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Old 04-16-2010, 12:23 AM   #41
Damian Rey
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCrippyZ View Post
Thank you, somebody who gets the importance of character development. It seems to me like they don't develop characters much at all, then they push them into the main event and THEN start to develop the character and expect us to already love/hate them because they're a top guy now. Jericho is a guy I can buy and actually care about as a main eventer because when guys like Austin, HHH, and Rock were main eventing, he was in the mid card having great feuds and plenty of mic/promo time with the Y2J gimmick. Same thing with guys like Rock, Austin, HHH, even Kane got the same kind of development before being pushed as the top guys. Although Kane was never truly given permanent main event status, I don't think.
Yea, that was my point exactly. You can't be emotionally invested into a guy when there's nothing to emotionally invest into. Right now, I am hoping to God that they don't blow their load with Orton. He is, by and far, their most over face. They need to have his rise back to the top be a slow and steady journey. But, knowing the booking team, they will put the strap on Orton before the summer.
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Old 04-16-2010, 12:26 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by KayfabeMan View Post
I have been to a number of live events in numerous cities around the US over the past few years - and the crowds are no where near as loud as they used to be back in the 1990's.
Every single RAW from 98-02 was as loud as the once or twice a year "big moments" we get these days

Fuck... Too Cool's dancing was getting bigger pops than 95% of anything today. It's definitely true.
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Old 04-16-2010, 12:28 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by The Franchise View Post
Fuck... Too Cool's dancing was getting bigger pops than 95% of anything today. It's definitely true.
This makes me
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Old 04-16-2010, 12:42 AM   #44
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It's also hard to be emotionally invested and care about stuff when they constantly throw into your face that matches and angles don't matter, and that we are in fact just watching Jerry Springer.
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Old 04-16-2010, 12:46 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey View Post
This makes me
Me too man, me too. It's sad but true that Too Cool's dancing was getting bigger pops than most of what happens now.

On a different note, some folks claim it's some new digital audio technology affecting the crowd levels. Well I can tell you as a professional audio engineer, who's worked in live broadcast and studio/post production fields, that's not the case. The digital audio format has been the standard in live broadcast long before the crowd levels began changing. I don't know specific details about what type of setup WWE is running audio wise, but I know and have enough experience with HD and digital audio formats to know that no amount of audio compression/technology would affect the crowd levels that much but not affect the announcer levels, especially in a live setting. It's too hard to predict the change in levels of the crowd noise to alter it that drastically in a live setting. That's not to say that they can't and don't alter crowd levels in post on pre-taped shows and DVD releases, but they can't alter it that drastically due to DVD format and broadcast standards.
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Old 04-16-2010, 08:08 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD View Post
That's assuming the average wrestling fan knows the difference.
Fewer people watching+quieter crowds+less popular angles=Occam's Razor, motherfucker.

It may not be literally true that they know it's a "soap opera" writer, but they clearly can tell the difference in the product.

Well, it's that, or the less likely alternative that people are buying more expensive tickets just so they can show up and demonstrate how "cool" they are by not responding....
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Old 04-16-2010, 08:16 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
Fewer people watching+quieter crowds+less popular angles=Occam's Razor, motherfucker.
Perfect way to sum up my point, KK.
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Old 04-16-2010, 09:43 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguakate View Post
...we are in 2010...everything's "digitalized"...Digital TV's, High Definition, enhanced audio...everything has to be seen and heard more clearly...is it possible this is the reason why the pop's aren't heard as loud on tv as the 80's and 90's?
If anything, "Enhanced audio" allows you to have a louder crowd and still keep the experience of the announcer/speaker/musician intact, especially with discrete HD audio. You get to five channels and you've got yourself a good way to mix sound in an enveloping fashion, you're enhancing the experience.

Ignoring the actual live crowds, there is little reason to think audio specifications would either mandate or make desirable the reduction of crowds, a key element of a live experience, to make the commentary more audible or to stop people from being "annoyed."

The 90s were a hot era. Now, less so. I suppose you could claim a poor business decision to alter the audio mix, but it's been fairly consistent over the years, and you'd still have to ignore the live crowds, which are generally accepted to be quieter (I don't care what Destor, Tedious, or the rest o the "It's still real to me, dammit!" Club say).
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Old 04-16-2010, 09:49 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
Well, it's that, or the less likely alternative that people are buying more expensive tickets just so they can show up and demonstrate how "cool" they are by not responding....
People buy iPad to show how cool they are, don't forget what country you're in.
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Old 04-16-2010, 11:39 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD View Post
People buy iPad to show how cool they are, don't forget what country you're in.
Yes, but don't forget to make your analogies apt.

The iPad, part of the Apple trend, is actually considered a popular and desirable product. What you're comparing it to is a product that is neither popular (in a mainstream sense) nor desirable.

Further, you're comparing people buying something as a status symbol to people effectively buying something not only "ironically," but so as to deliberately not use it.

And let's not forget another point: It's currently "cool to hate" Apple, too. If the two were remotely comparable, the iPad would be suffering in a similar fashion WWE is.
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Old 04-16-2010, 01:04 PM   #51
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Heh, could have used this action when I myself was commenting on WWE's declining product years ago - only in this case I'm commenting on the lame-ass fans who wouldn't know quality if WWE did a Attitude Era style show one night. Crowd would still be dead, TPWW would flip, though.

Americans suck, get over it.
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Old 04-16-2010, 01:08 PM   #52
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Cool
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD View Post
Heh, could have used this action when I myself was commenting on WWE's declining product years ago - only in this case I'm commenting on the lame-ass fans who wouldn't know quality if WWE did a Attitude Era style show one night. Crowd would still be dead, TPWW would flip, though.

Americans suck, get over it.
Yeah, the American Pro Wrestling Fans get soap opera bullshit (WWE and TNA), while places like Canada, Mexico, Europe, and Japan has superior pro wrestling; they treat it more like a sport, and that I like.
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Old 04-16-2010, 01:13 PM   #53
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Wouldn't say it's superior, as the styles are too different to compare. WWE/TNA use the soap opera style because that's what the majority of their audience wants. You'd be lucky to fill a bingo hall if you ran puro style shows here.
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Old 04-16-2010, 01:44 PM   #54
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Actually I wish it was more like soap operas now. Right now it seems to be a sketch comedy tour with the occasional 'serious' story. At least in '01 they had legit funny comedy sketches and entertainment angles (Kurt Angle's silliness, the music act). Now it's just 'forced'. Saying you're mainstream doesn't make you mainstream, and guest hosts feel awkward and out of place.

And the foreign promotions have story lines, too. Know what else they have? Rowdy fans still (except Japan who interact with matches differently, but they're in too it).
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Old 04-16-2010, 01:51 PM   #55
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They have storylines in Japan, but they aren't as dramatic. And they heel/face aspect isn't as black and white as it is in america. NJPW, Zero-1, and Noah are all booked in an almost faux-MMA style.

All Japan is the closest thing to WWE's style, the other japanese soap opera style promotions taking the drama and silliness to ridiculous new levels.
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Old 04-16-2010, 01:53 PM   #56
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The Attitude Era felt like you were watching a cricket match in the Sub-Continent but now it feels like England "bah!"
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Old 04-16-2010, 01:58 PM   #57
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Guru Dave, ladies and gentlemen.
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Old 04-16-2010, 02:18 PM   #58
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You guys are forgetting a pretty big thing.

The target audience in the Attitude Era was males, ages 18-34.

The target audience now is children, ages 0-5.

What will a male aged 18-34 do at a show that a child, aged 0-5 won't do at a show? GET FUCKING DRUNK. When you're drunk, you're louder and your inhibitions go away. You'd go NUTS at a wrestling show. Even if you weren't drunk at an Attitude Era show, there where enough people around you who were and you didn't feel weird for going ballistic.

Live shows these days are totally different. I never used to see so many kids back in the day. Kids like to cheer, but some kids are still really timid, and they're not as naturally loud as a drunk adult. Also, who do you think brought the kids to the show? Their parents who PROBABLY don't even give a fuck about wrestling, but they're trying to make their kids happy. They have no reason to get loud.

Now a guy like me will go to a show today. I'll still get drunk and I'll WANT to go ballistic, but there will be a ton of kids around me so I hold myself back a little bit as to not offend their parents.

Just something else to think about.
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Old 04-16-2010, 02:23 PM   #59
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You know, I never really thought of it before, but I think that's the same reason that the Straight Edge Society is getting huge pops. They're speaking directly to the drunk people and challenging them. Of course they're gonna get loud.
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Old 04-16-2010, 04:04 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla View Post
You guys are forgetting a pretty big thing.

The target audience in the Attitude Era was males, ages 18-34.

The target audience now is children, ages 0-5.

What will a male aged 18-34 do at a show that a child, aged 0-5 won't do at a show? GET FUCKING DRUNK. When you're drunk, you're louder and your inhibitions go away. You'd go NUTS at a wrestling show. Even if you weren't drunk at an Attitude Era show, there where enough people around you who were and you didn't feel weird for going ballistic.

Live shows these days are totally different. I never used to see so many kids back in the day. Kids like to cheer, but some kids are still really timid, and they're not as naturally loud as a drunk adult. Also, who do you think brought the kids to the show? Their parents who PROBABLY don't even give a fuck about wrestling, but they're trying to make their kids happy. They have no reason to get loud.

Now a guy like me will go to a show today. I'll still get drunk and I'll WANT to go ballistic, but there will be a ton of kids around me so I hold myself back a little bit as to not offend their parents.

Just something else to think about.
All the more reason this PG shit needs to end soon I think. Unfortunately, it's not likely going to happen any time soon anyway. I was actually hoping TNA might hurry the end of the PG era, but it looks like that's not going to happen if the recent TNA ratings are any indication.
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Old 04-16-2010, 05:12 PM   #61
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The target audience now is children, ages 0-5.
Good post but for some reason this made me
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Old 04-16-2010, 05:13 PM   #62
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That seems to be it..... Attitude Era had better storylines/wrestlers + drunk fans = louder crowds
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Old 04-16-2010, 05:24 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD View Post
Heh, could have used this action when I myself was commenting on WWE's declining product years ago - only in this case I'm commenting on the lame-ass fans who wouldn't know quality if WWE did a Attitude Era style show one night. Crowd would still be dead, TPWW would flip, though.

Americans suck, get over it.
I'm not the one making up excuses for while a flailing product is doing poorly. I'm pretty sure I'm not the one who needs to get over it.

As for your claim, Austin's return was a peak in ratings in the middle of poor ratings, and a hotter crowd. I mean, your argument is literally and demonstrably wrong. introducing just one element of the Attitude Era, one person people gave a shit about, was enough to get a bigger response.

Strike three, Kal.

It's almost like the thesis that higher "quality" = better crowd reactions holds up to scrutiny.
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Old 04-16-2010, 05:26 PM   #64
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While the crowds weren't as bad as they are now, 2007 was still miles behind the 90s/early 00s...... and remember when Austin first returned in early 2007? That crowd was REALLY HOT.
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Old 04-16-2010, 05:28 PM   #65
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My thesis?
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Old 04-16-2010, 05:29 PM   #66
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This is 2007. Although this was in Chicago
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Old 04-16-2010, 07:49 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD View Post
My thesis?
No, mine. You're making excuses for why the crowd is no longer hot for people that haven't been built for them to care about in angles that they don't care about.

I'm explaining that there's a correlation between crowd reaction and quality of show. You're making a "It's cool to hate" argument.

If that was your thesis, you said the exact opposite.
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Old 04-16-2010, 08:06 PM   #68
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Sorry.
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Old 04-16-2010, 08:41 PM   #69
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It's okay. It's not surprising you wouldn't understand your own argument.
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Old 04-16-2010, 08:45 PM   #70
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I wasn't sorry. You know this, right? I was quite malevolent in the matter.
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Old 04-17-2010, 12:27 PM   #71
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This shit is funny. So totally my favorite thread right now. Either the crowd is going dead, or some people are going deaf. That's all there is to it.
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Old 04-17-2010, 05:09 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD View Post
I wasn't sorry. You know this, right? I was quite malevolent in the matter.
Yes, Noid, those of us without autism can grasp this sort of thing. But while we're clarifying, you know "It's okay" wasn't literal, right?

...Right?
Last edited by Kane Knight; 04-17-2010 at 05:11 PM. Reason: TPWW ate my response
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Old 04-17-2010, 05:23 PM   #73
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Good post but for some reason this made me
Yeah, that part was a joke.
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Old 04-17-2010, 05:24 PM   #74
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Noid's over there.
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Old 04-17-2010, 05:35 PM   #75
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Is it just me or does the WWE spend less time in the major smark cities than they used to. Now they focus on smaller cities and towns where the crowds are much quieter. This with the combination of the younger audiences, and more characters that come out of nowhere to be forced down everyones throat.
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Old 04-17-2010, 05:39 PM   #76
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And less booze.
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Old 04-22-2010, 09:40 PM   #77
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i dunno who this tj midnight420 guys is but he`s massively right.
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Old 04-23-2010, 12:00 AM   #78
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i dunno who this tj midnight420 guys is but he`s massively right.
What's up big dog?
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Old 02-15-2011, 12:09 AM   #79
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BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)BigCrippyZ got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
After the reactions The Rock got tonight, there can be no doubt that the dead crowds in recent years has NOTHING to do with HD/digital audio and everything to do with the talent and writing, and a little of the PG restrictions.
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Old 02-15-2011, 12:13 AM   #80
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Big, Cena and Vickie got huge reactions tonight too.

Matter of Fact, VICKIE got huge heat.. like the most I've seen out of a heel since McMahon from the 90s.
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