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Old 09-03-2011, 04:21 AM   #41
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Oh, I know you did.
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Old 09-03-2011, 04:23 AM   #42
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That promo when Swagger had all of his life achievements in the ring with him was classic. You know you'd order a 'Swaggie' sandwich if you saw it on a menu.
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Old 09-03-2011, 04:24 AM   #43
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Honestly, I'd go as far as to say that the most recent feud to do the most significant amount of damage to the validity of the WHC was Edge v. Kane.
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Old 09-03-2011, 04:27 AM   #44
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That's what I mean, his promos were comedy gold. Even the stuff with his "dad". And the Swagger Soaring Eagle was classic.
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Old 09-03-2011, 04:27 AM   #45
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Honestly, I'd go as far as to say that the most recent feud to do the most significant amount of damage to the validity of the WHC was Edge v. Kane.
Ha. I was gonna bring that up.
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Old 09-03-2011, 10:43 AM   #46
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I think swaggers reign was alright but now with him losing and being in the mid card and superstars it doesn't help the belts cred
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Old 09-03-2011, 01:34 PM   #47
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I really doubt people still even associate Jack Swagger with the WHC.
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Old 09-03-2011, 01:39 PM   #48
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Think about it this way...a sports team that sucked one year could feasibly win the championship the very next year...and then fade back into obscurity the year after that. Does that make the championship look weak, or does it make it feel like it's anybody's game?

WWE is put forth to us as the absolute BEST wrestlers in the world, so anybody under contract there should be able to win against anyone at any time. Some are better "on paper" than others, but no one should ever be counted out. People have hot and cold streaks, and it's really not that weird.
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Old 09-03-2011, 01:44 PM   #49
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I loved the Swagger Facts.
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Old 09-03-2011, 01:46 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anybody Thrilla View Post
Think about it this way...a sports team that sucked one year could feasibly win the championship the very next year...and then fade back into obscurity the year after that. Does that make the championship look weak, or does it make it feel like it's anybody's game?

WWE is put forth to us as the absolute BEST wrestlers in the world, so anybody under contract there should be able to win against anyone at any time. Some are better "on paper" than others, but no one should ever be counted out. People have hot and cold streaks, and it's really not that weird.
you know that's actually a really good way to look at it. agree
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Old 09-03-2011, 03:13 PM   #51
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Quote:
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Think about it this way...a sports team that sucked one year could feasibly win the championship the very next year...and then fade back into obscurity the year after that. Does that make the championship look weak, or does it make it feel like it's anybody's game?

WWE is put forth to us as the absolute BEST wrestlers in the world, so anybody under contract there should be able to win against anyone at any time. Some are better "on paper" than others, but no one should ever be counted out. People have hot and cold streaks, and it's really not that weird.
That was a really surprising read and it made a whole lot of sense. Pretty sure I will view John Cena as the Lakers from this point forward.
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Old 09-03-2011, 11:55 PM   #52
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Jack Swagger's World Heavyweight Title reign was pure gold. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and I look forward to Swagger's next shot in the main event. Or for him to win the United States Title and have a huge All-American American American Celebration.
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Old 09-04-2011, 03:22 PM   #53
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So Jack Swagger is The Mavericks and Mark Henry is Lebron.
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Old 09-04-2011, 04:15 PM   #54
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Basically
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Old 09-04-2011, 04:52 PM   #55
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That was a really surprising read and it made a whole lot of sense. Pretty sure I will view John Cena as the Lakers from this point forward.
I thought Cena was the Yankees according to Punk?
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Old 09-04-2011, 05:23 PM   #56
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I think the World Heavyweight Title has lost its prestige over the years - it really hasn't meant anything since Triple H last held it and lost it to Batista at Mania 21. It's sad, but true.

Obviously that has a lot to do with the fact that it was on RAW during that time, around the waist of the "biggest name in the company", and since then its been relegated to Smackdown, which will always be regarded as the second tier show. I believe it regained some steam when CM Punk was feuding over the World Title against Jeff Hardy, and then while Undertaker held it and feuded with Edge, but after that, the list of champions is pretty weak.

Rey Mysterio, Kane, Dolph Ziggler, and even, I'm sorry to say, Christian holding the World Title (and being treated as a fluke champion) have not done anything to help raise the level of respect surrounding the World Title. Say what you want about those guys, but when Kane, who has been beaten by just about everyone, is holding the "richest prize in the industry", you have to question whether or not its really that important or not.

I also believe that its lost prestige recently due to the amazing angle surrounding the WWE Championship with Cena, Punk and now Del Rio. I'll actually be kind of surprised if they don't go ahead and unify the championships at Mania.
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Old 09-04-2011, 07:07 PM   #57
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Unify the WWE and World Heavyweight titles and acknowledge the big gold belt as the Undisputed title. Or just get a new belt. What I am getting at people is that we need to get rid of the spinner belt.
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Old 09-05-2011, 02:59 PM   #58
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But it doesn't spin anymore.
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Old 09-05-2011, 08:18 PM   #59
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Yeah you know, I can't for the life of me figure out why a company would treat a title they acquired from a rival company with less prestige than their own title. Or, of you're the kind of goof who can't accept that the WHC IS the WCW title, we're at least talking about a title less than ten years old vs the title that was the company's crown jewel for decades. The question in my mind has always been why has it ever been placed above the WWE title?
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Old 09-06-2011, 12:42 AM   #60
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But it doesn't spin anymore.
I know. Poor choice of words. But then again it was refereed to as the spinner belt all across the globe by the elite members of the IWC.
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:24 PM   #61
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Elite? Like who?
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Old 09-06-2011, 09:25 PM   #62
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I honestly think that the 'spinner' belt looks fine now that it doesn't spin, but I really wish it said "CHAMPION" on it and not "CHAMP". Looks tacky.
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:15 PM   #63
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Elite? Like who?
Really?

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I honestly think that the 'spinner' belt looks fine now that it doesn't spin, but I really wish it said "CHAMPION" on it and not "CHAMP". Looks tacky.
I couldn't agree more.
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Old 08-01-2012, 04:11 AM   #64
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Just give him the damn title


So glad that Mark Henry got to be the World's Heavyweight Champion.
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Old 08-01-2012, 12:19 PM   #65
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Now a mtach with John Cena is more prestigious than the WWE title.
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Old 08-02-2012, 04:13 PM   #66
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Now a mtach with John Cena is more prestigious than the WWE title.
That is a tad silly, but you've at least got to give them some credit for attempting to keep Cena away from the title for as long as they have. It feels like Punk's current direction will be touching upon the point you're making here, and it could potentially be very interesting.
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Old 08-02-2012, 06:02 PM   #67
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I think its due to two things with one being RAW being the self-proclaimed "flagship" show of the WWE and the WWE title was always going to have more significance than the World title.

Only reason the World title had any high significance was due to Triple H owning it and its resemblance to WCW's Big Gold belt.

Once the WWE title got drafted to RAW, the World title basically became like Smackdown for most of the Brand Split Era where the WWE rarely puts any real focus on the title. It really became noticeable how almost every ppv had the World title match occur first and being relegated to show openers quite a few times unlike never with the WWE title.
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Old 08-02-2012, 06:29 PM   #68
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The only time a WWE Championship match opened a PPV was at this year's Elimination Chamber.
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Old 08-03-2012, 03:00 AM   #69
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FYI: 3rd last on the card is called the "Feature"
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Old 08-03-2012, 08:52 PM   #70
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Makes sense, as the second to last match is probably a piss break before the main.
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:35 AM   #71
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Thats why the Second to last match is usually a match with the womens title on the line
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Old 08-04-2012, 12:10 PM   #72
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Didn't Punk defend his WWE title against Jericho second last at this year's Wrestlemania?
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Old 08-04-2012, 02:25 PM   #73
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Wrestlemania is different. Even if that match was there, there were two shitty performances from Flo Rida and Machine Gun Kelly to play the role of piss break. You're not going to get that every month...thankfully.
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Old 08-04-2012, 02:27 PM   #74
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I still didn't hate Flo Rida's performance
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Old 08-04-2012, 02:28 PM   #75
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:23 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
FYI: 3rd last on the card is called the "Feature"
I didn't know that. Thanks for sharing that info. Is there anything else you can teach us about card structure? I've been really interested in that lately -- the perfect template to a top-to-bottom good show.

To me, an opener should be a hot match to get the crowd pumped with acts people know, that are over, but won't steal the show too early. In my opinion, Kofi Kingston & R-Truth, Santino Marella, Rey Mysterio or Christian would make the great opening act for a PPV, because they are over, entertaining workers and could win a match to get the show off to a "rolling start."

Your main event is clearly the match that people want to see. On television, I can understand why they've given such importance to John Cena segments. I do think that they could get away with making the technical last match on PPVs CM Punk's matches or even Sheamus'. People have already bought the PPV, so you can safely put on the WWE Champion or World Heavyweight Champion you are trying to establish and make them feel "important."

In the modern era, the "Feature" match seems like it is your "semi-main event" or something that might involve The Undertaker at WrestleMania. Something special that you aren't going to hang your show on. Randy Orton, at this stage of his career, seems like a feature performer, as do World Heavyweight Title matches. I do think that some shows could really benefit with a WWE Tag Team Title match being the feature bout, or just a really strongly built blow-off to a great feud. Jericho and Ziggler, if it weren't SummerSlam coming up, would be a great feature match, I think, with that positioning on the card making the victory seem more important for either man than it would if placed in the opening slot.

Cool-off spots are important, and I have a feeling that at this year's SummerSlam, Heath Slater will end up getting beaten down by a legend or Shell-Shocked by Ryback in that spot.

I've gone off on a bit of a tangent, but card structure really interests me. It's definitely an important part to presenting a good show that you don't hear discussed much around here, despite "such and such should be the main event."
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:36 PM   #77
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To get back on topic, I think something working against the World Heavyweight Title is that the brand split no longer matters. Don't get me wrong -- that's not a complaint -- I'm getting used to RAW and SmackDown being open playgrounds for any member of the WWE roster. What I think hurts the World Title, though, is that if SmackDown guys like Daniel Bryan and Randy Orton can technically challenge for the WWE Title, and RAW guys can win the Intercontinental Title, then they all exist in open water and thus the company has got two open divisions claiming to crown "The Best in the World." It makes no sense, and could even be confusing to casual fans.

Unification can't really happen until after WrestleMania next year. The Rock will be challenging for the WWE Title at the Royal Rumble and Dolph Ziggler has a shot at the World Title. I guess that Ziggler could use his shot, become the champion and then we could get title unification in time for The Rock to challenge the one champion of the WWE at the Royal Rumble. Personally, I think it would add importance to a "World Title match." It'd also be more gruelling if the Elimination Chamber PPV were the final test for the WWE Champion before WrestleMania. Maybe next year's could even be for the right to challenge The Undertaker at WrestleMania? It'd be a fresh concept for the PPV, since if The Rock wins the WWE Title, then he probably won't be working an Elimination Chamber match, although that would be cool.

The flip-side is, while I would get behind an Alberto Del Rio or Dolph Ziggler World Title reign, I can't really see a reason to end Sheamus' current run just yet. He's been the World Champion for months, but he's still steam-rolling ahead. There are potential PPV matches with Randy Orton, Wade Barrett and maybe even Rey Mysterio waiting. With the brand split being looser, you could even have Sheamus vs. Big Show, which would not be pretty, but Sheamus going over Show would still mean something. Sheamus vs. Christian in a TV match would be entertaining, and I think that given the right build, Sheamus vs. The Miz, who would be "taking the Intercontinental Title into the main event" would be a great story for a one-off PPV encounter between the two.

I'm actually all for Sheamus remaining World Heavyweight Champion until WrestleMania. I think it should be there that Dolph Ziggler cashes in and becomes the new World Champ. After that, I think it should be time to either consider unifying the titles, or going back to a stricter brand regiment. I think RAW could even remain three hours with an exclusive RAW roster. SmackDown would just go back to being the wrestling show with a smaller roster, RAW could feature longer matches with performers like Daniel Bryan, CM Punk and Christian featured on the brand, or more "divisions" could be given time, like specific segments to boost the tag team, women's and mid-card divisions. You could even give some NXT guys some time on the main show. Whatever it is, I think it could work. If that remained the same, I'd be all for the World Heavyweight Title sticking around.

When it comes to SmackDown exclusivity, you have a bunch of talent that I think would really benefit from being "SmackDown exclusive." Rey Mysterio and Alberto Del Rio, for example, always seem to be better used on SmackDown, which also does well with the Hispanic audience historically, which suits everyone just fine, it seems. While he is getting accustomed to the WWE style, the taped environment of SmackDown would be the perfect place for him to hone his skills. Hunico is also an act that I could see appealing to Hispanic audiences given the right twist, and his style would fit the show, so keep him and Camacho there and you have a mid-card act and potential tag team. Randy Orton has two suspensions to his name, so moving him out of the RAW spotlight and onto SmackDown where there isn't so much pressure would be a wise move, I think. While he is growing as a main event babyface, SmackDown could be Sheamus' stomping ground. There are many more that you could make exclusive to the show, but I think that would be a great way to make the show mean something again, and justify it having its own World Title.
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:43 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I didn't know that. Thanks for sharing that info. Is there anything else you can teach us about card structure? I've been really interested in that lately -- the perfect template to a top-to-bottom good show.

To me, an opener should be a hot match to get the crowd pumped with acts people know, that are over, but won't steal the show too early. In my opinion, Kofi Kingston & R-Truth, Santino Marella, Rey Mysterio or Christian would make the great opening act for a PPV, because they are over, entertaining workers and could win a match to get the show off to a "rolling start."

Your main event is clearly the match that people want to see. On television, I can understand why they've given such importance to John Cena segments. I do think that they could get away with making the technical last match on PPVs CM Punk's matches or even Sheamus'. People have already bought the PPV, so you can safely put on the WWE Champion or World Heavyweight Champion you are trying to establish and make them feel "important."

In the modern era, the "Feature" match seems like it is your "semi-main event" or something that might involve The Undertaker at WrestleMania. Something special that you aren't going to hang your show on. Randy Orton, at this stage of his career, seems like a feature performer, as do World Heavyweight Title matches. I do think that some shows could really benefit with a WWE Tag Team Title match being the feature bout, or just a really strongly built blow-off to a great feud. Jericho and Ziggler, if it weren't SummerSlam coming up, would be a great feature match, I think, with that positioning on the card making the victory seem more important for either man than it would if placed in the opening slot.

Cool-off spots are important, and I have a feeling that at this year's SummerSlam, Heath Slater will end up getting beaten down by a legend or Shell-Shocked by Ryback in that spot.

I've gone off on a bit of a tangent, but card structure really interests me. It's definitely an important part to presenting a good show that you don't hear discussed much around here, despite "such and such should be the main event."
You're right on most counts.

5-7 is typically perfect number if you dont have a super show going on with enough hype to keep the crowd into it. You want to have your open be your best match between the bells or at least whats your best match on paper. If its a company that the work rate is most over than your second best match opens. Opens should never have strikers the show needs to build into those kinds of workers/matches so clean wrestling with a good pace is what you like to get out of your open. Get the crowd popping. you can build to strikers but its difficult to build intensity backwards and keep people caring.

Second match is usally the one you have the least faith in. Hopefully the lead in from the open hides its flaws.

Feature on bigger shows is what in most cases would be your semi. Typically if you have a true double main event the first main is going on feature with a match to cool down the audience on semi so you dont blow the crowd up.

with main you want what ever is drawing the kids last. the kids are going to stay interested as long as what they want to see the most hasnt happend yet. once they've seen what they came to see they'll likely space out and become bored. kids suck lkie that. the parents have to stay enthused for the sake of their kids. plus one would hope they're smart enough to enjoy the matches that are for them when they happen and not give a shit about minor details like "why is my kids favorite in the main event?"

with indy shows you have intermissions so that plays a factor in what tone you want a match to have based off how it reflects the intermission but those are the major things.
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:14 PM   #79
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Thanks Destor.

That's pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking. Out of curiosity, which major event do you think had the best card structure? I ask because I was looking at WrestleMania X-7, which many consider to be the greatest WWE PPV of all-time, and the match order was as follows:

1. Chris Jericho vs. William Regal for the Intercontinental Title
2. Tazz & The APA vs. The Right to Censor
3. Raven vs. Big Show vs. Kane for the Hardcore Title
4. Test vs. Eddie Guerrero for the European Title
5. Kurt Angle vs. Chris Benoit
6. Chyna vs. Ivory
7. Vince McMahon vs. Shane McMahon in a Street Fight
8. Edge & Christian vs. The Hardy Boyz vs. The Dudley Boyz in a TLC Match for the WWE Tag Team Titles
9. Gimmick Battle Royal
10. The Undertaker vs. Triple H
11. The Rock vs. Stone Cold Steve Austin for the WWE Title

The main event is obviously in the right place. The opening match was, in my opinion, the best choice for opener. Jericho was super-over at the time, and Regal was a great heel foil to get beaten in 8 minutes after a good showing. I'll stop talking about how over acts were in 2001, because they all were -- but keeping in mind that they were certainly connecting with audiences, APA & Tazz vs. RTC was probably the match that was most "just there" on the card.
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:31 PM   #80
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Man im too indescisive to ever pick "best ever" of anything. But that's a great card. If you look how they place comedy between the gimmicks and the big semi and main they have too kinda reset the tempo. And the placement of the womens match after all the work rate. constantly changing the flavor of the show keeping it fresh across 11 matches. Great card.
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