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Old 08-06-2011, 04:19 PM   #1
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Christian vs Randy Orton Appreciation Thread
I just want to use this thread to sing my praises for the Christian/Orton rivalry. I know the whole CM Punk/Cena/Vince/Triple H thing on Raw is the biggest thing going on in WWE right now, but the World title storyline on Smackdown is one of the best feuds we've seen in years, and I have absolutely nothing but good things to say about it.

Orton has really helped Christian step up as a legit main-eventer, and likewise, Christian has really made Orton step-up in ring work. Before this I was 50/50 with Orton, he was 'ok', but his matches always followed the same formula. Right now his character has really been spot on, and his ring work has really intensified. Christian on the other hand has been able to become over as a serious heel without the comedy, whilst still having legit reasons for doing/saying the things he does. Both men really bring out the best in each other.

What really got my attention regarding this storyline is how it has done something no storyline has done for a long time... it's maintained it's fire after a long duration of time.

After four months of the Nexus storyline, the IWC were already second-guessing and criticizing the writers decisions. Back in 2007/2008 most of the IWC's spite was aimed at 'Cena and Orton AGAIN?!'. But right now, Orton and Christian are preparing for their forth PPV singles match in a row, and I am as excited about it as I was the first time around. To make a typical Attitude-Era reference, it beckons to the days when Austin and Rock would headline PPV after PPV and never get boring no matter how many times we saw it.

We all bitched and moaned when Christian lost the title after a few days, but look what developed from it! I for one, hope this feud continues well after Summerslam... maybe the next PPV could involve a triple threat or a fatal-four-way, to spice things up, as long as these two remain the core of the rivalry.

An unexpected jewel that I never would have predicted when Orton won that first title match after the Draft, this angle may be overshadowed by the CM Punk stuff happening on Raw right now, but it is definitely one of the best, well-written and well-paced angles we've seen in a long, long time.
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Old 08-06-2011, 04:24 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammsteinmad View Post
We all bitched and moaned when Christian lost the title after a few days...
no we didn't, that would have been the usual suspects

But yeah, it's been good. The Extreme Rules (I think, the first PPV match they had anyway) match would probably have been the consensus best match this year if Punk hadn't gone from useful hand to one of the hottest stars on the planet almost overnight
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Old 08-06-2011, 07:25 PM   #3
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I appreciate good rasslin. This feud is good. The end.
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Old 08-06-2011, 07:32 PM   #4
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It's no Trish/Mickie James, but it's going pretty well.
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Old 08-07-2011, 01:08 AM   #5
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Triple threat eh? Y2J should be the third win the belt then feud with cm punk and unify the titles for a second time.
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Old 08-07-2011, 01:31 AM   #6
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Well, at least the uprising that was caused by Christian losing the WHC a couple days after winning it is a thing of the past...as is all the talk of Christian not getting pushed, not being used properly, etc.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:59 AM   #7
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It's okay. I really want Christian to keep the belt championship.
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Old 08-07-2011, 05:28 AM   #8
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It's been an interest fued to watch and it has given SD better matches in the process. My only complaint with it so far is the fact Christian won the belt via DQ. Seems WWE is content to make Christian look weak one way or the other. Good to see Christian being on top, but it looks like he'll be a trasitional champ any time he gets a title run...
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Old 08-07-2011, 09:11 AM   #9
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Christian is meant to be a slimebag heel, guy. It makes perfect sense he won the World Heavyweight Title that way. Personally, I find his current character really interesting. It's kind of annoying that he's going for the cheap heat, but I love Christian, so I can forgive it. Everything else he has absolutely nailed. Also, with wins over Zeke Jackson, John Morrison and Randy Orton since winning the title, they've actually done their best to get him over as a credible heel champion.

Personally, I want Christian to retain the World Heavyweight Title at SummerSlam. I think there are still legs on this feud, with Captain Charisma finding a way to screw Orton again, giving them a PPV break (perhaps Sheamus can move up and be Christian's next challenger), only for Christian/Orton to finally come to a head at Hell in a Cell. If any feud deserves that match this year, it's theirs.
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Old 08-07-2011, 10:31 AM   #10
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I agree the way he's "screwing over" Orton is an interesting approach, but having him win via DQ makes him look weak. Sure, it draws him more heat and makes him look sneaky and intelligent, but ultimately it craps on his character. I just find it weird he's portrayed as a guy that can't beat Orton cleanly. We all know he's as talented as Orton, if not better. Not to mention he owns Orton on the mic. So, claiming he can't win any other way than cheating the system is a slap in the face to him and his talents...
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Old 08-07-2011, 11:30 AM   #11
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In fact CCM, Christian having to find his own way to win is what has kept this feud alive and interesting for me. If Orton and Christian were exchanging clean title victories the angle probably wouldn't go so smoothly. Christian has wins over other people that keep him legit, and he got a clean win over Orton on Smackdown.
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Old 08-07-2011, 01:21 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captaincharismark View Post
I agree the way he's "screwing over" Orton is an interesting approach, but having him win via DQ makes him look weak. Sure, it draws him more heat and makes him look sneaky and intelligent, but ultimately it craps on his character. I just find it weird he's portrayed as a guy that can't beat Orton cleanly. We all know he's as talented as Orton, if not better. Not to mention he owns Orton on the mic. So, claiming he can't win any other way than cheating the system is a slap in the face to him and his talents...
I think I see where the "mark" part of your name comes from now. Christian winning the title the way he did doesn't "crap on his character". It DEFINES his character. Heels don't have to be booked strong. They hardly ever are, actually. That's sort of what makes them heels. If Christian were a babyface and won the title that way, then you may have a point.

On a side note, I will say that NOW I am buying Christian as a heel.
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:50 PM   #13
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I think I see where the "mark" part of your name comes from now. Christian winning the title the way he did doesn't "crap on his character". It DEFINES his character. Heels don't have to be booked strong. They hardly ever are, actually. That's sort of what makes them heels. If Christian were a babyface and won the title that way, then you may have a point.

On a side note, I will say that NOW I am buying Christian as a heel.

My not liking Christian winning the title by DQ had nothing to do with him being heel. It was a good move for drawing heat, but piss poor in making him a credible champion. How can we accept Christian as a top guy if he's booked as the guy who can't defeat Orton cleanly? It's lazy booking for his character and yet another way of making him look inferior. And I beg to differ on heels being booked strong. HHH, The Rock, Austin, Taker, Kane, Big Show and etc were all booked as strong, dominating heels. Of course, WWE's track record as using Christian as nothing more than a transitional champion seems to be apparent here. I'll bet you when it comes to Christian defeating Orton cleanly at SS, it'll never happen. Which IMO is an insult b/c Christian is IMO way more talented than Orton. Having a character not looking weak has absolutely nothing to do with them being either heel or face. Funny how my knowledge of the inner workings of wrestling is always assumed to be "marking" rather than for what it is. In this case is WWE using Christian as a place holder champ for Orton. If Christian were face and Orton were heel and the booking was the same, I'd be bitching the same way.
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:56 PM   #14
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Nah man, you are marking. When Triple H, The Rock, and Austin were heels, they resorted to underhanded tactics to win as well. Kane and Big Show are exceptions because they're FARKING HUGE and nothing but domination would make sense. Having Christian cheat to win isn't lazy booking. It's what's making this whole thing interesting, and it's not a slap in the face to him to be booked that way.

It's this simple:

The crowd is supposed to boo Christian. That doesn't happen when he wins a respectable contest in a convincing fashion. That would just make the crowd respect him.

And who cares if Christian is a placeholder champion? He's still a champion, which is a lot more than a lot of people have gotten the chance to say. Your "knowledge" of "inner-workings" is "bullshit". I'm all for some one playing the devil's advocate in a thread to generate conversation, but you don't have any legs to stand on here, my friend.
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Old 08-07-2011, 02:57 PM   #15
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Taker, Kane and Big Show were all booked as strong dominating heels because they are all 7' monsters and booked that way regardless.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:00 PM   #16
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Right. Christian is a midget compared to a lot of WWE guys. I know wrestling isn't "real" and I know that Christian is ultra talented, but how would it look if he just started tossing Randy Orton around the ring, talking about how his heart doesn't pump Kool Aid?
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:05 PM   #17
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Is it possible to get a clean win in a street fight?
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:06 PM   #18
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Nah man, you are marking. When Triple H, The Rock, and Austin were heels, they resorted to underhanded tactics to win as well. Kane and Big Show are exceptions because they're FARKING HUGE and nothing but domination would make sense. Having Christian cheat to win isn't lazy booking. It's what's making this whole thing interesting, and it's not a slap in the face to him to be booked that way.

It's this simple:

The crowd is supposed to boo Christian. That doesn't happen when he wins a respectable contest in a convincing fashion. That would just make the crowd respect him.

And who cares if Christian is a placeholder champion? He's still a champion, which is a lot more than a lot of people have gotten the chance to say. Your "knowledge" of "inner-workings" is "bullshit". I'm all for some one playing the devil's advocate in a thread to generate conversation, but you don't have any legs to stand on here, my friend.

I believe most of this is stuff I covered in the "can you buy Christian as a heel" thread. I'm not marking, I simply hate the way WWE pushed Christian as a filler champion. I actually think him cheating to win is a good idea, but not when he never gets a pinfall victory. If he's pushed as a guy that can't beat Orton, who honestly takes him seriously as champ? I know I for one don't think using his character as a punching bag for Orton is a good idea. After a certain point, the fued will go flat if Christian never uses his heel tactics as a way to defeat Orton for a 3 count.

Like I said before, WWE's track record with Christian being pushed strongly isn't great. So, I'm not surprized when he's booked as a fluke champion. It happened in 2005, and it's happening again now. Which again has nothing at all to do with him being heel or face. I'd say it has more to do with WWE dropping the ball with him. As far as my playing devil's advocate to generate conversation, I do that for a reason. Most here call someone names or flame them if they don't agree with them. In this case is disguised as someone like you thinking you know more about this subject than me. That is funny to me since it has nothing to do with marking out and more about lazy booking.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:07 PM   #19
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Is it possible to get a clean win in a street fight?

That's deep, bro.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:12 PM   #20
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Right. Christian is a midget compared to a lot of WWE guys. I know wrestling isn't "real" and I know that Christian is ultra talented, but how would it look if he just started tossing Randy Orton around the ring, talking about how his heart doesn't pump Kool Aid?
Again, it comes down to the size issue. Surely Christian finding clever ways to pin Orton couldn't be any worse Rey Mysterio beating every top big guy in WWE cleanly. That 80's way of thinking is total BS since guys like HBK, Benoit, Guerrero and etc have dominated all the big guys. Now who's a mark? WWE has brainwashed it's fans into thinking a smaller guy can't dominate a big guy. In "real" life, several smaller guys have whipped big guys asses b/c of that stupid streotype.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:12 PM   #21
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Quote:
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I believe most of this is stuff I covered in the "can you buy Christian as a heel" thread. I'm not marking, I simply hate the way WWE pushed Christian as a filler champion. I actually think him cheating to win is a good idea, but not when he never gets a pinfall victory. If he's pushed as a guy that can't beat Orton, who honestly takes him seriously as champ? I know I for one don't think using his character as a punching bag for Orton is a good idea. After a certain point, the fued will go flat if Christian never uses his heel tactics as a way to defeat Orton for a 3 count.

Like I said before, WWE's track record with Christian being pushed strongly isn't great. So, I'm not surprized when he's booked as a fluke champion. It happened in 2005, and it's happening again now. Which again has nothing at all to do with him being heel or face. I'd say it has more to do with WWE dropping the ball with him. As far as my playing devil's advocate to generate conversation, I do that for a reason. Most here call someone names or flame them if they don't agree with them. In this case is disguised as someone like you thinking you know more about this subject than me. That is funny to me since it has nothing to do with marking out and more about lazy booking.
Summer Slam hasn't even happened yet, you know. Who's to say Christian won't pin Orton there?

All that aside, you're blatantly rejecting the basic dynamics of heels and faces that have been a part of wrestling for...well, forever. It's the very foundation for what they do, and I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it's definitely not going to change...unless you want to watch TNA where everybody respects each other, but I don't wish that upon anyone.

Also, I know infinitely more than you. I have read many leather-bound books pertaining to wrestling, and my quarters smells of rich mahogany. Just so you know.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:13 PM   #22
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One of the things that has kept this fued going strong in my opinion is that Christian hasn't beat Orton cleanly in a singles match yet.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:15 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla View Post
Also, I know infinitely more than you. I have read many leather-bound books pertaining to wrestling, and my quarters smells of rich mahogany. Just so you know.
Do you have WCW/NWO Thunder for the playstation?
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:17 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by captaincharismark View Post
Again, it comes down to the size issue. Surely Christian finding clever ways to pin Orton couldn't be any worse Rey Mysterio beating every top big guy in WWE cleanly. That 80's way of thinking is total BS since guys like HBK, Benoit, Guerrero and etc have dominated all the big guys. Now who's a mark? WWE has brainwashed it's fans into thinking a smaller guy can't dominate a big guy. In "real" life, several smaller guys have whipped big guys asses b/c of that stupid streotype.
If it fits the character, then sure. Benoit was an uber-aggressive, powder keg of skill and emotion. That made sense. HBK is a silly example. Do you remember when he first turned heel? He was cheating left and right to win, and it was fine. After many years though, he reached a legendary status where it was just accepted that he could beat anyone, and all of THAT came from his face runs. Guerrero cheated in every single match, heel or face, because that was his character.

Oh, and I can't even believe that I forgot this, but CHRISTIAN FUCKING PINNED RANDY ORTON ON SMACKDOWN.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:18 PM   #25
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Do you have WCW/NWO Thunder for the playstation?
And Mayhem.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:18 PM   #26
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I said that above somewhere... if I recall it was clean too.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:19 PM   #27
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And Mayhem.
Then your knowledge truly surpasses everyones.

(Loved Mayhem back in the day).
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:20 PM   #28
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Summer Slam hasn't even happened yet, you know. Who's to say Christian won't pin Orton there?

All that aside, you're blatantly rejecting the basic dynamics of heels and faces that have been a part of wrestling for...well, forever. It's the very foundation for what they do, and I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it's definitely not going to change...unless you want to watch TNA where everybody respects each other, but I don't wish that upon anyone.

Also, I know infinitely more than you. I have read many leather-bound books pertaining to wrestling, and my quarters smells of rich mahogany. Just so you know.
It doesn't take a genius to see patterns here. Christian is booked as the guy who can't beat Orton, so they'll have him lose to Orton to continue this fued. A good move to keep an interesting storyline going, but not so much making Christian's character look strong. Not to say Christian pinning Orton isn't possible, but I'd say it's highly unlikely.

And again, you aren't understanding my meaning here. My whole beef with WWE is pushing Christian as somehow inferior to Orton. It has NOTHING to do with the heel or face dynamic. If Christian was face and being used the same way, I'd still be making the same argument.

Lastly, I think it's funny you claim to know infinately more about wrestling than me. Why? B/c you've read books. Wow, really knocked that ball outta the park on that argument. Talk about not having legs to stand on...
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:26 PM   #29
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If it fits the character, then sure. Benoit was an uber-aggressive, powder keg of skill and emotion. That made sense. HBK is a silly example. Do you remember when he first turned heel? He was cheating left and right to win, and it was fine. After many years though, he reached a legendary status where it was just accepted that he could beat anyone, and all of THAT came from his face runs. Guerrero cheated in every single match, heel or face, because that was his character.

Oh, and I can't even believe that I forgot this, but CHRISTIAN FUCKING PINNED RANDY ORTON ON SMACKDOWN.
The cheating isn't an issue here either. It's not booking his character so he benefits from it. What good does the cheating accomplish if he doesn't pin Orton one on one for the title??? All it does is uphold the WWE view that Christian is inferior to Orton. Which is a laughable suggestion to me.

Oh, and by the way, that victory you are talking about was in a TAG MATCH and not a one on one title match. And they made it look like Orton's focus wasn't on Christian. Other than blind folding Orton, what other possible way could Christian look worse???
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:27 PM   #30
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So yeah, this is some feud right?
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:28 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captaincharismark View Post
It doesn't take a genius to see patterns here. Christian is booked as the guy who can't beat Orton, so they'll have him lose to Orton to continue this fued. A good move to keep an interesting storyline going, but not so much making Christian's character look strong. Not to say Christian pinning Orton isn't possible, but I'd say it's highly unlikely.

And again, you aren't understanding my meaning here. My whole beef with WWE is pushing Christian as somehow inferior to Orton. It has NOTHING to do with the heel or face dynamic. If Christian was face and being used the same way, I'd still be making the same argument.

Lastly, I think it's funny you claim to know infinately more about wrestling than me. Why? B/c you've read books. Wow, really knocked that ball outta the park on that argument. Talk about not having legs to stand on...
You've made it pretty clear that it doesn't take a genius to ignore patterns either. Christian is being booked as inferior to Orton because his character is...well, inferior to Orton. There's definitely a hierarchy in WWE, and Orton's character is just better than Christian's character. It's not a knock to Jay Reso. It's just what makes storylines interesting.

If Christian was a face, you wouldn't HAVE to make the same argument, because he WOULDN'T BE BOOKED THIS WAY. How can I be so sure, you wonder? Did you happen to catch any of his run as ECW champion? A face run where he was beating everyone cleanly in hard-fought, respectable matches? That really wasn't too long ago, you know. Being a heel or being a face has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with it, and I can't understand why that isn't sticking for you.

.....and come on, bro. Did you really think I was serious with the book comment? Really? Seriously? I'm joking with you a bit. Yes, I disagree with you, but we can still have some fun, can't we? Rammsteinmad obviously knew that part was a joke.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:29 PM   #32
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I was being serious :foc:
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:30 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captaincharismark View Post
The cheating isn't an issue here either. It's not booking his character so he benefits from it. What good does the cheating accomplish if he doesn't pin Orton one on one for the title??? All it does is uphold the WWE view that Christian is inferior to Orton. Which is a laughable suggestion to me.

Oh, and by the way, that victory you are talking about was in a TAG MATCH and not a one on one title match. And they made it look like Orton's focus wasn't on Christian. Other than blind folding Orton, what other possible way could Christian look worse???
It benefits Christian's HEEL character to resort to HEELISH tactics to WIN matches.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:30 PM   #34
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I was being serious :foc:
Oh. Um. Me too. :foc:
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:35 PM   #35
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You've made it pretty clear that it doesn't take a genius to ignore patterns either. Christian is being booked as inferior to Orton because his character is...well, inferior to Orton. There's definitely a hierarchy in WWE, and Orton's character is just better than Christian's character. It's not a knock to Jay Reso. It's just what makes storylines interesting.

If Christian was a face, you wouldn't HAVE to make the same argument, because he WOULDN'T BE BOOKED THIS WAY. How can I be so sure, you wonder? Did you happen to catch any of his run as ECW champion? A face run where he was beating everyone cleanly in hard-fought, respectable matches? That really wasn't too long ago, you know. Being a heel or being a face has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with it, and I can't understand why that isn't sticking for you.

.....and come on, bro. Did you really think I was serious with the book comment? Really? Seriously? I'm joking with you a bit. Yes, I disagree with you, but we can still have some fun, can't we? Rammsteinmad obviously knew that part was a joke.
My whole point was that Christian being pushed as inferior to Orton in any context is a joke in itself. And I'm not ignoring patterns here. If you were paying any attention to Christian, you'd know he's been booked as inferior even as a face. What about his loss to Ezekiel Jackson for the ECW Title on the last ECW? Or his loss to Orton, 2 FUCKING DAYS AFTER WINNING IT??? The last I checked, he was still face during that time, thus I would have the same argument. I can't see why you are ignoring the obvious. Christian is booked as a shitty competitor on any level. Even in ECW, he was holding a mid card title and not a top tier belt. And now that he's in the ME, he's still being screwed over. Basically, you are talking semantics as far as I'm concerned.

And yeah you may have been joking, but from what I've seen of your views on here, you actually believe that to some degree. All your arguments reek of being egotistical and self righteous. To claim you meant that purely as a joke is a cop out...
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:36 PM   #36
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Is it possible to be 'screwed over' when you're holding the World Championship?
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:38 PM   #37
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It benefits Christian's HEEL character to resort to HEELISH tactics to WIN matches.
Winning and getting a pinfall are clearly two different things. How does he "benefit" from being called inferior to Orton on a weekly basis? If anything, it makes it that much tougher for him to be taken seriously. Even the way he won the belt is an effort to make him look like a joke of a champion.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:39 PM   #38
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Is it possible to be 'screwed over' when you're holding the World Championship?
Don't kid yourself, WWE is screwing Christian over. They've never seen him as a star, and the way he's being used, it's apparent they never will.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:42 PM   #39
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I dunno... two World Championship reigns is a lot more than Charlie Haas ever got.
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Old 08-07-2011, 03:46 PM   #40
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My whole point was that Christian being pushed as inferior to Orton in any context is a joke in itself. And I'm not ignoring patterns here. If you were paying any attention to Christian, you'd know he's been booked as inferior even as a face. What about his loss to Ezekiel Jackson for the ECW Title on the last ECW? Or his loss to Orton, 2 FUCKING DAYS AFTER WINNING IT??? The last I checked, he was still face during that time, thus I would have the same argument. I can't see why you are ignoring the obvious. Christian is booked as a shitty competitor on any level. Even in ECW, he was holding a mid card title and not a top tier belt. And now that he's in the ME, he's still being screwed over. Basically, you are talking semantics as far as I'm concerned.

And yeah you may have been joking, but from what I've seen of your views on here, you actually believe that to some degree. All your arguments reek of being egotistical and self righteous. To claim you meant that purely as a joke is a cop out...
You know that Christian had beaten Ezekiel Jackson previous to that match, right? You also know that Orton beating Christian was to plant the seeds for his heel turn, right?

Christian in the top champion on Smackdown right now. I really don't know what else you're expecting. He has multiple wins against Randy Orton. Yes, they've all been conniving and cunning victories, but they are victories none the less. That is the ENTIRE point of this feud. Call me self righteous for realizing that, but that's what it is.

I wasn't copping out of anything, either. The rest of that post, I meant. That last part was clearly a fucking joke, and I don't mean to call you names, but you are pretty dumb if you didn't realize that. If you want to do it your way, I will be Lance Storm with you from here on out. I was just trying to lighten the mood a bit.
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