Del Rio: The Lesnar Push?

[Onyx]

I'd be more likely to look at Del Rio as a champion if they gave him a credible IC title run first. Plus the IC title could use a good boost anyway.

[Snowden]

Originally Posted by Onyx I'd be more likely to look at Del Rio as a champion if they gave him a credible IC title run first. Plus the IC title could use a good boost anyway.

Why? He's beaten both the current US and IC champions, as well as almost every other midcard face on the roster. What would he have to gain carrying around a second tier belt for a couple of months when they've already booked him above the division?

[Onyx]

Originally Posted by Snowden Why? He's beaten both the current US and IC champions, as well as almost every other midcard face on the roster. What would he have to gain carrying around a second tier belt for a couple of months when they've already booked him above the division?

By your logic, since Triple H has defeated The Undertaker before, he has nothing to gain from defeating him at WrestleMania. Hell, by your logic, why bother having titles at all if all that matters is defeating the person who is/would be champion.

What does he have to gain? How about credibility as a champion rather than just an effective heel? How about showing the people he can do a good job holding a title rather than just beating the person that does? For that matter, if he is as impressive as you say, then not only would he benefit from holding the IC title, but the IC title would benefit from having him hold it. It would be nice to see an up and coming main eventer (who isn't a former world champion) hold the IC title to make that belt mean something again. Too often the title just seems to be given to someone who isn't going anywhere, where it was once the stepping stone to becoming a world champion. Stone Cold, The Rock, HBK, Ultimate Warrior, Bret Hart....they all had the IC title not long before their first world title run, and it served them well.

Miz had a successful US Title run recently before winning the WWE title, and I think it helped make him look like a believable champion before winning a world title.

You can hang on Del Rio all you want, the man does nothing for me right now, he hasnt been on tv long enough or had any gold, so I won't look at him as a credible world champion even if he does with the world title at Mania, which odds are, won't even be the main event. I bet you right now Cena vs. Miz and Triple H vs. Taker go on after Edge vs. Del Rio.

Oh, and furthermore, I never said they should give him an IC title run NOW. He should have gotten it while they were building him up. A month or two before the Rumble would have been nice timing. Jeez everyone has to complain before they think.....

[Snowden]

Originally Posted by Onyx By your logic, since Triple H has defeated The Undertaker before, he has nothing to gain from defeating him at WrestleMania. Hell, by your logic, why bother having titles at all if all that matters is defeating the person who is/would be champion. What does he have to gain? How about credibility as a champion rather than just an effective heel? How about showing the people he can do a good job holding a title rather than just beating the person that does? For that matter, if he is as impressive as you say, then not only would he benefit from holding the IC title, but the IC title would benefit from having him hold it. It would be nice to see an up and coming main eventer (who isn't a former world champion) hold the IC title to make that belt mean something again. Too often the title just seems to be given to someone who isn't going anywhere, where it was once the stepping stone to becoming a world champion. Stone Cold, The Rock, HBK, Ultimate Warrior, Bret Hart....they all had the IC title not long before their first world title run, and it served them well. Miz had a successful US Title run recently before winning the WWE title, and I think it helped make him look like a believable champion before winning a world title. You can hang on Del Rio all you want, the man does nothing for me right now, he hasnt been on tv long enough or had any gold, so I won't look at him as a credible world champion even if he does with the world title at Mania, which odds are, won't even be the main event. I bet you right now Cena vs. Miz and Triple H vs. Taker go on after Edge vs. Del Rio. Oh, and furthermore, I never said they should give him an IC title run NOW. He should have gotten it while they were building him up. A month or two before the Rumble would have been nice timing. Jeez everyone has to complain before they think.....

First of all, your analogy is completely bogus. Secondly, how does my "logic" dictate that I don't think we should bother having titles? My point was that they've organically built up Del Rio as above that division without the title. Likewise, they've done it while allowing other guys to hold gold, and therefore get a rub from it. If their plans were to build Del Rio as a main event talent from the start, you don't have to throw a title around his waist to do so.

Instead, they gave Daniel Bryan/Dolph Ziggler reigns with the strap that did something for their credibility. There guys weren't built from the start as top caliber competitors, so their "ability to hold a title" means a damn. The same thing goes ESPECIALLY for Miz. The guy was booked at the bottom of the barrel when he got to the 'E, so showing a slow progression upwards made complete and total sense in establishing his credibility. Del Rio's character, however, was built as a man who talked main event shit, and backed it up in spades. From day 1, he called out, and beat, a former world champion. He's been booked as much better than the usual rookie, and thus, didn't take the same steps.

Second tier titles can do the job, I agree. But they aren't a necessary prerequisite for a world title run. And to be frank, pushing a future star trumps temporarily building up the Intercontinental title...especially because second tier title prestige is so transient. Do the unified tag titles mean more NOW because Jericho and Big Show held it a year ago? Do the Corre look better because of it? No, not really. But building Del Rio as a main event star, that CAN stick. Plus, if they wanted to give him an IC title run and push him the same way, he'd most likely have to drop the strap beforehand. Yeah, they can get creative where he wouldn't eat the pin, but still, why have him lose at all?

And you're completely entitled to your opinion...and where he falls at the top of the card is relatively inconsequential, he's still got a world title match at Mania.

And I knew what you meant, so how bout you "think before you complain."

[Onyx]

Originally Posted by Snowden First of all, your analogy is completely bogus. Secondly, how does my "logic" dictate that I don't think we should bother having titles? My point was that they've organically built up Del Rio as above that division without the title. Likewise, they've done it while allowing other guys to hold gold, and therefore get a rub from it. If their plans were to build Del Rio as a main event talent from the start, you don't have to throw a title around his waist to do so. Instead, they gave Daniel Bryan/Dolph Ziggler reigns with the strap that did something for their credibility. There guys weren't built from the start as top caliber competitors, so their "ability to hold a title" means a damn. The same thing goes ESPECIALLY for Miz. The guy was booked at the bottom of the barrel when he got to the 'E, so showing a slow progression upwards made complete and total sense in establishing his credibility. Del Rio's character, however, was built as a man who talked main event shit, and backed it up in spades. From day 1, he called out, and beat, a former world champion. He's been booked as much better than the usual rookie, and thus, didn't take the same steps. Second tier titles can do the job, I agree. But they aren't a necessary prerequisite for a world title run. And to be frank, pushing a future star trumps temporarily building up the Intercontinental title...especially because second tier title prestige is so transient. Do the unified tag titles mean more NOW because Jericho and Big Show held it a year ago? Do the Corre look better because of it? No, not really. But building Del Rio as a main event star, that CAN stick. Plus, if they wanted to give him an IC title run and push him the same way, he'd most likely have to drop the strap beforehand. Yeah, they can get creative where he wouldn't eat the pin, but still, why have him lose at all? And you're completely entitled to your opinion...and where he falls at the top of the card is relatively inconsequential, he's still got a world title match at Mania. And I knew what you meant, so how bout you "think before you complain."

Yeah, and my point was that it does nothing for me. I don't see him as a world champion. I couldn't care less if they put the belt on him or not, I still won't see him as a world champion. Too much, too soon with nothing really leading up to it. You have to crawl before you can walk. And if Del Rio wins the belt it will feel more like they gave it to him rather than him earning the right to wear it. You can complain about it all you want, but a Del Rio World Title run still doesn't appeal to me at this time, but had he had a secondary title run, it would have.

Talking about how Bryan, Ziggler, and Miz weren't built as top guys, and therefore benefited from secondary title runs proves my point PERFECTLY. Thank you for that. And as I mentioned earlier on, I feel Del Rio would have benefited too, had they gone a similar route with him instead of just bringing him in, shooting him to the moon, and saying "yes, he's awesome. believe it." Sorry, but no. I don't believe it. Not yet. As you mentioned, a title run helped the other guys, so it would obviously had helped Del Rio.

So in your world, we can either build Del Rio OR build the IC title? That's what your argument says. I'm guessing the idea of multitasking would be lost on you.

And your right, building Del Rio as a star quickly CAN stick. Of course it can. Let's ask Jack Swagger how well it worked for him. He's going to WrestleMania. Granted, it's in Michael Cole's corner, but hey, he's still going without having to buy a ticket. Maybe next year Del Rio can be in the corner of one of the Divas? Because, you know, these main event pushes have proven themselves to always pan out so well in the long run.

And why would he have had to drop the IC title before WrestleMania? That would be pointless and completely unnecessary. Come on, dude. Seriously. Think. Warrior didn't drop it when he took on Hogan. Champion vs. Champion matches are interesting, and lets face it, it's not like the WWE has big plans for the IC title or the US title at WrestleMania anyway. It's not complicated. Del Rio wins the IC belt before the Rumble, brags about how after the Rumble he'll add another title to his collection, and he takes the IC belt to WrestleMania. If he loses at Mania, he still has a title to defend and build himself back up. If he wins the World Title at Mania then he can either be a double champion for awhile (again, the WWE doesn't seem to have big plans for the IC title these days anyway), or he can just say out with the old and in with the new and dump the IC title, leading up to an IC title tournament which could, again, get some interest in the IC title by making it look like something worth chasing. OH SNAP! Did you see what I just did? I found a way to give a rub to BOTH Del Rio AND the IC Title in one storyline. Something that, based on your last post, you didn't seem to think could happen. It's called killing two birds with one stone. It's also called......"THINKING." Learn it, live it, love it.

Despite the fact you typed a lot in your response, you still didn't manage to really say anything. You just got your little feelings hurt so you had to come out here and save face by running your mouth. And you proved....what exactly? That they should have done what they did and not bothered giving Del Rio a secondary title, why? I JUST proved they could have done it better by giving him the IC title. Unfortunately, you failed to listen to my advice of thinking before you speak. Don't feel bad though, it takes practice. You'll get it. Eventually.

[Snowden]

Originally Posted by Onyx Yeah, and my point was that it does nothing for me. I don't see him as a world champion. I couldn't care less if they put the belt on him or not, I still won't see him as a world champion. Too much, too soon with nothing really leading up to it. You have to crawl before you can walk. And if Del Rio wins the belt it will feel more like they gave it to him rather than him earning the right to wear it. You can complain about it all you want, but a Del Rio World Title run still doesn't appeal to me at this time, but had he had a secondary title run, it would have. Talking about how Bryan, Ziggler, and Miz weren't built as top guys, and therefore benefited from secondary title runs proves my point PERFECTLY. Thank you for that. And as I mentioned earlier on, I feel Del Rio would have benefited too, had they gone a similar route with him instead of just bringing him in, shooting him to the moon, and saying "yes, he's awesome. believe it." Sorry, but no. I don't believe it. Not yet. As you mentioned, a title run helped the other guys, so it would obviously had helped Del Rio. So in your world, we can either build Del Rio OR build the IC title? That's what your argument says. I'm guessing the idea of multitasking would be lost on you. And your right, building Del Rio as a star quickly CAN stick. Of course it can. Let's ask Jack Swagger how well it worked for him. He's going to WrestleMania. Granted, it's in Michael Cole's corner, but hey, he's still going without having to buy a ticket. Maybe next year Del Rio can be in the corner of one of the Divas? Because, you know, these main event pushes have proven themselves to always pan out so well in the long run. And why would he have had to drop the IC title before WrestleMania? That would be pointless and completely unnecessary. Come on, dude. Seriously. Think. Warrior didn't drop it when he took on Hogan. Champion vs. Champion matches are interesting, and lets face it, it's not like the WWE has big plans for the IC title or the US title at WrestleMania anyway. It's not complicated. Del Rio wins the IC belt before the Rumble, brags about how after the Rumble he'll add another title to his collection, and he takes the IC belt to WrestleMania. If he loses at Mania, he still has a title to defend and build himself back up. If he wins the World Title at Mania then he can either be a double champion for awhile (again, the WWE doesn't seem to have big plans for the IC title these days anyway), or he can just say out with the old and in with the new and dump the IC title, leading up to an IC title tournament which could, again, get some interest in the IC title by making it look like something worth chasing. OH SNAP! Did you see what I just did? I found a way to give a rub to BOTH Del Rio AND the IC Title in one storyline. Something that, based on your last post, you didn't seem to think could happen. It's called killing two birds with one stone. It's also called......"THINKING." Learn it, live it, love it. Despite the fact you typed a lot in your response, you still didn't manage to really say anything. You just got your little feelings hurt so you had to come out here and save face by running your mouth. And you proved....what exactly? That they should have done what they did and not bothered giving Del Rio a secondary title, why? I JUST proved they could have done it better by giving him the IC title. Unfortunately, you failed to listen to my advice of thinking before you speak. Don't feel bad though, it takes practice. You'll get it. Eventually.

First of all, I have absolutely no fucking clue how you've taken this from a debate on the merits of Del Rio's push, to a personal attack. You need to chill the fuck out if me questioning your ideas really got under your skin this much buddy, if you can't debate shit without stooping to petty jabs, you've got a lot to learn. BUT, even though I'm getting the sense you're egging me on, I'll bite on your bullshit.

And before I start, I find it hi-larious that one of your critiques was my long response, when you started this whole mess by typing out a mess of paragraphs for my original two sentence post. I can't help if you said a lot of things I disagree with, and thus need some space to respond to your shit in kind.

But you already know that.

Anyway, here's what I'm getting at. First of all, your appreciation, and mine for that matter, of Del Rio's abilities are almost inconsequential to the discussion, as we're just really talking about the nature of the push. However, I understand what you're saying, in that you don't "see" him as a World Champ because he came into the company so soon. You're thinking along these lines...in wrestling, like in most other sports, rookies come in and take their lumps, start at the bottom, and slowly progress upwards until blossoming into their full potential, hitting the "prime" of their careers. That is EXACTLY what they did with Miz, are doing with Ziggler and Bryan, have done with Punk, etc etc etc etc.

However, there are talents in any sport (real or fake) who sometimes defy these stereotypes, and are just ultra talented from the beginning. Best example I can think of? Ichiro Suzuki, though I'm not sure if you're a baseball fan. He, like Del Rio, came over to play in the "big leagues" from a foreign country. Like Del Rio, he burst onto the scene...and in his rookie season, won the AL MVP. If Del Rio, like Ichiro, wins the title at Mania, he'll be getting the same type of push. You act like its outside the realm of possibility, when really, its just a rarity to have that type of "transcendent talent" come along. Now, as I said earlier, we can debate to the high hills if Del Rio is worth of being pushed as a said transcendent talent, but the fact of the matter is that that is exactly what his push is based around...and it makes sense.

Your argument for Swagger doesn't hold any water, because he was given the title quickly AFTER being built from the bottom. He was treading water for ages before winning MITB, was stagnant. But Del Rio is not a stop-start push, its COMPLETELY different.

And buddy, my argument isn't that there aren't tangible scenarios where Del Rio winning the title isn't ludicrous. My ARGUMENT is that if they're pushing Del Rio to the moon as is, they can use the IC title to elevate someone else in the process. You're not killing two birds with one stone, you're using two stones to kill one bird. Let Kofi hold the title, get into a program at WM, and maybe let him go 6-8 minutes with Drew McIntyre or something, giving both of those guys some exposure on the big stage in a one on one match. As ABT said, Del Rio carrying the IC title into Mania for a world title match makes it a piece of jewelry, a set piece in a bigger storyline, and frankly, an overshadowed title.

And yeah, if he wins the big belt and is stripped/dumps the title, it automatically makes the title look below Del Rio, therefore nixing its credibility. And if he doesn't win the WHC, and then jobs to some midcarder, they'll get a rub but he'll be moved down the card, hurting his main event standing. See Sheamus, King for a reference on how that looks.

And, having just read your post again, I have one final *thought.* Get off your motherfucking high horse. If you act like your ideas are absolute godsends all the time, and take an arrogant, condescending attitude to those who disagree with you, everyone's going to see you as an absolute douche. Maybe you are that, maybe you're just being compensatory, or maybe you just don't "get it." But christ alive, acting like a petulant, arrogant brat won't get you shit.