MLB 2010-2011 Off Season Thread

[Hanso Amore]

Bagwell was never even one of the 5 best players in the league at any point in his career.

I think he is a HOFer, but not a sure 1st ballot player. All of your reasons why he is, are actually just signs of his 2nd tier greatness.

HOLY BALLS! 35th HIGHEST SLUGGING! Thats a stat of someone in the hall, but not someone that must be.

[Vox Populi]

Originally Posted by Hanso Bagwell was never even one of the 5 best players in the league at any point in his career.

Well, except for that one year where he unanimously won the MVP award, the other seasons where he finished top 5, and several other seasons where statistically speaking he clearly should have but was penalized by voters for playing on a bad team.

Other than that, though, never.

[Hanso Amore]

Originally Posted by Vox Populi Well, except for that one year where he unanimously won the MVP award, the other seasons where he finished top 5, and several other seasons where statistically speaking he clearly should have but was penalized by voters for playing on a bad team. Other than that, though, never.

Yes, because MVP = Best player in the league.

I can name 15 players that are better than Joey Votto right now in the MLB.

And that includes pitchers. FYI.

Bags was never one of the top 5 players in his era.

Griffey, Bonds, Johnson, Clemens, Gwynn, etc etc

Name a year in his career and I can tell you at least 5 better players at that point in time.

[Aguakate]

Originally Posted by Hanso Yes, because MVP = Best player in the league. I can name 15 players that are better than Joey Votto right now in the MLB. And that includes pitchers. FYI. Bags was never one of the top 5 players in his era. Griffey, Bonds, Johnson, Clemens, Gwynn, etc etc Name a year in his career and I can tell you at least 5 better players at that point in time.

It's not about being one of the best players in the game, or all that.

The letters MVP stand for MOST VALUABLE PLAYER.

Valuable to who?

To the team that player plays for.

So in terms of MVP, Joey Votto was the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER to the Cincinnati Reds, a team that had been a losing franchise for some time, until last year.

Just because you win the MVP, doesn't necessarily mean you are one of the Top 5 players in the game...and just because you are one of the Top 5 players in the game, doesn't necessarily mean you should be MVP.

How many MVP awards did Hank Aaron win? One. Yet he was the first guy to break Babe Ruth's all time Home Run mark (Ruth also won one MVP award).

Yet guys like Jimmy Rollins, Terry Pendleton, Jeff Kent and Willie McGee have also won MVP awards, yet they never were "Top 5 players" when they won the award. They just were the MOST VALUABLE PLAYER to their team.

[Vox Populi]

Right, except that's not what you said initially at all.

Originally Posted by Hanso Bagwell was never even one of the 5 best players in the league at any point in his career.

1994 was a point in Bagwell's career. It could be rationally argued that Greg Maddux was better in 1994 than Jeff Bagwell, though since that was an unusually strong pitching season, Bagwell's numbers produce a higher WAR and WARP. Aside from Maddux, no one else came close. That's it.

1997 was a point in Bagwell's career. In that year, he was by all overall statistial measures the fifth best player in all of baseball. In 1999, only Pedro, Pudge and Chipper beat out Bagwell, and Pudge only does once his position is factored in. 2000-1 are another two years where most statistical measures place him in the top 5.

Again, by quite literally every reputable source and account, the ONLY more productive offensive player than Bagwell over the course of Bagwell's entire career was Barry Bonds. I'd go so far as to add Greg Maddux to the list on the pitching side, effectively making Jeff Bagwell the third best player in all of baseball from 1991 to 2005. Other than that, you're looking at a ton of pitchers who had peaks and valleys during Jeff's career, and a bunch of offensive players whose offensive output he simply dwarfed from '91-'05. Thomas would be his only other real competition in that regard had his peak and subsequent decline not occurred so early on.