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Old 02-28-2012, 04:35 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
I know what you mean. And my example is valid. The only issue you could have with it is "Well, Tom Cruise would never actually do it" but that's irrelevant. If he did, he would automatically fit your definition of a great wrestler.
for your sake, if he actually did it and was at a level where he was "good" enough to be given a role as an active guy by Vince and got over (the "celebrity sheen" would wear off pretty quickly if he was on TV every week) then yeah, of course. You seem to be implying that Tom Cruise could train to be a wrestler and start as an active guy for Vince and remain over by default because he's already famous. And that's not how it works. Using your implication, he'd be great guest star. So yeah, not really valid at all.
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:58 PM   #42
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He'd appear on TV every month or so and draw huge. I'm not implying any qualifiers to it. You're doing that. He could wrestle once in a while as to not let the "celebrity sheen" wear off and he'd draw every time because of who he is.

I mean, is the job of everyone in entertainment just to draw in money/sales or are you making an exception for a wrestler? If you do use the same definition for all entertainment then would that mean David Hasselhoff is an amazing singer (the man has sold a shit ton of records worldwide), or Jersey Shore is a great TV show?
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:10 PM   #43
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Tom Cruise would draw for a few shows but fans will not continue to pay to see him in WWE just because he's a big movie star. He would still have to connect with the audience like any other wrestler.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:25 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
He'd appear on TV every month or so and draw huge.
After the initial stuff, no he wouldn't, he'd then have to get over/connect. And that kind of negates the rest.

But again for your sake/reply, like film, music etc, wrestling is a unique entity in entertainment while also maintaining some basic similar traits as other fields. Al Pacino is never going to be on Jersey Shore and The Situation is never going to be the lead in the next critically acclaimed, monster box office Christopher Nolan film.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:26 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BollywoodSingh View Post
Tom Cruise would draw for a few shows but fans will not continue to pay to see him in WWE just because he's a big movie star. He would still have to connect with the audience like any other wrestler.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:35 PM   #46
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Okay so... to clear this up really well and see what page we stand on...

Would you say Hulk Hogan and The Rock are/were better wrestlers than CM Punk? Considering both are/were significantly bigger draws.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:39 PM   #47
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lol you can't work that out from what I've posted and everything I ever post here? were these responses really just another "define wrestler" gimmick again?
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:41 PM   #48
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Because Chris jericho is awesome and the rock sucks!!
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:43 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Okay so... to clear this up really well and see what page we stand on...

Would you say Hulk Hogan and The Rock are/were better wrestlers than CM Punk? Considering both are/were significantly bigger draws.
"Looking at it from a business standpoint..."
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:43 PM   #50
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draw power will always have to take a large portion of goat conversations but the conversation can never be limited to that factor alone.

once you get into the convo of top draws (and thus goat level workers) the other pieces of the pie become relevent again.

example: hogans ability to draw alone out classes 99% of workers. but once you get into guys in the upper tier of making money things like workrate and the like start holding water again. thats why a guy like ric flair is the true goat. he drew comparable money (many years out drawing vince and co.,) could out work hogan, could out talk hogan, etc, etc etc.

...but jericho isnt on the same level as the rock is terms of drawing. so while his goat level workrate and mic skills let him enter the convo with guys like the rock he will always lose the debate. but we should never be so black and white. box office sales alone define goat no more than in wrestling. you have to take everything into consideration.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:44 PM   #51
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Tom Cruise would be a vanilla (sky) midget.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:52 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by CSL View Post
lol you can't work that out from what I've posted and everything I ever post here?
Yes, but I was trying to draw an ultimate conclusion so I was starting with that question. So I'll take that as a "yes"...

And I'll follow up with your definition of "wrestler" clearly being different. Just like in any other form of entertainment, everyone has their idea of who is better. It comes down to their opinion. Could be a valid opinion, could be batshit crazy but who draws more shouldn't come into the equation since so much more goes into that.

CM Punk was once a jobber while Eugene was actually over and making WWE money. Punk now draws while Eugene is jobbing in Ring Ka King. CM Punk did not suddenly BECOME a better wrestler than Eugene. Their situations changed. To narrow it down to "better draw = better wrestler" is to say the opposite of that and I don't see how you can have that definition. It's just nonsensical.

I could also bring in the fact that Vince chooses not to even consider his guys wrestlers anymore so you could actually say the best wrestler in the world by your definition is in TNA.
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Old 02-28-2012, 05:53 PM   #53
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box office sales alone define goat no more than in wrestling. you have to take everything into consideration.
Basically the gist of what I'm saying.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:00 PM   #54
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why shouldn't drawing power come into it? the majority of guys who make it to the highest spots/are the highest draws can do it all, especially in this day and age. Austin, Rock, Triple H, Taker, Angle, Bret, Shawn, these are all guys who will go down as some of the greatest of all time alongside Hogan, alongside Flair and drawing power doesn't necessarily come into it with all of those. You're talking like I'm saying that The Great Khali will go down as a better wrestler than Eddie Guerrero.

The Eugene equation is is pretty ridiculous. You don't base a wrestlers legacy off a single tiny fraction of his career so it doesn't really make any sense at all. I and many others could have told you at the time Eugene was wrestling Triple H on PPV that his gimmick had a limited shelf life and was the main reason he was over while there was every chance CM Punk could go on to do great things (which he has) I think it's safe to say John Cena isn't going to be running around India wearing a nurse's uniform in 10 years.

And show me where I specifically said "better draw=better wrestler", you jumped to that conclusion/assumed that was what I meant. Destor's post pretty much hit the nail on the head.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:06 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
wrestling is a business. The best "true wrestler" is the guy that pulls in the highest ratings. That's success in professional wrestling defined, somebody people will buy a ticket or tune in to see.
and before you quote this like a sneaky fascist, the basic sentiment rings true at the highest level/when comparing guys of that stature and talent. In their terms, Rock's drawing power and other characteristics place him above Jericho, who is the stronger worker.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:13 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
why shouldn't drawing power come into it? the majority of guys who make it to the highest spots/are the highest draws can do it all, especially in this day and age. Austin, Rock, Triple H, Taker, Angle, Bret, Shawn, these are all guys who will go down as some of the greatest of all time alongside Hogan, alongside Flair. You're talking like I'm saying that The Great Khali will go down as a better wrestler than Eddie Guerrero.
If Khali is a bigger draw than Eddie, isn't that EXACTLY what you're saying? The whole discussion is that you made it a point to say that the best wrestler IS the one who draws the most. That's it. How would that not be accurate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
The Eugene equation is is pretty ridiculous. You don't base a wrestlers legacy off a single tiny fraction of his career so it doesn't really make any sense at all. I and many others could have told you at the time Eugene was wrestling Triple H on PPV that his gimmick had a limited shelf life and was the main reason he was over while there was every chance CM Punk could go on to do great things (which he has) I think it's safe to say John Cena isn't going to be running around India wearing a nurse's uniform in 10 years.
I didn't mention anyone's legacy. In fact I specifically said that by your definition, it would mean that Punk BECAME a better wrestler. As in it was based on that time period. The better draw was the better wrestler. If you're gonna base it on who is the better draw, it's gonna fluctuate. There isn't any consistency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
And show me where I specifically said "better draw=better wrestler", you jumped to that conclusion/assumed that was what I meant. Destor's post pretty much hit the nail on the head.
"The best 'true wrestler' is the guy that pulls in the highest ratings."

Does that not say better draw = better wrestler? You're more than welcome to clarify but that seems pretty clear as day. lol
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:14 PM   #57
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Haha. Me and my sneaky fascism for quoting you exactly.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:16 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSL View Post
and before you quote this like a sneaky fascist, the basic sentiment rings true at the highest level/when comparing guys of that stature and talent. In their terms, Rock's drawing power and other characteristics place him above Jericho, who is the stronger worker.
If you're adding these qualifiers to make it not as simple as "the best wrestler is the one who draws more", then fine. My entire contention was with that point basically.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:18 PM   #59
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I think it also has to do that while Jericho's past 2 returns have started out slowly, they pick up a lot of interest once he actually gets involved in a feud people want such as him finally starting the Punk-Jericho feud. He did the same when he came back in the vest and short hair that didn't really pick up any steam until after the Orton feud.

The Rock's limited schedule does hurt and I'd assume the goosebumps along with the crowd reactions are affecting him a lot more than people are assuming considering he's been out of a ring for years.

Promo-wise, its not like the Rock has been just giving horrible promos since the earlier promos had him mainly on the attack while Cena was defending which benefited him a lot. Now the majority of the promos have Cena attacking with the Rock primarily responding which have helped Cena a lot. I'd also assume the WWE doesn't want The Rock to just destroy their top star's image if he just unleashed week after week considering they still rely on Cena as their long term money-making star.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:27 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
If Khali is a bigger draw than Eddie, isn't that EXACTLY what you're saying? The whole discussion is that you made it a point to say that the best wrestler IS the one who draws the most. That's it. How would that not be accurate?
Eddie was a bad example, I picked the worst headliner in recent times against a "beloved superworker" without really thinking of Eddie's time on top. The sentiment that you seem to think I mean "whoever is on top is better than everybody below" stands however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
I didn't mention anyone's legacy. In fact I specifically said that by your definition, it would mean that Punk BECAME a better wrestler. As in it was based on that time period. The better draw was the better wrestler. If you're gonna base it on who is the better draw, it's gonna fluctuate. There isn't any consistency.
This is the most ridiculously pedantic and off the mark thing you've posted in the entire thread given I was comparing The Rock and Chris Jericho.

Quote:
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"The best 'true wrestler' is the guy that pulls in the highest ratings."

Does that not say better draw = better wrestler? You're more than welcome to clarify but that seems pretty clear as day. lol
If you take that statement and remove all of the context, without reading anything else written in the thread or the post I was responding to and most importantly forget that the comparison involved was The Rock and Chris Jericho, two of the best and most successful professional wrestlers of all time, absolutely.

It's kind of like you're "playing dumb"/ignoring logic for arguments sake.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:32 PM   #61
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this is more ridiculous given that in my eyes, the greatest professional wrestler of all time is Shawn Michaels, who down to him being so fucking good bell to bell for such a long period of time whilst "ranking highly" on a bunch of other factors puts him over Hogan, Flair, Austin etc.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:45 PM   #62
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The quote is pretty cut and dry in context or out. Too cut and dry. That was my whole point. The Punk/Eugene analogy was just to show how wide of a range the theory can not work on.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:48 PM   #63
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I think HBK is the greatest wrestler of all time too. And drawing power just doesn't come into mind when making that decision. He did his job ridiculously well. Drawing power can usually come as a result of that but dissecting that clouds the issue of actual skill.
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Old 02-28-2012, 06:52 PM   #64
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this is more ridiculous given that in my eyes, the greatest professional wrestler of all time is Shawn Michaels, who down to him being so fucking good bell to bell for such a long period of time whilst "ranking highly" on a bunch of other factors puts him over Hogan, Flair, Austin etc.
and he didnt become an upper tier draw until 2004 and even then it was a low point in revenue (not as low as his first run at all but still low compairing HBK to guys like austin flair hogan dusty etc.)
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Old 02-28-2012, 07:06 PM   #65
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that good
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Old 02-28-2012, 07:08 PM   #66
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i was happy to see both rock and jericho return. and both of their returns were kind of disappointing.
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Old 02-28-2012, 07:19 PM   #67
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Jericho's return has been depressing mainly because of the hype. I get the feeling WWE starts a lot of major things with no end point in mind and it just peters out. Like Cena's hate embracing and the stuff with Ryder and Kane and Eve. I definitely feel like they started something assuming "we'll think of an amazing end-point later" and never did.

That's kinda how I feel about Jericho's return. These videos had seemingly so much "deep meaning" that apparently never actually meant much. His silent promos were cool but they definitely gave the sense that there was some awesome reason behind it and it ended with "Haha, trolled you just cuz" and that was it. The Punk feud with be awesome. The intrigue of the return and the aftermath kinda came and went with a whimper though.
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Old 02-29-2012, 03:10 AM   #68
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tom cruise is already a star albeit from another genre of entertainment. If he start out in wrestling then it would be a different story.
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:01 AM   #69
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Newer fans don't know who Jericho is..... most younger fans know Rock as the guy in the movies and the Legend in the SVR video games.....
Who are these newer fans? And why are they so retarded that they are unaware of popular wrestlers from the past? The one thing about wrestling fans, is we know and respect the superstars of the previous generations. When legends like Piper, or Dugan come out. Do they not get a huge pop? What about when there's a shout out to Brett Hart, or Randy Savage and they get a huge pop simply by the mere mention of their name. The mass majority of fans are aware. And for the few that aren't aware of past superstars, well they are the minority, so why even take them into consideration.
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Old 02-29-2012, 07:41 AM   #70
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His promo last night was incredible. I literally do not know anyone who doesn't like Chris Jericho.
Given he is playing a heel, he's not doing very well then.
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:15 AM   #71
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Cause Jericho is wrestling and the Rock is talking.
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:34 PM   #72
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wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy different now come on mannnn

Sting's silence was completely natural and perfectly flowed from the story

Jericho's silence was completely random and came from nothing
I was being sarcastic.
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Old 03-04-2012, 01:08 AM   #73
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I'd assume it is because Jericho goes into full work mode, whereas The Rock only does a few shows here and there. Personally, I think the WWE should be thankful to have both.
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Old 03-04-2012, 01:09 AM   #74
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And if Tom Cruise trained to become a professional wrestler, could work, promo and connect with audiences, the WWE would be absolutely nuts not to sign him.
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