend to forget how dominant he was in his younger days because of all the missed time
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Old 07-31-2009, 12:00 AM   #1625
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Nice to know the Red Sox cheated to win the world series
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Old 07-31-2009, 09:33 AM   #1626
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Yeah, this is crazy....Griffey was the most dominate hitter in baseball. He was the next big thing. In the mid 90s it was assumed that 61 and 755 were his, on a plate, and it was only a matter of time. He was the best defensive Centerfielder of his time, and of the previous 25 years at least.

I loved Griffey. It killed me to see his injuries ruin his legacy. The guy basically lost 5 years of his career, and is still one of the best outfielders to ever play the game. That is how good he was.
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Old 07-31-2009, 09:34 AM   #1627
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If Frank Thomas and Ken Griffey are revealed to have used, I will have lost all faith in players
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Old 07-31-2009, 09:46 AM   #1628
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I feel the same way about Larry Walker and Greg Maddux.
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Old 07-31-2009, 12:04 PM   #1629
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Jarrod Washburn to the Tigers for two minor league pitchers
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Old 07-31-2009, 12:12 PM   #1630
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Give the rings back
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Old 07-31-2009, 12:13 PM   #1631
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A-Rod too. wait he doesn't have any
I Love NY
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Old 07-31-2009, 12:22 PM   #1632
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Ortiz's homerun off Mariano is Game 4 should be taken away
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Old 07-31-2009, 12:32 PM   #1633
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Old 07-31-2009, 12:43 PM   #1634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Vito 22 View Post
Jarrod Washburn to the Tigers for two minor league pitchers
Jackson, Verlander, and now Washburn all in one rotation. All are in the top 10 in ERA in the AL.

That's a serious trio Detroit got now. If only D-Train was back to his normal self..........
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Old 07-31-2009, 01:25 PM   #1635
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Bronson Arroyo believe his name might be on the list for taking Andro.

"Arroyo said he started taking taking andro after 1998, after a season with the Pirates' Double-A affiliate. "Andro made me feel great, I felt like a monster. I felt like I could jump and hit my head on the basketball rim," he said, according to the report."

lol wtf?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4368436
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Old 07-31-2009, 01:29 PM   #1636
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Anyone else cool with the idea of the MLB introducing the Steroids Game to next years All-Star weekend? All present and former caught Steroid users are welcome to play
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Old 07-31-2009, 02:08 PM   #1637
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Orlando Cabrera headed to the Twins.

Victor Martinez looks to be on his way to Boston.
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Old 07-31-2009, 02:36 PM   #1638
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Word is that the Mets are gonna get Adam LaRoche if the Red Sox complete the swap for Victor Martinez. Probably wouldn't cost anything because the Sox aren't gonna keep LaRoche if they get Martinez. Seems like it would be a separate deal though and not a 3-way trade.
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Old 07-31-2009, 02:44 PM   #1639
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I'd rather let Murph play everyday. Not a big fan if this trade does go down.
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Old 07-31-2009, 02:54 PM   #1640
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If they don't give anything significant up, I'm fine with getting him. He's traditionally a good second-half hitter and if he sucks he can just ride the pine and be written off as a gamble.
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