Better Half of HBK's Career

[redoneja]

Pretty straightforward. Which half of HBK's career has been better in WWE? For argument's sake let's consider his heel turn into singles competition through his back injury the "first half" (1991/2-1998) and his return from injury through today as his "second half" (2002-present).

[redoneja]

Please cite your references with Chicago/Turabian style footnotes or endnotes. Thanks.

[HTrain90]

With all due respect to the modern incarnation of WWE, there is absolutely no way that Shawn is as good as he once was. His work in 1996 may stand alone as the absolute best in-ring work anyone has ever done. He worked 5* matches at every single PPV (besides Beware of Dog, where the power outages caused a dead crowd and the BS finish ruined it), he worked every Monday in the top spot tearing the house down, and he carried the company at a time when it was desperately needed. In 1996, there was Shawn and Taker - that's it. Shawn held the belt and made a lot of people look good en route to (in my opinion) the single greatest championship reign of all time. Mick Foley said it best: "Shawn was a great champion at a time when the company needed a great champion - wrestling was not the 'in' thing and was not as hot as it once was or once would be again. But Shawn was the glue guy that held everything together." High praise from a guy very in-tune with the business.

[Juan]

That's a very interesting and unbiased perspective coming from an "HBK mark since 1995"

[Loose Cannon]

good question and I don't really know how to answer this in all honestly. I came in hear ready to post first half without even thinking. But then I thought about it and he's really had an amazing 2nd half career. He hasn't had a bad match since he's come back and he's wrestled near the top or at the top of the cards on every show.

I have no idea how to call this

[McLegend]

Excellent question. I infact might do full Analyzation of this question later.

However if I do no one read it, and I will have egg all over my face.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by HTrain90 He worked 5* matches at every single PPV (besides Beware of Dog

come on dude

BTW, HBK is my favorite wrestler of all-time.

[Favre4Ever]

First i'll say that despite the fact that I regularly watched RAW and most PPV's starting around 1995, I was also 9. So I may be predisposed to the second run if only because i'm much closer to it than the first.

I'm going to say the second run. Let me first state that there was nothing like "the oooooooooold" HBK. Now, that being said, despite his shortage of championships this second go, I think this could legitimately be considered his better half if only because of his incredible consistency in the ring if nothing else. Michaels has had virtually the same moveset for 15 and he manages to put on exciting, memorable matches nearly every PPV he headlines.

What put me over the edge is memorable matches.

First Run

HBK vs. The Undertaker
HBK vs. Bret Hart: 60 Minute Iron Man Match
HBK vs. Sid
HBK vs. Austin
...and, of course, Survivor Series 1997.

Second Run

HBK vs. Triple H: Ladder Match, TLC Match, Hell in a Cell Match, Triple Threat Match including Chris Benoit
HBK vs Chris Jericho
HBK vs. Kurt Angle
HBK vs. Randy Orton
HBK vs. The Undertaker

I think the Angle match alone might actually be what swayed it. But also, there are just to many great feuds and matches he has been involved in to count during this second run. 2002-2010 all the way.

[McLegend]

To be fair the Survior Series match in Montreal wasn't good.

[SupaNovaHBK]

well shawn micahels in the last 3 years i think has been in the number one match of the year if im correct.

HBK vs CENA at mania wasnt voted the match of the year, but ther bout the next night on raw was. then you had HBK vs ric flair at the next mania, followed by HBK vs taker.

pretty good

[The Franchise]

Not sure how the ladder match with Razor isnt on that list

[Favre4Ever]

It was memorable is what put it over.

Also didn't put in the Razor Ramon Wrestlemania match and the Flair retirement match.

[Favre4Ever]

Originally Posted by The Franchise Not sure how the ladder match with Razor isnt on that list

LOL as I post it.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

The fact that my 3 current favorite matches involve him from the second part of his career pretty much forces me to vote for the second half. That's not taking anything away from the first half though.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do? The fact that my 3 current favorite matches involve him from the second part of his career pretty much forces me to vote for the second half. That's not taking anything away from the first half though.

Which 3?

Two of my favs WWE ones of all-time are from his second half (vs Taker and vs Flair)

[The Franchise]

actually nevermind I think HBK/Razor at SummerSlam 95 ranks higher on my list than HBK/Flair

[The One]

It's like asking which era of Ric Flair was the best...80's NWA or 2000's WWE. A lot of people would say NWA era, but remember that it is because of 2000's run with WWE that he became the icon he is today. Before WWE brought him back and touted him around as the legend he's always deserved to be, he was a footnote. The best thing in the business, but that only a sections of the nation truly had exposure to him, and sadly his tenure in WCW made him into a joke rather than what he should have been all along; the greatest wrestler to walk the isle.

Same kind of thing with Shawn. When he was at his personal performance peak, it was a time when not a lot of people were watching. 1996 and 1997 for HBK is the beginning and the end for any discussion as to who the greatest in ring performer of all time is, in my obviously biased opinion (but hey we're talking opinions here right?). But had it not been for his return, he would have fallen to the wayside as a legend who ultimately is forgotten about. If Shawn didn't come back, he would be where Bret Hart is. A large loyal fanbase, but rarely mentioned with the likes of Hogan, Austin or Rock by people outside of the IWC (or Canada). Shawn's second half has been littered with AMAZING performances, and if you ask me to point to the best match Shawn Michaels has ever had, I'd say Taker at Mania in a heartbeat. But at the end of the day, for me, nothing can touch who Shawn Michaels was for the mid 90's. In my eyes he redefined what a wrestler could be...it went from strong men doing scripted match to artists telling stories. He simply was; the Showstopper.

TOVO Fact: Tovo thinks people who put clothes on their dogs should be beaten.

[Favre4Ever]

The One, that match against the Undertaker was a fucking heartstopper. It was amazing. But it is REAL hard for me to watch that match and then watch his match against Kurt Angle at 'Mania 21 and not say that that match is the greatest.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Originally Posted by The Franchise Which 3? Two of my favs WWE ones of all-time are from his second half (vs Taker and vs Flair)

1. HBK's vs. HHH No DQ (HBK's return match at Summerslam.) The lead up was amazing, and the psychology in the match was phenomenal.

2. HBK vs. Flair

3. HBK vs Taker

Not only were they great wrestling matches, but they all had amazing buildups. Also, I'm pretty sure HBK vs Flair has the best ending to any match ever.

[Jeritron]

Well, my opinion would be that Shawn was certainly in his prime as far everything goes during his first run.
His promos and character were better then. So were the majority of his fueds. It's when he developed his legacy, and ran on top with the title and eventually DX.
Still, it doesn't mean he was "better" back then. He's still just as good in many ways.

As far as match quality goes, it's tough. In his original run, he was working with peers and putting on classic matches naturally.
Matches like Shawn vs Bret, and Shawn vs Razor were not dream matches at the time. They were matches between the wrestlers of the time, and they became classics.

Since he's returned, he's put on just as many, if not more, classics. BUT....they've done a much better job of realizing his legacy, and booking to his ability.
He's put into dream matches with Undertaker, Angle, and Jericho with the full knowledge that he's the best of alltime, and those matches are given the freedom to shine.
So essentially, one era is the building of his legacy, and the other is reeping the benefits to further it.


In either era, he's the best from bell to bell.

[Executioner]

Originally Posted by The One It's like asking which era of Ric Flair was the best...80's NWA or 2000's WWE. A lot of people would say NWA era, but remember that it is because of 2000's run with WWE that he became the icon he is today. Before WWE brought him back and touted him around as the legend he's always deserved to be, he was a footnote. The best thing in the business, but that only a sections of the nation truly had exposure to him, and sadly his tenure in WCW made him into a joke rather than what he should have been all along; the greatest wrestler to walk the isle. Same kind of thing with Shawn. When he was at his personal performance peak, it was a time when not a lot of people were watching. 1996 and 1997 for HBK is the beginning and the end for any discussion as to who the greatest in ring performer of all time is, in my obviously biased opinion (but hey we're talking opinions here right?). But had it not been for his return, he would have fallen to the wayside as a legend who ultimately is forgotten about. If Shawn didn't come back, he would be where Bret Hart is. A large loyal fanbase, but rarely mentioned with the likes of Hogan, Austin or Rock by people outside of the IWC (or Canada). Shawn's second half has been littered with AMAZING performances, and if you ask me to point to the best match Shawn Michaels has ever had, I'd say Taker at Mania in a heartbeat. But at the end of the day, for me, nothing can touch who Shawn Michaels was for the mid 90's. In my eyes he redefined what a wrestler could be...it went from strong men doing scripted match to artists telling stories. He simply was; the Showstopper. TOVO Fact: Tovo thinks people who put clothes on their dogs should be beaten.

Couldn't be put any clearer.

[The Franchise]

All amazing matches

Yeah "I'm sorry, I love you" was incredible

[Favre4Ever]

We just need a best match poll thread to settle this.

[Juan]

Originally Posted by Jeritron Well, my opinion would be that Shawn was certainly in his prime as far everything goes during his first run. His promos and character were better then. So were the majority of his fueds. It's when he developed his legacy, and ran on top with the title and eventually DX. Still, it doesn't mean he was "better" back then. He's still just as good in many ways. As far as match quality goes, it's tough. In his original run, he was working with peers and putting on classic matches naturally. Matches like Shawn vs Bret, and Shawn vs Razor were not dream matches at the time. They were matches between the wrestlers of the time, and they became classics. Since he's returned, he's put on just as many, if not more, classics. BUT....they've done a much better job of realizing his legacy, and booking to his ability. He's put into dream matches with Undertaker, Angle, and Jericho with the full knowledge that he's the best of alltime, and those matches are given the freedom to shine. So essentially, one era is the building of his legacy, and the other is reeping the benefits to further it. In either era, he's the best from bell to bell.

agreed

[McLegend]

Got to weigh in the fact that he worked a lot more in the 90's then he did in his 2nd go around.

[Jeritron]

Originally Posted by McLegend Got to weigh in the fact that he worked a lot more in the 90's then he did in his 2nd go around.

Maybe from week to week, but as far as television presence and major matches go it's been almost equal. 7-8 years

[McLegend]

Originally Posted by Jeritron Maybe from week to week, but as far as television presence and major matches go it's been almost equal. 7-8 years

I'm factoring in everything here.

[Jeritron]

Well then yes, he worked more house shows back then

[McLegend]

And worked them harder.

[Jeritron]

Keep in mind that health and age are a factor. Just because a guy isn't doing as much, doesn't mean he's not working as hard.
In fact, he probably works way harder everytime he steps in the ring than he did in the 90s, where his youth and talent allowed it to come easily.

Same can be said for a guy like Taker, who may be slower than he once was, but is clearly working his ass off harder than ever out there.

[McLegend]

Originally Posted by Jeritron Keep in mind that health and age are a factor. Just because a guy isn't doing as much, doesn't mean he's not working as hard. In fact, he probably works way harder everytime he steps in the ring than he did in the 90s, where his youth and talent allowed it to come easily. Same can be said for a guy like Taker, who may be slower than he once was, but is clearly working his ass off harder than ever out there.

It's definitely smarter and better for your career to go the pick your spots route. Much better infact. I don't begrudge it at all.

However if you are you are deciding on which side of his career it has to be factored in.

[Jeritron]

Depends on what you value too. We haven't seen many, or any of these house show matches.
What is more valuable, having solid matches every week and 1 classic every few years? or having standard house matches, and 1 or 2 classics a year?

It boils to down to what your criteria is. Workrate and overall consistency is different than an overall body of work.

To me, I could care less if he's not working many house or tv matches, but choose to focus on the fact that he's pumped out a bunch of instant classics.

In other words, I'd rather watch him work 5 mediocre matches with Kozlov and then tear the house down with Taker, than see him have 5 entertaining but forgettable matches with Jeff Jarrett.

Either way, I voted for his first run. That's because I also factored in things like promos, fueds, his run at the top, and the fact that he was going out there and making classics happen from scratch.

[McLegend]

Originally Posted by Jeritron Depends on what you value too. We haven't seen many, or any of these house show matches. What is more valuable, having solid matches every week and 1 classic every few years? or having standard house matches, and 1 or 2 classics a year? It boils to down to what your criteria is. Workrate and overall consistency is different than an overall body of work. To me, I could care less if he's not working many house or tv matches, but choose to focus on the fact that he's pumped out a bunch of instant classics. In other words, I'd rather watch him work 5 mediocre matches with Kozlov and then tear the house down with Taker, than see him have 5 entertaining but forgettable matches with Jeff Jarrett. Either way, I voted for his first run. That's because I also factored in things like promos, fueds, his run at the top, and the fact that he was going out there and making classics happen from scratch.

I just want to point out, that what I'm about to say is probably stupid, and I'll even admit no one probably cares but me.

He was putting out great house matches along with top quality PPV matches when he was champion the first time around.

That's amazing.

[The Show Off]

From a character stand point: First half

From a in-ring performance: Second half

[redoneja]

I really think during this second half of his career, he's done more with less. I'd say overall that he's had a better group of people to work with during this time, but at the same time, he's isn't in his physical prime, which makes what he's been able to accomplish even more impressive.

[Jordan]

Thats such a good question, as most have pointed out. It is so tough to really give an good answer. I was along for the ride for HBK's first run in WWE and it was amazing. He was the biggest innovator WWE had under contract until that point. From the fast paced high flying matches, to the huge bumps, and risky interviews and angles. Some of the greatest and most memorable matches of all time. You know what they are. I think the honest answer though is his second run.

I do miss the old HBK, I miss the look, the really amazing athleticism, the risky promo's etc.... BUT he has faced much higher quality opponents in his second run than his first... Triple H, Undertaker, Angle, Flair, Jericho, Benoit, Hogan, Orton, Cena... in his first run he had great matches with Bret Hart, Owen Hart, Hall, Nash, Taker, Foley, Sid... and well now I have to start thinking really hard. I do miss the old HBK, but he is still the best guy they have and pulls out all of the stops when it counts.

I think its really cool that he was able to come back from retirement when nobody thought he could, and instead of embarrassing himself (like he though he would) he ended up developing a new way to work, the ended up being just as good as the old way.

[Lord-Of-Darkness]

This is a hard one for me, as it is for everyone else it seems.

I've been watching wrestling since before I can remember, and as a child I was a Hogan mark like pretty much every other kid. He is what hooked me to begin with, I won't begin to deny that.

But Michaels is what KEPT me hooked in the mid-nineties. As a 10 year old child I was pulled right in by the whole 'boyhood dream' stuff.

I was a mark from around then til he left in 98, and still marked more than anything when he made his rare appearances during the Attitude era.

Yes, I loved it when he came back in 2002, and he has been brilliant to watch since. There is also no denying that.

But I have to vote for the first half, simply because wrestling was different then. Not because of the era, but because I believed it. I can look back and think fondly of shouting at the TV when Michaels beat Hart in an Iron Man match, after hanging on the ups and downs of all 60 minutes, and every other great moment he was a part of in that era.

[Rammsteinmad]

2nd half.

The first half was great, no doubt about it, but I think his second half has been better thanks to the talent he's been working with.

I mean, first of all, HBK entered his second half with what, 15 years experience? And unlike most guys, he hasn't slowed down with age.

But let's look at it like this, HBK's first half was generally made with weaker talent than the second. Sure, he worked with Austin, Foley and Hart who are all fantastic, but he also worked with the likes of Kevin Nash, Sid Vicious and Undertaker (I didn't really like 'Taker until 1999). During the early 90's he was still pretty young, so still kinda 'on his way up' and taking on a lot of mid-carders such as Jeff Jarrett, Razor Ramon etc.

Since his return in 2002, he has been a constant main-event level wrestler with 20 years of experience, and has had some amazing talent to work with such as Jericho, Benoit, Angle, Triple H, Undertaker (now), Rob Van Dam, Randy Orton, Ric Flair, even John Cena.

His entire career has been amazing, but I just feel since his return in 2002 he's had a much better roster to work with and has put on some amazing matches.