Who will win? HBK or Undertaker?

[Jordan]

I just want to say, this is going to be one of the biggest matches of all time. It's huge, fucking ridiculous and I am stoked. I really don't understand nor care to understand people who think otherwise, who cares it's all for me! I will enjoy it, who cares who doesn't, I am sure there will be more to please you at Wrestlemania this year, but Undertaker/HBK is the best choice for those guys and its huge.

[Heyman]

Call me crazy, but I think HBK will go over in this one.

Taker will sacrifice his streak in order to help establish HBK as the greatest wrestler of all-time.

If anyone deserves to be put over by Taker at Mania, it's HBK. The guy has done so much for guys like Austin, Benoit, Angle, and many others at the grandest stage of them all.

[Heyman]

I will also say this:

As critical as I have been about the WWE in recent years, I think the HBK/Taker build-up has been absolutely amazing....and the WWE should pat themselves on the back for this.

Ditto for the Orton/Rhodes/Dibiase feud, and the Bret/Vince & Cena/Batista feuds.

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by Heyman I will also say this: As critical as I have been about the WWE in recent years, I think the HBK/Taker build-up has been absolutely amazing....and the WWE should pat themselves on the back for this. Ditto for the Orton/Rhodes/Dibiase feud, and the Bret/Vince & Cena/Batista feuds.

[The Show Off]

Originally Posted by Jeritron So you're looking forward to it, and you think it will be great? How does that equal it doing nothing for you?

From a match stand point it will be great but a rematch isn't the best use of both these guys time, in my opinion.

Michaels is a big star and could elevate plenty of wrestlers at Wrestlemania nut he simply hasn't.

Shawn Michaels hasn't put a young guy over at Wrestlemania ever, and that's a shame becahes Shawn is so great in the ring he could elevate the status of a wrestler just by putting on a great match at the grandest stage of them all... Since HBK himself has been a main eventer here is who he's wrestled at Wrestlemania...

12: Bret Hart: Bigger star than him at the time.

14: Steve Austin: Already a big star due to Bret Hart's rub the year before.

19: Chris Jericho: Former World Champion.

20: Chris Benoit: Established star

20: Triple H: Top man in the company at the time.

21: Kurt Angle: Well over and a multiple time champion.

22: Vince McMahon: Not even a real wrestler

23: John Cena: Biggest star in the WWE

24: Ric Flair: One of the 3 biggest wrestlers of all-time.

25: The Undertaker: One of the most lauded wrestlers of all time.


It's nit picking I know but seeing as how Shawn doesn't have many more Wrestlemania's left I'd like to see someone young challenge him and try to get over on his reputation. The idea of Shawn needing this match is silly. Shawn should be taking on John Morrison or MVP or Drew McIntyre or Dolph Ziggler ect. Someone that we can really see what they got by facing Shawn.

That's how it does nothing for me, because I saw Shawn/Taker like 4 times already and once at Wrestlemania.

[The Show Off]

Originally Posted by Heyman Call me crazy, but I think HBK will go over in this one. Taker will sacrifice his streak in order to help establish HBK as the greatest wrestler of all-time. If anyone deserves to be put over by Taker at Mania, it's HBK. The guy has done so much for guys like Austin, Benoit, Angle, and many others at the grandest stage of them all.

Austin was put over by Bret the year before Shawn was just someone to win the belt from...

Triple H was the guy that put Chris Benoit over...

Kurt Angle was over 4 years before he wrestled at Wrestlemania 21...

[Jeritron]

Some strong points. I would have liked to see Shawn work with a couple more young guys at Mania during this run, but I think that's unlikely now.

Punk would have been a great candidate.

[The Show Off]

Originally Posted by Jeritron Some strong points. I would have liked to see Shawn work with a couple more young guys at Mania during this run, but I think that's unlikely now. Punk would have been a great candidate.

I guess "does nothing for me" is wrong to say. Because I'm going to love the match... I know that. But I think I'd more prefer him wrestle someone young or hell even someone he's never faced at Wrestlemania before... For some reason I always wanted to see Shawn Michaels face Rey Mysterio at Wrestlemania.

Anyway, my use of hyperbole was over done.

[Damian Rey]

Originally Posted by Jeritron Some strong points. I would have liked to see Shawn work with a couple more young guys at Mania during this run, but I think that's unlikely now. Punk would have been a great candidate.

Tha could be an immense match with right build and story to it.

I agree that Michaels hasn't been utilized correctly in terms of putting new guys over to establish them, but I understand the logic of having him in one of the top billed matches. He's billed as Mr. WrestleMania, so it's no surprise to me they utilize him as a buyrate more so than to help get the kids over.

[The Show Off]

Originally Posted by Damian Rey Tha could be an immense match with right build and story to it. I agree that Michaels hasn't been utilized correctly in terms of putting new guys over to establish them, but I understand the logic of having him in one of the top billed matches. He's billed as Mr. WrestleMania, so it's no surprise to me they utilize him as a buyrate more so than to help get the kids over.

Thats short sighted though, if they get a newer talent that can really go in the ring (a la MVP) the two of them could put on a steller match and then MVP can star calling himself Mr. Wrestlemania, so that when HBK is gone you have someone else that can drive buys up rather than Cena and Batista.

[TGR]

TL;DR Summary: "Streak is fake, it's not insulting to UT to end it."

I think people are missing something here with regards to the Streak.

It's not real.

Dont be so quick to respond. Just think. Many of the arguments I've heard from the Streaking camp (for lack of a better term) seem to think this is a badge of honor for Mark Calloway. I have to admit - I cant think of a single hall of famer who cherishes his win/loss record. Why?

Because it's not real. It's an imaginative construct. It would be the same argument that, when I played Caesar for my school's production of the same name, I had a 0-3 win/loss record against the Brutus and Cassius characters. (Three days of the same play.)

The Undertaker's story, if he were to write it, will talk about his glory days on the road, his highlights of his career, the matches he is most proud of, and friends/family he is fond of. One thing I dont think he will take with him is the fact that in the back, a group of writers decided that, once a year, for twenty years, he should never lose. What he probably will take with him would be the classic matches that he put on with everyone from Hulk Hogan to Yokozuna and everyone in between. The man is a craftsman. And a true craftsman is more concerned with the quality of his work then any other statistic.

To end the streak is not an insult to the Undertaker. It does not diminish the monumental impact his career has had upon the business. I will still be an Undertaker mark if he's 17-1. And many, many more will still honor him for what he's done, and for what he's created in the Undertaker character. Win/Loss records are not even a factor.

Perhaps the streak is different, one would say. But in the end, I think, Undertaker's streak will be a minor footnote in the epitaph of his career.

---

That said, if Tipsters was tomorrow...well to be perfectly honest, I dont know how I think it will go. Every time I think "They cant end the streak..." I think "But they cant end Shawn Michaels' career..."

I couldn't tell you who the favorite is for UT vs HBK II. But I can tell you who I'll write down to be the true winner of this match for Tipsters purposes.

Us.

[redoneja]

When I think of all possible scenarios I think:

a) Taker beats HBK
1) HBK 'retires' and then gets drawn back into WWE within the year, sorta like how Randy Savage lost a retirement match and then fought to get reinstated when Jake Roberts started antagonizing him and Elizabeth.
2) HBK snaps, turns heel, and refuses to retire
3) HBK actually retires (least likely of these three scenarios)

b) Match goes to a no-contest, double countout, double DQ. Probably the most disappointing option but it leaves the streak intact and HBK doesn't have to retire

c) HBK beats Taker
1) The most far fetched development I can think of coming out of HBK beating Taker, is that Taker loses and disappears for months. Around Survivor Series (or whatever PPV takes the place of Survivor Series), the lights start flickering when HBK is around, etc. Michaels gets into either the WWE or World Title match at the Royal Rumble and wins the belt. The next night on Raw, the Undertaker returns and asks him for another rematch at Wrestlemania, for the title. In a reversal of this year, Michaels declines saying he has nothing left to prove. Taker disappears again for a few weeks, but returns at Elimination Chamber and costs HBK the title in one of the Chamber matches. Next night on Raw, Undertaker challenges Michaels again and wants HBK to put his career on the line. HBK accepts, on the condition that Taker also puts his career on the line, leading into a Career v Career match at Mania to complete their 'trilogy'.

[Damian Rey]

Originally Posted by The Show Off Thats short sighted though, if they get a newer talent that can really go in the ring (a la MVP) the two of them could put on a steller match and then MVP can star calling himself Mr. Wrestlemania, so that when HBK is gone you have someone else that can drive buys up rather than Cena and Batista.

I agree but this is how we've seen the E work. WWE is short sighted in general. Especially in recent years. I cannot remeber the last time I saw a match at Mania that had long term purposes of getting a younger guy over and establishing him forever.

[The Show Off]

Originally Posted by TGR TL;DR Summary: "Streak is fake, it's not insulting to UT to end it." I think people are missing something here with regards to the Streak. It's not real. Dont be so quick to respond. Just think. Many of the arguments I've heard from the Streaking camp (for lack of a better term) seem to think this is a badge of honor for Mark Calloway. I have to admit - I cant think of a single hall of famer who cherishes his win/loss record. Why? Because it's not real. It's an imaginative construct. It would be the same argument that, when I played Caesar for my school's production of the same name, I had a 0-3 win/loss record against the Brutus and Cassius characters. (Three days of the same play.) The Undertaker's story, if he were to write it, will talk about his glory days on the road, his highlights of his career, the matches he is most proud of, and friends/family he is fond of. One thing I dont think he will take with him is the fact that in the back, a group of writers decided that, once a year, for twenty years, he should never lose. What he probably will take with him would be the classic matches that he put on with everyone from Hulk Hogan to Yokozuna and everyone in between. The man is a craftsman. And a true craftsman is more concerned with the quality of his work then any other statistic. To end the streak is not an insult to the Undertaker. It does not diminish the monumental impact his career has had upon the business. I will still be an Undertaker mark if he's 17-1. And many, many more will still honor him for what he's done, and for what he's created in the Undertaker character. Win/Loss records are not even a factor. Perhaps the streak is different, one would say. But in the end, I think, Undertaker's streak will be a minor footnote in the epitaph of his career. --- That said, if Tipsters was tomorrow...well to be perfectly honest, I dont know how I think it will go. Every time I think "They cant end the streak..." I think "But they cant end Shawn Michaels' career..." I couldn't tell you who the favorite is for UT vs HBK II. But I can tell you who I'll write down to be the true winner of this match for Tipsters purposes. Us.

I understand your point, and its well said. But in the same logic all title matches are fake but people get bent out of shape for that. Even though its fake Mr. Perfect, Davey Boy Smith, & Owen Hart still can't be called World Champion, yet David Arquette, Vince Russo, and Vince McMahon can.

By that logic when someone loses a match that people diagree with, say Orton/HHH at Wrestlemania last year. You can't be pissed off that Orton lost at Wrestlemania because it's fake.

To take it a step further that's like saying you can't be annoyed in a movie doesn't end the way you want it because it's fake. Like say at the end of Star Wars the Emperor killed Darth Vader and Luke that'd be bullshit, it would be an awful ending and make no sense. But why get annoyed it's fake?

I don't know, it might be apples and oranges but its a wrestling forum the arguments are all just personal opinions so to say "but it's fake" isn't really an argument at all it's just stating what we all know already.

[BillyBonez]

This match is boring because there is no interest or shock or variety in who will win. It is extremely obvious that HBK will win.

Why?

Well its obvious that HBK is not retiring. If HBK was retiring, WWE would have ran a year long angle like they did when flair retired. Also Shawn is in good shape and doesnt wrestle that much, retiring would make him a retard because he gets ton of money, makes billions for the company while working like once a week.

Undertaker on the other hand, won last Mania and its obvious that since he face same guy again, he has to return the favor and lose. Also all reports say that Taker is hurt and his knees are in terrible shape and that he probably wont be able to wrestle for a long time anymore. Also dude is mad old yo, when he forgets to color his hair with Just For Men (LOL) he looks like somebody's grandfather from the retirement village.

So, it is very clear who is winning and that man is HBK.

Its a shame because WWE could have done something interesting like putting Cena up against Taker and given us a new challenge where we wont be able to see the winner so easy.

[Fignuts]

Originally Posted by BillyBonez This match is boring because there is no interest or shock or variety in who will win. It is extremely obvious that HBK will win. Why? Well its obvious that HBK is not retiring. If HBK was retiring, WWE would have ran a year long angle like they did when flair retired. Also Shawn is in good shape and doesnt wrestle that much, retiring would make him a retard because he gets ton of money, makes billions for the company while working like once a week. Undertaker on the other hand, won last Mania and its obvious that since he face same guy again, he has to return the favor and lose. Also all reports say that Taker is hurt and his knees are in terrible shape and that he probably wont be able to wrestle for a long time anymore. Also dude is mad old yo, when he forgets to color his hair with Just For Men (LOL) he looks like somebody's grandfather from the retirement village. So, it is very clear who is winning and that man is HBK. Its a shame because WWE could have done something interesting like putting Cena up against Taker and given us a new challenge where we wont be able to see the winner so easy.

Originally Posted by Fignuts I think losing to taker could be the best way to turn him full on heel. He's still not there yet. He can just snap, after the match, and deliver a beatdown on taker. Then comeback afterwards breaking the deal he made to get the match, to get himself even more heat.

[TGR]

I started addressing you, Show Off, and I think in the process of editing, reediting for clarity, shifting things around, and moving them about, I lost track of what comes when. The response will be somewhat out of order. I'm certain you can cope.

--

To take it a step further that's like saying you can't be annoyed in a movie doesn't end the way you want it because it's fake. Like say at the end of Star Wars the Emperor killed Darth Vader and Luke that'd be bullshit, it would be an awful ending and make no sense. But why get annoyed it's fake?

Setting aside the fact that, as an Emperor Palpatine mark (Perhaps my Ministry of Darkness markdom gave me away as a fan of the Sith Lord), I would love for him to have bitchslapped Luke and Anakin.

It's not that point I'm addressing. What I'm saying is, just because Palpatine killed Luke and Anakin, doesn't mean it's a personal insult towards Mark Hamill, the actor who played Luke Skywalker. Same logic towards the streak.

Originally Posted by The Show Off By that logic when someone loses a match that people diagree with, say Orton/HHH at Wrestlemania last year. You can't be pissed off that Orton lost at Wrestlemania because it's fake. I don't know, it might be apples and oranges but its a wrestling forum the arguments are all just personal opinions so to say "but it's fake" isn't really an argument at all it's just stating what we all know already.

I will say you have a valid point, but I also think you missed mine (apples and oranges, as you say). Everyone has a right to an opinion, even a vitriolic one, about the direction creative takes. I'm simply addressing the idea that breaking the streak at this point in time would be an insult to the accomplishments of Mark Calloway.

The streak is insignificant next to the Undertaker. The latter could have been just fine without the former, and was just fine without it for over a decade. The streak could not have existed without the man who creative put faith enough in to create an undefeated winning streak for. The legend made it a legendary streak. Not the other way around.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

Originally Posted by BillyBonez This match is boring because there is no interest or shock or variety in who will win. It is extremely obvious that HBK will win. Why? Well its obvious that HBK is not retiring. If HBK was retiring, WWE would have ran a year long angle like they did when flair retired. Also Shawn is in good shape and doesnt wrestle that much, retiring would make him a retard because he gets ton of money, makes billions for the company while working like once a week. Undertaker on the other hand, won last Mania and its obvious that since he face same guy again, he has to return the favor and lose. Also all reports say that Taker is hurt and his knees are in terrible shape and that he probably wont be able to wrestle for a long time anymore. Also dude is mad old yo, when he forgets to color his hair with Just For Men (LOL) he looks like somebody's grandfather from the retirement village. So, it is very clear who is winning and that man is HBK. Its a shame because WWE could have done something interesting like putting Cena up against Taker and given us a new challenge where we wont be able to see the winner so easy.

You seem to forget that HBK will probably take 4 or 5 months off after Mania.

If HBK loses, I think Morrison needs to go heel and start calling himself the new showstopper, the new main event, etc, etc. Then they can slowly sow the seeds of a Morrison vs. HBK feud when HBK comes back.

[The Show Off]

Originally Posted by TGR I will say you have a valid point, but I also think you missed mine (apples and oranges, as you say). Everyone has a right to an opinion, even a vitriolic one, about the direction creative takes. I'm simply addressing the idea that breaking the streak at this point in time would be an insult to the accomplishments of Mark Calloway. The streak is insignificant next to the Undertaker. The latter could have been just fine without the former, and was just fine without it for over a decade. The streak could not have existed without the man who creative put faith enough in to create an undefeated winning streak for. The legend made it a legendary streak. Not the other way around.

Very true The Undertaker will be a legend with or without the streak.

Also thank you for introducing me to the word vitriolic, I will be using that one.

[Fignuts]

Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do? You seem to forget that HBK will probably take 4 or 5 months off after Mania. If HBK loses, I think Morrison needs to go heel and start calling himself the new showstopper, the new main event, etc, etc. Then they can slowly sow the seeds of a Morrison vs. HBK feud when HBK comes back.

When HBK comes back, he's going to be a heel. No doubt about it.

[Fignuts]

TGR, I would argue that Micheals doesn't need the accomplishment of breaking the streak either.

[TGR]

TSO: You're welcome. I liked that word, myself.

Fignuts: Neither of them need anything from this match. They're just doing a great match to benefit the fans. The storyline around it, while awesome, will ultimately be forgotten.

[Hitmanfan84]

Wow my first post reply, never forget it. Well quite frankly, I think the Taker's streak is pretty much bigger than a championship at WM and it should be one of least few major accomplishments in the business that should be left alone at this point. I mean sure HBK can beat the Undertaker at any given day, but at WM thats asking too much from the wrestling world. Personally I think the Undertaker's WM streak is the best thing at WM these days. It's really good for the business and there's quite a few superstars (like Cena) that haven't challenge the Undertaker with so little time he has left in this business. My pick is the Undertaker til death do us apart.

[Hitmanfan84]

Next year: the Undertaker v.s. John Cena, that should about do it.
With Taker winning of course

[DAMN iNATOR]

Originally Posted by Sixx Did anyone ever actually retire after losing a career on the line match?

Flair. Who gives a fuck that he's with TNA, and that's based in Orlando, which is in Florida, which is just a name for a "state" that's actually a senior retirement community anyway.

Fuck anyone who says otherwise, I win, you lose, STFU.

[Paranoid Rattlesnake]

Maybe Taker is repaying Michaels for costing him 4-5 years of his career because of that back body drop onto the casket at the Royal Rumble all those moons ago?

[ImpactPlayer365]

Originally Posted by Paranoid Rattlesnake Maybe Taker is repaying Michaels for costing him 4-5 years of his career because of that back body drop onto the casket at the Royal Rumble all those moons ago?

Good point. Also the fact that Michaels has been having Match of the year candidates every year pretty much, but hasnt held a singles title in a long time. No need for him to beat Taker to solidify him and his career, but maybe Taker figures if he's going to lose to someone at WM then it might as well be HBK, as opposed to some new up and comer who cant hold a candle to Taker

[Team Sheep]

I'm gonna be changing my prediction so many times over the next 4 weeks. It's impossible to predict. Can't wait to witness this history once again.

[Mr. C]

Until The Undertaker himself says, “End my streak”, he shouldn’t lose. There’s no reason for Shawn Michaels to win since he’s taking time off right after WrestleMania.

Even so, it should be awesome, and that’s all that matters.

[#1-norm-fan]

Let's face it, the only reason this match is happening is because HBK is amazing and helped Taker put on the best match of his career far past the point where he realistically should be having 5 star matches. That's not a knock on Taker. I give him all the credit in the world. But HBK is the only one who could have had that match with him.

So considering HBK putting on an incredible performance is the only reason the rematch is happening, it would really annoy me for him to lose again just to keep the streak alive. It would be like punishing him for doing such a great job last year. If anything, I think this needs to be his shining moment for giving what he has given in the ring.

[Mr. C]

PWTorch.com has reported that Shawn Michaels will be taking a few months off over the summer. The Undertaker is also expected to take time off after WrestleMania due to an injury.

[Lara Emily]

Originally Posted by Fignuts I was thinking this might happen, considering they are both taking time off afterwards. Not a countout or anything gay like that, but some massive bump or scenario that takes them both out. That would explain on the show, why both are taking time off, and taker leaves with his streak intact, shawn with his career.

Have UT beat the shit out of HBK, like have him cut open and bleeding everywhere, have him set up HBK for the tombstone only for HBK to slip down his back and quickly as UT turns around hit SCM and then collapse, have UT sell it like the biggest SCM ever and collapse to. Have the ref do the obligatory 10 count, right after the ref hits the 10 count and rings the bell, have HBK reach over to drap an arm over UT for the cover, but it's too late the match is a draw, HBK slowly gets to his feet so out of it that he thinks the ringing of the bell means he has won, the ref has to tell him otherwise, HBK then gives the ref SCM, and goes nuts, he waits for UT to get up then hits SCM on him again, waits and hits it again, and again, and just starts hammering UT and then walks away in disgust

[thejamminone]

I'm thinking maybe Taker and I'm thinking it could be a draw too.

[DLVH84]

Originally Posted by BillyBonez This match is boring because there is no interest or shock or variety in who will win. It is extremely obvious that HBK will win. Why? Well its obvious that HBK is not retiring. If HBK was retiring, WWE would have ran a year long angle like they did when flair retired. Also Shawn is in good shape and doesnt wrestle that much, retiring would make him a retard because he gets ton of money, makes billions for the company while working like once a week. Undertaker on the other hand, won last Mania and its obvious that since he face same guy again, he has to return the favor and lose. Also all reports say that Taker is hurt and his knees are in terrible shape and that he probably wont be able to wrestle for a long time anymore. Also dude is mad old yo, when he forgets to color his hair with Just For Men (LOL) he looks like somebody's grandfather from the retirement village. So, it is very clear who is winning and that man is HBK. Its a shame because WWE could have done something interesting like putting Cena up against Taker and given us a new challenge where we wont be able to see the winner so easy.

Both Shawn and Taker are nearly 45 years old. That's not really that old. Anywho, I say Taker is going to win, with Shawn coming very close to winning.

[Sixx]

The Undertaker will win, and Shawn will not retire, noone ever fucking retires after losing a match with such stipulation. Stupid.