The Face/Heel Dynamic: Is Cena missing the heel?

[Xero]

The heel/face threads got me thinking, is Cena missing his big heel nemesis? It's been said, and it's something that I personally believe, that the greatest face can only be as great as the heels they are up against.

I've never really felt that Cena has had a great nemesis. Austin had McMahon, Hogan had Piper, and to a slightly different angle, WCW had the nWo. Those are arguably the three biggest drawing and most important feuds in history, and the one thing they all have in common is that they had a great heel character going after the face.

I've never felt that Cena has had that heel. Sure, he's had Orton, but I never felt that Orton, in that position, was ever as good as he needed to be to bring the feud to the next level. Yes, the writing has a lot to do with that, but it still stands to reason that I don't feel that Orton was ever "it" for Cena.

So, do you think that Cena is missing the heel? Do you think that, with the right heel, wrestling could boom with a face Cena? Or is face Cena only as good as face Cena's going to be?

Also discuss the face/heel dynamic presented in this thread.

[Kane Knight]

Austin also had appeal. So does Cena, I guess, but only to the people who already like him and don't need that epic heel.

The problem is that they've tried to build people up as "epic" opposition to Cena, Orton included. There's no real need to do that to build up for the Cenation, and there's little enough interest to draw in the rest of the crowd.

[Waylander]

What about Edge? He was a major opponent for Cena for a long while, are we not counting him?

[Snowden]

I think building up a heel to go against Cena means that they have to be believably able to beat Cena. The most compelling drama is when the fan genuinely has no idea whats going to happen.

Of course, this doesn't mean that the heel would be as good as Cena, as McMahon could never beat the shit out of Austin. You would just need someone who due to his ring work/ his sway or power in the company/his smarts/his incredible heelishness is someone who the fans believe could actually beat Cena. Really, the WWE hasn't done that, and to an extent, its hard to do that with Cena's character.

This is why Nexus works so well against Cena though. While one of them is no match, a pack of thugs going after Cena is believable, and we've seen Cena get the shit kicked out of him AND cost him his title (twice). IMO, Cena has been getting bigger pops lately, and thats because he's going against a formidable foe.

[Emperor Smeat]

I think the main problem is how the WWE is booking the mega heels or mega faces ever since the brand split began.

RAW had the 1st mega heel in Triple H for a good 2-3 year period but the problem was nobody at a face level was booked to be equal to him. Instead of creating a feud that could be seen going either way, majority of the time the mega heel won or crowd cheered for the face only because they got sick of the heel always winning.

Cena is in the same position as Triple H was in 2002-2003/2004 where he is built up as a mega character but lacks a rival that is seen as equal. There was the chance at making Orton the mega heel but WWE dragged the feud way too long before there was any pay off. Cena also managing to get the crowd to cheer for his opponent only because they are sick of Cena holding the title and want someone new as champion.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

There's been 2 times I've enjoyed Cena since he went to Raw. (3 if you count the 2 weeks he arrived and feuded with Jericho/Christian) The first was his feud with Edge. Since he cashed in MITB and got the title, Cena chasing was entertaining and that lasted all the way up until ONS 06.

The second is right now. Actually seeing him fallible against the Nexus and have Jericho call him out on the fact that he probably just wants to protect his own spot has made him seem more human. I guess unlike a lot of people, I didn't mind his mic work all the time, but pretending he was superman was horrible.

Every other feud he's been in, it's seemed like the only way the heel could beat him was with a fluke. Even Orton needed legacy. But now he is feuding against an entire group and he actually seems worried, I don't mind him.

The only part that really annoys me about Cena isn't even his ring work, because I've seen him go in his early days on Smackdown, but his current work is so reliant around certain spots, you can't see him go to his full potential.

[bigslimjj]

When the same three or four guys are constantly wrestling each other for the title month after month(or year after year like it's becoming on RAW) it's hard to care about who's going after Cena. If Orton,Sheamus,or HHH take the title from Cena we all know it's only a small matter of time before it's back on him again.That equals boring tv to me.

[XCaliber]

Nah i'd say Orton was the guy if anyone the problem is that even before he turned face a lot of peeps thought he was badass and preferred him. There have been several guys he's had big feuds over the years like Edge, Jericho, Triple H, Batista, and most recently Sheamus but they've barely scratched the surface with them. If there's anyone I could see getting him over a least with the kiddies is to have him go up against The Miz only this time he gets the upper hand on Cena and have him do it cleanly.

[Stickman]

When the time is right Cena will be a massive heel. I don't think the time is right.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Stickman When the time is right Cena will be a massive heel. I don't think the time is right.

the time won't be "right" until he stops being a top merch seller. By that point, a heel turn may have lost all its relevance.

[Stickman]

Not necessarily, but you have a good point.

[crusnik]

Cena as a heel??hmmm ,interesting ,but doubtful it will happen.As long as you have heels like a Sheamus or an Edge(or Orton or HHH when they were the bad guys for that matter)you won't see cena as a heel.I agree with the fact that you see the same guys wearing the belt all the time.If it wasn't for Ventura giving Sheamus a chance last year, ya wouldn't see him as WWE champ.Cena would most likely have it.I like Cena but keep him out of the title picture for a while keep him fighting nexus and then have him go against a new mega heel to prove he should be champ.

[Shadrick]

This is probably the best Cena thread I've ever seen, because it's pretty much on point. I never mind Cena on the mic, but when he goes all out and says corny stuff, I sit on my couch, laugh and say "man shut the fuck up cena." He's booked to be this Superman, and while he is genuinely a great guy and his on screen character is SOMEWHAT similar to who he really is in real life, its the booking itself that makes it uninteresting.

As far as a heel turn goes...if he does it, it has to be right. There has to be ANOTHER huge Face for him to feud with and right now, there isn't one. This is one of the very reasons Austins heel run failed.

[rated rjo]

Originally Posted by XCaliber Nah i'd say Orton was the guy if anyone the problem is that even before he turned face a lot of peeps thought he was badass and preferred him. There have been several guys he's had big feuds over the years like Edge, Jericho, Triple H, Batista, and most recently Sheamus but they've barely scratched the surface with them. If there's anyone I could see getting him over a least with the kiddies is to have him go up against The Miz only this time he gets the upper hand on Cena and have him do it cleanly.

I agree with what you said about the Miz. He's got a histoy with Cena, and a good one at that that sets him up as a perfect anti Cena. One of the things you need on a good nemisis is a mouth that won't quit. The Miz has it in spades. If he continues this build he's been on with MITB, I think the Miz is just the guy to be the yin to Cena's yang.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Stickman Not necessarily, but you have a good point.

Which part is not necessarily? Do you think Cena is going to turn heel while he's one of their biggest cash cows, or are you saying not necessarily to it "may be" too late?

Because the former is pretty bad, but the latter's worse.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by crusnik Cena as a heel??hmmm ,interesting ,but doubtful it will happen.As long as you have heels like a Sheamus or an Edge(or Orton or HHH when they were the bad guys for that matter)you won't see cena as a heel.I agree with the fact that you see the same guys wearing the belt all the time.If it wasn't for Ventura giving Sheamus a chance last year, ya wouldn't see him as WWE champ.Cena would most likely have it.I like Cena but keep him out of the title picture for a while keep him fighting nexus and then have him go against a new mega heel to prove he should be champ.

Sheamus could still be a really strong opponent to Cena, but guys like them don't mean Cena won't turn heel. WWE's business model means Cena won't turn heel.

However, we've had like a dozen guys give Cena a run for their money. I'm not sure the opposition argument (that he's missing the other half of the coin) plays out well when they seem to have tried exactly that. They dropped the complete "Superman" face a while ago, and while Cena's still kind of a bland superman character, he's not invulnerable anymore. Guys like sheamus may not always win clean, but they look like threats. This is especially good since he practically came out of nowhere and still looks good. Not great, nto yet, but good.

[jskinnyg]

Originally Posted by Waylander What about Edge? He was a major opponent for Cena for a long while, are we not counting him?

I think Edge was about the closest thing to the big Heel Nemesis that Xero's talking about here... Orton was good, but just didn't fit as well as the Cena/Edge feuds...

Even though Cena is such a HUGE draw merch wise for WWE, Even the greatest like SCSA, The Rock, Hogan, Jericho, HHH, Taker & HBK did VERY well in Merch sales whether they were faces or heels... Up until now I understand the No switching to Heel status for Cena... But it smells right, right NOW to do it... Otherwise he is just gonna be a damn face his whole career and never be put up there with those mentioned above... an ALL-AROUND perfomer that can pull both heel & face off...

p.s. I am BACK!

[Mr. Nerfect]

The most vulnerable Cena has ever looked is right now with Nexus, in my opinion. Cena has had some big feuds, and some rivals that keep popping up over the years (Carlito, Chris Jericho, Edge, Randy Orton, etc.), but he's never had that force he cannot beat. Sheamus would be a really good possibility, but I think he's going to end up being Triple H's kryptonite. Plus, Sheamus' wins against Cena often look like flukes. Not that his arch-nemesis needs to go over him cleanly or anything, but do people in their heart of hearts really believe that Cena can't beat Sheamus?

If they wanted it to be Sheamus, I'd put The Celtic Warrior over Triple H at Hell in a Cell, and then beat Cena in another Tables Match, albeit this time quite dominantly (with his High Cross through a table, or something).

Other possibilities for this:

* Wade Barrett - either individually or as the leader of the Nexus -- perhaps with Heath Slater, Justin Gabriel & Darren Young ending up on SmackDown! when they go to SyFy. Right now, the Nexus are going fine as that unbeatable force, but it will make all concerned look good if they go down to maybe four members (Barrett, Sheffield, Tarver & Otunga -- the guys I think it suits the most), and they STILL manage to be a thorn in Cena's side.

* CM Punk - they've wrestled before, but not enough that it's been done-to-death. If Punk and Cena ever find themselves in a feud again, I'd like to see Punk actually come out on top, and really play with Cena's head. While it's easy to imagine Cena yelling "This is America! We have free choice here!" it's just as easier to imagine Punk retorting "Yes, Cena; but what is the right decision to make?" He could really get in Cena's head by playing off his status as the face of the company, and putting him in the position where he has to either agree with Punk, or look like he's flying in the face of a good message.

And while that is going on, Cena can gets wins against Luke Gallows and Joey Mercury to keep him strong, before Punk manages to worm his way to victory.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by jskinnyg I think Edge was about the closest thing to the big Heel Nemesis that Xero's talking about here... Orton was good, but just didn't fit as well as the Cena/Edge feuds... Even though Cena is such a HUGE draw merch wise for WWE, Even the greatest like SCSA, The Rock, Hogan, Jericho, HHH, Taker & HBK did VERY well in Merch sales whether they were faces or heels... Up until now I understand the No switching to Heel status for Cena... But it smells right, right NOW to do it... Otherwise he is just gonna be a damn face his whole career and never be put up there with those mentioned above... an ALL-AROUND perfomer that can pull both heel & face off... p.s. I am BACK!

Look no further than the interview with Austin.

The biggest merch sellers in the Attitude Era were mostly anti-hero types. Austin and Rocky were biggest sellers as faces, even if they were faces that acted heelish. Hogan sold as a face as part of nWo, the same deal in WCW.

The era's different. WWE is competing with children's programming. The market sells products primarily to younger kids who like cartoony stuff. Now, it's possible Cena could recoup some of that by appealing to adults, but then you're talking about turning away a large and willing audience in favour of one you have already distanced yourself from.

What was it Lance said about Jim Ross? Best wrestling commentator bar none, but Vince isn't looking for a wrestling commentator, he wants a voice to talk up his weekly episodic programming?

I doubt WWE creative gives a shit if Cena is considered a great all-around performer, as long as his work equals fat paychecks for the company. Remember, WWE is slowly distancing itself from pro wrestling and even "sports entertainment."

Further, WWE doesn't really care what the IWC thinks is right. They give the older fans a nod or two, but this is primarily a kids show now. WWE went TV-14, then TV-PG. Sex, blood, and a lot of the violence have gone by the wayside, and I question whether guys like Austin would work if they got their break in this environment. Heck, there's a reason DX returned in a kiddie friendly format. Well, became a kiddie friendly format. DX sells product. Face DX can be sold to kids. Ergo....