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Old 12-21-2011, 05:08 PM   #1
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Is the WWE heading toward disaster?
Just read up on the steadily declining ratings and PPV buyrates of the WWE. If the Rock couldn't "save" Survivor's Series what will save the WWE?

Could it be that in the current culture the WWE's decline is more about the shifting audience than storylines, superstars or production values?

Is this just one of those periods the industry has seen between booms or is this the new way forward?

It's time to make TPWW MEAT again!

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Also have some popcorn.
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Old 12-21-2011, 05:16 PM   #2
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Is this thread posted every 6 months to a year? I mean everyoe always talks about how WWE i s going down and business is going down and WWE will go out of business and UFC beat up WWE but then every year WWE makes 463646346346643643 billion in profits.
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Old 12-21-2011, 05:29 PM   #3
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Is this thread posted every 6 months to a year? I mean everyoe always talks about how WWE i s going down and business is going down and WWE will go out of business and UFC beat up WWE but then every year WWE makes 463646346346643643 billion in profits.
Most of the ones I read in the past were about talent and show-direction. I'm merely asking this from a completely neutral position about show quality/direction. PPV buyrates, ticket sales, advertising and merchandise are what produces those profits. The bottom line is decreased when one or more of those factors fluctuate.

We are currently watching a downward trend in PPV sales. I don't have all the information, but it would seem that there is a negative trend in ratings as well. This is what I'm trying to figure out and internet sources for this question seem unreliable for the most part.
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Old 12-21-2011, 05:29 PM   #4
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I think they are currently in a great starting position to make things really good again. They just need to make the right decisions regarding certain things. For example:

- Decide who they are going to push and stick with it. It looks like Barrett, Rhodes, Ziggler, Sheamus and Ryder are all being given opportunity to shine. Don't let them fall victim to the start/stop booking problems.

- Stop undermining the guys they are trying to push as top guys. This means that guys like Miz and Truth don't get ripped to shreds verbally and phsyically by the likes of Cena and Rock. Also, as great as it is to hear Punk dishing out pipebombs to guys like Vince, Johnny Ace, HHH, etc, he should not be cutting off the balls of a guy like Alberto Del Rio. Yeah, he has his faults and I'm not a big fan of the guy personally, but if they intend to push him as a legit main eventer, don't have Punk come out and explain why the dude is shit.

- Someone needs to speak to Cena and curb the stuff he is doing to BURY guys. He needs to be instructed to sell properly, he needs to learn to react to situations with something other than a goofy smile.

Basically, they need to elevate their selected few to the level of Cena/Orton, not just below. People need characters they can believe in and that doesn't work if the end of the ascent to Main Event status is to be squashed by Cena/Orton.
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Old 12-21-2011, 05:38 PM   #5
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I think Mania will be the big tell. If they can't draw a bigger buy than the usual WM buy with Rock/Cena they may well be in trouble.

That said, it's not exactly ideal that Rock is involved. There's little point pulling a huge number based on a guy who won't be there for most of the year.
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Old 12-21-2011, 05:39 PM   #6
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Then again, I'm not a shareholder so couldn't care less about buyrates/ratings...
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Old 12-21-2011, 05:43 PM   #7
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Old 12-21-2011, 05:46 PM   #8
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Then again, I'm not a shareholder so couldn't care less about buyrates/ratings...
+1 for saying "Couldn't care less", the amount of people that say "Could care less" makes my head hurt
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Old 12-21-2011, 05:47 PM   #9
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But, I finally have her saying "It's broken" rather than "It's broke". Progress is progress.
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Old 12-21-2011, 05:49 PM   #10
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I'd say no mostly due to this being the traditional time of the year where the WWE is in its down period. Next month is the Rumble which is when they go back to being focused to generate the Mania hype.

If anything the WWE is trying out a lot more potential stuff, feuds, and pushes to see if any new stars can be made to benefit Mania or become future stars. For example Cody Rhodes didn't do much the previous year until he had the long buildup to Mania and eventual IC-level stardom.
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Old 12-21-2011, 05:50 PM   #11
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Trends don't change overnight. It didn't take them two months to get to the state they are in concerning ratings and buyrates, and it won't take two months to turn it around. Honestly, things had been fairly steady from 2004-2010 or so. A bit of a drop, but in the last year to year and a half, things have been getting worse.

Establishing guys is a big thing. And it's not just about "let's take Wrestler X, who has been a midcard jobber for years, and push him". It's going to take months to build someone like Swagger up just to be at a position where he's a new slate. If they thrust him into a position now, people will be saying "really, that guy"?

Much like I believe has happened with Henry. When someone who hasn't watched since 2010 hears that Mark Henry was the champion, they're just going to go "really, why?"

They need to stop the process of burying guys and start making everything, top to bottom on the card, be important at the very least to the guys who are in the segment. Cody squashing Santino does nothing for either one, for example.

I also honestly feel that Michael Cole's character needs a drastic overhaul or needs to go from the announce booth. It was cute at first, hell I'd say he was even good, but when he's on commentary making everything about him, it's going to not only turn people off from watching because he's downright annoying in a bad way, but also negate whatever is happening in the ring. Make him a manager who commentates during his wrestler's match only. Don't make him the fucking lead announcer.

And it's still going to take a long time, with word of mouth and good booking, for this to turn around for the long haul. There's going to be a natural upswing going into WrestleMania from the Rumble, and they need to harness that and hope that they can hold onto the people who come back for the Rock/Cena program. If they can't do that (and it's been shown as recently as the Summer of Punk that they can't) then they're in big trouble.

As for the question at hand. I think there's a natural shift in audience, especially because the little Cena marks are just now starting to grow up. However, if the product is hot enough, that shift is minimal because of new fans checking out the product as well as holding onto old fans in the process who would otherwise tune out. When the writing is so poor as it can be sometimes, that shift is going to be felt and felt hard.

I think a while ago I coined this era the "New Generation 2.0" era, and it does stand to reason. There are some shit gimmicks running around, but slowly but surely since 2009 guys are being established and getting over more. It's almost like, right now, we're at the dawn of the Attitude Era (early 97) where the turnover of the old guard is in full effect and the new guard is being completely established.

Also remember that even when the Attitude Era was starting to get red hot (late 97/early 98), RAW ratings were treading around the same spot and Nitro was still constantly beating them. It takes a while for people to take notice.

I think it's safe to say we're at the dawn of a new guard being established, but I'm not saying we're at the dawn of a new Attitude Era. Just that if the product continues to get better, they can remedy this. It just takes time.
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Old 12-21-2011, 05:53 PM   #12
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I'd say no mostly due to this being the traditional time of the year where the WWE is in its down period. Next month is the Rumble which is when they go back to being focused to generate the Mania hype.
The problem is that this hasn't just started now. For months now, there's been a trend, on almost every RAW, where WWE loses viewers in the second hour. This past week they lost 10,000 I believe. That's a sign that there's something drastically wrong with the product, not a natural down period in the calendar year.
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Old 12-21-2011, 06:01 PM   #13
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Honestly, Raw was more filler than killer for me this week.

A pointless squash match
A tag team match between guys that the audience are given no reason to care about
A rinse-repeat of the monthly "Setup the next challenger to the Diva's Title"

The Main Event, which to me felt fresh and new, creates a worry that if people turned off in the volume that Xero says they did, these guys aren't catching on with the "casual viewer".
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Old 12-21-2011, 06:06 PM   #14
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I may be wrong on that number (can't remember where I saw it, may not have been for this week), but according to PWInsider, it went from a 3.04 to a 2.81. That's a pretty enormous drop.

Also, this is from PWInsider, on last week's Slammy show, which explains this trend a bit:

The 12/12 Slammy edition of Raw did a 2.84 rating for the three hour broadcast, averaging 4,109,000 viewers. In its regular 9 to 11 timeslot, Raw did a 2.98 rating and averaged 4,327,000. Stop me if you have heard this before but the 9 p.m. hour did 332,000 more viewers than the 10 p.m. hour, which means the show lost viewers, yet again, as the evening progressed. And WWE can't even blame NFL football on ESPN as they had a dog of a game that only did a 7.2 rating and under 10 million viewers. Plus, there were some repeats on Network TV and Dancing With The Stars is over. This show drew its rating on merit.

Raw did hours of 2.55 at 8 p.m., 3.03 at 9 p.m. and 2.93 at 10 p.m.

--

There is something drastically wrong with a 300,000+ drop like that. They lost more viewers than people ordered Survivor Series. And going by the Slammy numbers, it's probably more close to 100,000 lost this week than 10,000.
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Old 12-21-2011, 06:12 PM   #15
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The way I see it, this lack of interest from the fans shows that the WWE's current gimmick has gotten stale. A heel turn would really freshen things up, IMO.

I think at the Royal Rumble, possibly during the Rumble itself, the WWE could just snap and beat the crap out of everyone. Then they could repackage the WWE as a badass submission machine who doesn't take shit from anybody.
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Old 12-21-2011, 06:13 PM   #16
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In fact, WWE could run an angle where WWE invades a television network and eventually takes it over on April 1st.
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Old 12-21-2011, 06:14 PM   #17
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if it is going to hell, then it is wwe's fault. the product is too formulaic. its not fresh. and they focus too much on things that won't keep the audience interested. its also a problem with the writing. it has nothing to do with being PG, as you can have a good product and be PG.



raw is more often than not the same thing every week. although i will admit lately it isn't always like that, but it still happens far too often to keep viewer interest. the matches are more or less the same though. someone gets beat down, cheesy comeback, match is over. rinse, repeat.
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Old 12-21-2011, 06:35 PM   #18
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Also remember that even when the Attitude Era was starting to get red hot (late 97/early 98), RAW ratings were treading around the same spot and Nitro was still constantly beating them. It takes a while for people to take notice.

Most of what you say makes a lot of sense. I just want to point out that the dynamics are a lot different now. During that period of time WCW had a shit-ton of loyal viewers and their product was constantly in the News. In addition to the loyal WCW viewers who never watched WWE, there were the casual fans that would switch channels throughout the broadcasts.

Most people who watch TNA also watch WWE. I think the audience for wrestling has shrunk dramatically since 1997 and I don't believe that it was UFC that took 'em all. I think wrestling for a lot of people was just a fad or a phase.

I even think the WWE realizes that they're going to need to create some main-stream buzz to recreate the boom. I guess we'll see if this new strategy of theirs will have an impact by Mania and this time next year.
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Old 12-21-2011, 06:37 PM   #19
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I think Mania will be the big tell. If they can't draw a bigger buy than the usual WM buy with Rock/Cena they may well be in trouble.

That said, it's not exactly ideal that Rock is involved. There's little point pulling a huge number based on a guy who won't be there for most of the year.
Rock/Cena itself may be a problem for fans who don't want Cena to win and expect that the regular will beat the dude from Hollywood. However, I expect this will get positive results. Hard to draw a line as to what level of success is worthy of Rock/Cena, though.

And yeah, it's kinda dumb to boast about numbers attributable to celebrties and names who won't appear regularly, but it is Wrestlemania.

Which is the other thing. Wrestlemanias tend to do really good anyway, and I don't think it's a watermark for the health of the brand. Even if it does really well or really poorly, a lot of factors can be involved. The overall downward trend is more important in terms of fiscal health and popularity.

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The way I see it, this lack of interest from the fans shows that the WWE's current gimmick has gotten stale. A heel turn would really freshen things up, IMO.

I think at the Royal Rumble, possibly during the Rumble itself, the WWE could just snap and beat the crap out of everyone. Then they could repackage the WWE as a badass submission machine who doesn't take shit from anybody.
So is The Royal Rumble still a babyface after this?
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Old 12-21-2011, 06:37 PM   #20
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Most of what you say makes a lot of sense. I just want to point out that the dynamics are a lot different now. During that period of time WCW had a shit-ton of loyal viewers and their product was constantly in the News. In addition to the loyal WCW viewers who never watched WWE, there were the casual fans that would switch channels throughout the broadcasts.

Most people who watch TNA also watch WWE. I think the audience for wrestling has shrunk dramatically since 1997 and I don't believe that it was UFC that took 'em all. I think wrestling for a lot of people was just a fad or a phase.

I even think the WWE realizes that they're going to need to create some main-stream buzz to recreate the boom. I guess we'll see if this new strategy of theirs will have an impact by Mania and this time next year.
This is defiunetely true I know some ppl who used to watch wrestling in the late 90's in junior high and high school but "quit" watching it later because they decided its not cool or "stupid".
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Old 12-21-2011, 06:47 PM   #21
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Then there are fans like me who might tune out for months to years just because of changing priorities.

For my demographic/niche it would be smart for the WWE to release their weekly programming and PPVs on DVD/netflix. Dunno if it'd be worth it, but I'd definitely watch the show.
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Old 12-21-2011, 06:56 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero View Post
I may be wrong on that number (can't remember where I saw it, may not have been for this week), but according to PWInsider, it went from a 3.04 to a 2.81. That's a pretty enormous drop.

Also, this is from PWInsider, on last week's Slammy show, which explains this trend a bit:

The 12/12 Slammy edition of Raw did a 2.84 rating for the three hour broadcast, averaging 4,109,000 viewers. In its regular 9 to 11 timeslot, Raw did a 2.98 rating and averaged 4,327,000. Stop me if you have heard this before but the 9 p.m. hour did 332,000 more viewers than the 10 p.m. hour, which means the show lost viewers, yet again, as the evening progressed. And WWE can't even blame NFL football on ESPN as they had a dog of a game that only did a 7.2 rating and under 10 million viewers. Plus, there were some repeats on Network TV and Dancing With The Stars is over. This show drew its rating on merit.

Raw did hours of 2.55 at 8 p.m., 3.03 at 9 p.m. and 2.93 at 10 p.m.

--

There is something drastically wrong with a 300,000+ drop like that. They lost more viewers than people ordered Survivor Series. And going by the Slammy numbers, it's probably more close to 100,000 lost this week than 10,000.
I have to question whether this is an issue with Target Audience vs Time Slot?

If they are targetting/branding themselves towards kids they are gonna gonna alienate the older causal fans, however, a 9 - 11pm timeslot seems awfully late for kids to be watching.

Could the mass turnoff at the midpoint be attributed in part to "bed time"?
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Old 12-21-2011, 07:29 PM   #23
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I was wondering what would happen if they pump a shitload of money into the WWE Network, and it goes bust.

Seems a dubious time to release a wrestling-specific channel when interest couldnt be lower.
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Old 12-21-2011, 07:30 PM   #24
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I don't think they're headed for disaster, but they are in a critical time, almost like a time of "transition".

Only the strongest will survive. Those who don't take advantage of the opportunity, will not.
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Old 12-21-2011, 07:46 PM   #25
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The way I see it, this lack of interest from the fans shows that the WWE's current gimmick has gotten stale. A heel turn would really freshen things up, IMO.

I think at the Royal Rumble, possibly during the Rumble itself, the WWE could just snap and beat the crap out of everyone. Then they could repackage the WWE as a badass submission machine who doesn't take shit from anybody.
or a vending machine
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Old 12-21-2011, 08:50 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by XL View Post
Then again, I'm not a shareholder so couldn't care less about buyrates/ratings...
This.

I never get why normal fans give a damn about what Raw's ratings are.

Either a show was good or it was shit, that's all I care about. What rating it garnered or buyrate it generated makes no difference to my life.
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Old 12-21-2011, 08:55 PM   #27
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For me it's the next evolution of the "smark".
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Old 12-21-2011, 09:10 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoFo View Post
I was wondering what would happen if they pump a shitload of money into the WWE Network, and it goes bust.

Seems a dubious time to release a wrestling-specific channel when interest couldnt be lower.
Probably go back to the WWE 24/7 on-demand model to help recover some of the costs.

They've been wanting their own channel for years but either they never got any big networks to help or the experience to run an actual channel. I remember Fox was somewhat interested in carrying WWE shows but never went as far as having them become their own channel as part of the Fox network.
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Old 12-22-2011, 01:46 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathtotheSwiss View Post
Just read up on the steadily declining ratings and PPV buyrates of the WWE. If the Rock couldn't "save" Survivor's Series what will save the WWE?

Could it be that in the current culture the WWE's decline is more about the shifting audience than storylines, superstars or production values?

Is this just one of those periods the industry has seen between booms or is this the new way forward?
No
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Old 12-22-2011, 01:53 AM   #30
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Then why did your mom?
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Old 12-22-2011, 02:15 AM   #31
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then why did my mom what?
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Old 12-22-2011, 03:13 AM   #32
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Yeah, I don't think that made sense.

And that's actually a decent thought, XL.
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Old 12-22-2011, 03:14 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhaps View Post
This.

I never get why normal fans give a damn about what Raw's ratings are.

Either a show was good or it was shit, that's all I care about. What rating it garnered or buyrate it generated makes no difference to my life.
Same here, bro
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Old 12-22-2011, 07:37 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhaps View Post
This.

I never get why normal fans give a damn about what Raw's ratings are.

Either a show was good or it was shit, that's all I care about. What rating it garnered or buyrate it generated makes no difference to my life.
It's what persuades people to bitch and moan. Having to rely on ratings and buyrates to make up their minds for them. There hasn't been a poor value of WWE RAW/Smackdown or PPV in the past 6 months in my view.
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Old 12-22-2011, 07:43 AM   #35
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I agree. TLC, SS, HIAC, NOC were good shows. what else was there I cant remember. Vengeance? It was decent I think. Summerslam was kinda meh other than the main event wasn't it? MITB was awesome. Overall the WWE has had a great second half to the year after a disappointing first (Rumble and Mania sucked IMO)
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Old 12-22-2011, 09:21 AM   #36
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Oh no! WWE is doomed. The end is near and the only promotion to fill the void is OCW and their red mat.
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Old 12-22-2011, 09:28 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XL View Post
I have to question whether this is an issue with Target Audience vs Time Slot?

If they are targetting/branding themselves towards kids they are gonna gonna alienate the older causal fans, however, a 9 - 11pm timeslot seems awfully late for kids to be watching.

Could the mass turnoff at the midpoint be attributed in part to "bed time"?
Congrats, you're now officially recycling my posts from three years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhaps View Post
This.

I never get why normal fans give a damn about what Raw's ratings are.

Either a show was good or it was shit, that's all I care about. What rating it garnered or buyrate it generated makes no difference to my life.
Yeah, I don't get why people would want perspective or the closest thing we, as fans can get to an overall viewpoint regarding the product.

But what confuses me even further is why you guys spend your time wondering about other people wondering what people think. That's kind of what you're doing. You're posting about something that doesn't make any difference in your life, specifically about people posting about something that doesn't make any difference in your life.

though maybe it's a douchey hipster thing. You do have Juan's support, after all.
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Old 12-22-2011, 09:30 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blakeamus View Post
It's what persuades people to bitch and moan. Having to rely on ratings and buyrates to make up their minds for them. There hasn't been a poor value of WWE RAW/Smackdown or PPV in the past 6 months in my view.
Yes, and the only way people could have a different opinion from you is if they rely on ratings.
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Old 12-22-2011, 10:46 AM   #39
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I think this is the beginning of a new wave. The ratings are down because people don't watch live or they pause it after an hour or fast forward through commercials. I bet most people who watch watch the whole thing, the rating just doesn't show that theywwatched it all consecutively.

Wwe needs to put its show online live as well. See who that gets. Why not?
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Old 12-22-2011, 10:55 AM   #40
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Is the WWE much worse in quality than it was in 2005/2006? Because it seems relatively consistent since about 2005 for me with some short periods of being really good and some periods of being really bad. But back in 2005 they were having single brand PPV's that (Vengeance 2005) outdrawing Survivor Series 2011 which featured the return of The Rock.

It's something that is beyond WWE's control.
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