Can Dolph Ziggler successfully turn face... or the first of a kind?

[Damndirty]

Is he destined to be a legendary heel like Ted Dibiase or Ric Flair (may be a stretch comparing anybody with the Nature Boy), a super popular face to lead the company....
or (possibly wishful thinking, but I would be really interested to see) maybe somebody that redefines what a heel and a face are, and this change brings in a more realistic approach to the sport that people will really dig.

My third possibility comes to mind because of the #Heel, and people are getting into it because it makes people feel less like the promotion is making them out to be gullible idiots, but it leaves open the grey area that allures new fans. We already seen wrestlers (like Austin and the Rock) promoted as heels, but become faces due to how the fans cherished them no matter where they stood. Dolph promoting his #Heel while fans cheer for him as Cena promotes himself as a face while people boo him may recreate the basis for wrestling politics.

The term "heel" may represent an independent person determined to seek individuality and creativity on their own terms instead of seeking the crowds approval of it, while the term "face" may represent a person who claims to stand with the crowd and plays it safe to get on their good side. Lately, people are starting to grow tedious with the sucking-up of faces and embracing the rebellious nature of the heels.

To me, this seems like what the new generation is leading up to, and Dolph Ziggler may be the one to shine the light on this if he keeps the #Heel even as a fan favorite. If it is, Dolph may have to come out and explain the concept of something like I mentioned without telling everybody,"I'm the bad guy out to stop the good the guy, you know, that same ol' bullshit that appears in comic books and movies.". Do you think this could work, or would the conventional pushing of faces and heels the way it's always been should stay the way it's always been?

[Sting Fan]

Heres my issue, you just said that people are getting into it because they feel like the company (Or Dolph) isn't treating them like there dumb... But you want him to come out and explain heel...

[What Would Kevin Do?]

I think WWE is slowly going to move away from the very strict heel/face dynamic. I mean, look at the CM Punk/Cena matches, and the upcoming Cena/Rock match. I think the WWE is getting to the point where they are recognizing that certain characters appeal to certain people, and it's somewhat silly to market someone in a way to isolate that fact.

Dolph's promo style (his quick, fast paced, sharp delivery promos), and his attitude could work really well as a face or a heel. The key is letting him continue to do it regardless of whether or not he's a bad guy.

I for one don't understand why more faces don't do heelish things. Cena loves the people who say Cena sucks apparently... Another example, Punk is all nice with the crowd right now... Why not let him rip into the crowd though, or the select members, when they chant for the Miz or someone over him?

[Damndirty]

Originally Posted by Sting Fan Heres my issue, you just said that people are getting into it because they feel like the company (Or Dolph) isn't treating them like there dumb... But you want him to come out and explain heel...

Let me specify that: The company would have to follow Dolph's lead if he explains it as the representation of non-crowd-following individual expression and not just a "bad guy" as people were being led to believe. I will have to admit though, there will be great risks to the company doing this too.

[Damndirty]

Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do? I think WWE is slowly going to move away from the very strict heel/face dynamic. I mean, look at the CM Punk/Cena matches, and the upcoming Cena/Rock match. I think the WWE is getting to the point where they are recognizing that certain characters appeal to certain people, and it's somewhat silly to market someone in a way to isolate that fact. Dolph's promo style (his quick, fast paced, sharp delivery promos), and his attitude could work really well as a face or a heel. The key is letting him continue to do it regardless of whether or not he's a bad guy. I for one don't understand why more faces don't do heelish things. Cena loves the people who say Cena sucks apparently... Another example, Punk is all nice with the crowd right now... Why not let him rip into the crowd though, or the select members, when they chant for the Miz or someone over him?

Yeah see! You understand where I'm coming from with this!

[Mr. Nerfect]

I would really appreciate deeper characters that aren't constrained to face/heel restrictions. We seem to be seeing that more on NXT and SmackDown!, but I'd like to see Dolph Ziggler be given some chances to stand out from other heels with his persona and abilities.

[Damndirty]

Originally Posted by Noid I would really appreciate deeper characters that aren't constrained to face/heel restrictions. We seem to be seeing that more on NXT and SmackDown!, but I'd like to see Dolph Ziggler be given some chances to stand out from other heels with his persona and abilities.

Me too, simply because people can relate to more realistic personalities. I mean, seriously, who actually would believe heels just all of a sudden hang out together because they're all bad guys who, for no reason at all, create a grudge against the promoted good guy just because he is the promoted good guy? Heels should have grudges against one another out of greed or pride if anything, just teaming up on the top face makes them look weak and a waste of their talent.

[Sting Fan]

At the risk of bagging on WWE to much (If there is such a thing) unless a lot has changed in the last 2 years they cant prebook an angle now without screwing it up.

Heels and faces gives writers an easy fall back.

Imagine the possibility's for screw ups if they don't have those boundary's to work in. At least now heel A teams with heel B because face A is aligned with face B.

I like the idea, I just don't trust WWE to do it anyway right. If they could however I think it would be a rebirth of wrestling in the mainstream.

[Damndirty]

Originally Posted by Sting Fan At the risk of bagging on WWE to much (If there is such a thing) unless a lot has changed in the last 2 years they cant prebook an angle now without screwing it up. Heels and faces gives writers an easy fall back. Imagine the possibility's for screw ups if they don't have those boundary's to work in. At least now heel A teams with heel B because face A is aligned with face B. I like the idea, I just don't trust WWE to do it anyway right. If they could however I think it would be a rebirth of wrestling in the mainstream.

You are right not to trust WWE to do this correctly, not yet at least. The executives have gotten so paranoid over getting sued that they don't even care about how popular trends can get. Hell, before Zack Ryder and Punk came ontop, WWE wasn't even paying attention to the internet very much at all, they didn't know that most fans were web-based, and when they did, BAM, Twitter this Twitter that, Facebook this Facebook that. WWE's problem is that in the process of dwelling on the legal issues, they refuse to realize how much they are a GIANT contributing factor to, not only the trends of wrestling, but the trends of the whole generation of the WORLD, but only when people are tuning into their shows more than any other. The more they play it safe out of paranoia, the more opportunities they blow to keep themselves safe from getting booted. Perhaps this is the real reason they invented the WWE Network, because they were in threat of just that.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Originally Posted by Noid I would really appreciate deeper characters that aren't constrained to face/heel restrictions.

[Sting Fan]

While I agree they did ignore the internet truth is they still do as we know it.

Most kids have a cellphone at age 12 now, that's what there following, trends on twitter etc, not people sitting on a wrestling board although they have taken some cues from these type of boards. And rightfully so on both counts I feel.

The really exciting time to be a fan will be a couple years from now when those kids who are driving the product via social media now hit the angsty teen years and the product will go with them I feel.

Funnily enough if you look at late 80s wrestling vids it was late 80s kids who pushed the product on in the 90s as they grew into teens and later took there own kids to events.

I think this generation of kids everyone is cursing now for being a bunch of cartoon loving morons essentially will do the same in a few years. Hell its happening right now with Cena as hes turned on more and more wek after week... Cue realisim, cue blood, cue the return of truly groundbreaking wrestling.

[Damndirty]

Originally Posted by Sting Fan While I agree they did ignore the internet truth is they still do as we know it. Most kids have a cellphone at age 12 now, that's what there following, trends on twitter etc, not people sitting on a wrestling board although they have taken some cues from these type of boards. And rightfully so on both counts I feel. The really exciting time to be a fan will be a couple years from now when those kids who are driving the product via social media now hit the angsty teen years and the product will go with them I feel. Funnily enough if you look at late 80s wrestling vids it was late 80s kids who pushed the product on in the 90s as they grew into teens and later took there own kids to events. I think this generation of kids everyone is cursing now for being a bunch of cartoon loving morons essentially will do the same in a few years. Hell its happening right now with Cena as hes turned on more and more wek after week... Cue realisim, cue blood, cue the return of truly groundbreaking wrestling.

I can't argue with that at all. They are still ignoring vital parts of it. They try to turn people to the net, but the execs don't go there to find out what people are really saying what they want. They go by loose polls and numbers, not real voices, and maybe, like you said, they will catch on, but at this time, they only "follow" trends instead or recognizing that "they" are the trends. The truly groundbreaking wrestling in my eyes is a good step forward, otherwise, what exactly are they promoting here?
The thing I look to is them to continue bringing something to the table that promotions like UFC aren't bringing, and that is the appearance of legitimate grudges that keep focused on the fact that the opponents have some form of dispute that would "seem" to have some real hatred or beef behind it, not try to get a cheap pop or jeer doing something repetitively after or before every match (like running into the ring to defend a guy getting beat up and just standing in the ring after the "heel" leaves and looking him down, or holding up the chair after hitting someone with it to make people cheer, it's very very cliche') stuff like that doesn't even make the dispute look realistic. Cena and Punk's pre-Money in the Bank build-up was perfect, and there is no reason they couldn't do more stuff like that (not too much because it will also become cliche', but more often than hardly ever at all).

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

I can argue with it. Cartoons are awesome. If anything kids in the 80s watched a lot more cartoons than this generation. That's why Netflix streaming has a shitton of 80s and 90s cartoons on streaming.

[Damndirty]

Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon I can argue with it. Cartoons are awesome. If anything kids in the 80s watched a lot more cartoons than this generation. That's why Netflix streaming has a shitton of 80s and 90s cartoons on streaming.

Yeah, but the generation of kids in the 80s watching those cartoons are doing so now because they didn't have the chance to watch all the episodes in their childhood days. In those times, you either had an antennae for low class, cable for middle class, and satellite (and eventually internet) for high class families. Nowadays, low class families can have satellite AND internet to do so, and now all kids do is watch cartoons more than anything physical.

[Sting Fan]

Sigh, the cartoon portion of it was a commentary on the product as it has been based around Cena.

Not on the internet trolls who love cartoons.

[Damndirty]

Originally Posted by Sting Fan Sigh, the cartoon portion of it was a commentary on the product as it has been based around Cena. Not on the internet trolls who love cartoons.

I noticed that when they had the logo with the 8 bit Cena. The good ol days, but I'm not sure if the kids of now understand the meaning of it, but they understand the rest. Here in lies the problem. It looks like they were winking at Generation Y with that and the whole Backspin gimmick, but I don't think Generation Y is really buying into more than that, which is why they're probably pissed that WWE thinks that treating them like the kids they were during Hogan's time works again like it did in that time.

[Hanso Amore]

I love how your only choices are

LEGENDARY HEEL

SUPER POPULAR FACE

SOMEONE WHO COMPLETELY CHANGES THE BUSINESSES DYNAMIC

How about this one? Guy who was in the Upper Mid Card for Several years and then never stepped up. A Billy Gunn type.

Of course, its a foregone conclusion that a guy who is mainly over as a heel due to an annoying manager is going to go down as one of the best ever.

Ziggler is great in the ring, which doesnt mean as much today as it once did.

Ziggler doesnt draw money for shit. he isnt even on the Miz's level. So lets pump the brakes a bit.

[Damndirty]

Originally Posted by Hanso I love how your only choices are LEGENDARY HEEL SUPER POPULAR FACE SOMEONE WHO COMPLETELY CHANGES THE BUSINESSES DYNAMIC How about this one? Guy who was in the Upper Mid Card for Several years and then never stepped up. A Billy Gunn type. Of course, its a foregone conclusion that a guy who is mainly over as a heel due to an annoying manager is going to go down as one of the best ever. Ziggler is great in the ring, which doesnt mean as much today as it once did. Ziggler doesnt draw money for shit. he isnt even on the Miz's level. So lets pump the brakes a bit.

If I thought he would simply be kept a mid carder, then I wouldn't even make a thread about this. The point of my thread is the potential use they may have for him that could be something pivotal, and if they had no real use for him outside of being just another piss-on for the other main eventers (most who have absolutely no talent), then they are fucktards who don't realize that people are going to start turning the show off if they expect to see the same matches and same cliches repeated over and over every week. And as far as being on Miz's "level".... you're joking right?

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

What does "drawining" mean in this day and age? Every house show has a handful of main event stars. They aren't doing like three different shows in different cities with one top star main eventing the house show anymore.

There are so many stars on the show that its hard to tell who is drawing (or not drawing the ratings.) For the most part the belts are props today so the champion as the main star doesn't seem to be appopiate today either. John Cena gets as much air time as John Cena. Randy Orton and Wade Barrett were getting more time than Daniel Bryan or Mark Henry as champions.

[Damndirty]

Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon What does "drawining" mean in this day and age? Every house show has a handful of main event stars. They aren't doing like three different shows in different cities with one top star main eventing the house show anymore. There are so many stars on the show that its hard to tell who is drawing (or not drawing the ratings.) For the most part the belts are props today so the champion as the main star doesn't seem to be appopiate today either. John Cena gets as much air time as John Cena. Randy Orton and Wade Barrett were getting more time than Daniel Bryan or Mark Henry as champions.

The championships had more meaning before the brand split. The end to the brand split will be a good move forward.

[tjmidnight420]

Originally Posted by Damndirty The championships had more meaning before the brand split. The end to the brand split will be a good move forward.

Way to forget about your topic all together, boss. Usually the morons around here cling to it and warp reality to fit their topic, then sling meaningless insults when other people don't see things their way.

[Damndirty]

Originally Posted by tjmidnight420 Way to forget about your topic all together, boss. Usually the morons around here cling to it and warp reality to fit their topic, then sling meaningless insults when other people don't see things their way.

It has EVERYTHING to do with it so you better see it my way you butthole-fingering cock-swabbing hermaphroditical homoerotic pube-pulling shit-gargling stinkfucker! Damn man, you must psychic or something.

[whiteyford]

Originally Posted by Damndirty The championships had more meaning before the brand split. The end to the brand split will be a good move forward.

The championships only had more meaning when they were booked that way,all ending the brand split does is reduce the number of main event spots it doesnt magically fix shitty booking.

[tjmidnight420]

Originally Posted by Damndirty It has EVERYTHING to do with it so you better see it my way you butthole-fingering cock-swabbing hermaphroditical homoerotic pube-pulling shit-gargling stinkfucker! Damn man, you must psychic or something.

Meaningless insults you mangy troll.

Also, the topic is Dolph. Not the titles.

[Damndirty]

Originally Posted by tjmidnight420 Meaningless insults you mangy troll. Also, the topic is Dolph. Not the titles.

You got picked on at school today didn't you ya yella-toothed zit-lipped hairyass-cracked crotch-snorting fatboy-fondling probingly pedophilic piss slurper? Now, before you go and tell mommy I pickin on you and in the interest of you shutting the fuck up bitching about me not sticking to topic...... Dolph is blonde and sleeps with a fat mexican chick, what is not to love?

Be a star people!

[Damndirty]

Originally Posted by whiteyford The championships only had more meaning when they were booked that way,all ending the brand split does is reduce the number of main event spots it doesnt magically fix shitty booking.

Yeah, but having more than one main event doesn't draw a bigger crowd as having one did, and if anything to fix this without bringing the brands back together, they should have an Undisputed Championship match at every Wrestlemania between the two champions, and the Undisputed Champion cannot be challenged for it between Wrestlemanias. All in all, I will agree that this shitty booking and creative control has been ruining the company more than anything lately.

[whiteyford]

Having seperate titles allows more talent to pushed as main eventers,one undisputed title would push Ziggler even further down the list of contenders. Unifying the brands also negates the point of having two chamber matches and two MITB matches,both of which would probably feature Ziggler.

[MoFo]

Of course he can successfully turn face, he has a major advantage of Vickie in his corner at the minute. Shes so over as a heel that splitting from her would get you over as a face.

[Damndirty]

Originally Posted by whiteyford Having seperate titles allows more talent to pushed as main eventers,one undisputed title would push Ziggler even further down the list of contenders. Unifying the brands also negates the point of having two chamber matches and two MITB matches,both of which would probably feature Ziggler.

Ziggler is talented enough to get the title without MITB, which in my eyes, is only for talents who otherwise wouldn't have been given the chance for a long time.

[Damndirty]

Originally Posted by MoFo Of course he can successfully turn face, he has a major advantage of Vickie in his corner at the minute. Shes so over as a heel that splitting from her would get you over as a face.

Good point!