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Old 04-06-2012, 09:57 PM   #641
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
What? John Cena was on fire when he got his first push leading into WrestleMania 21. Everyone loved him.
...and it lasted all of 8 months until people were shitting on him. John Cena was over, but he given that super-push because Brock and others had left and forced them to rush Cena, Orton, and Batista to the top and give them megapushes.
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Old 04-06-2012, 10:02 PM   #642
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I said nothing about how it ended up or how on fire he was 8 months later...

But he was easily the next big thing when he first got his push. His character becoming more "Hogan-esque" in it's mass pandering and the fact that WWE has been so shitty at long-term booking for so long screwed it up but you can't tell me he was simply "the best option". That's completely downplaying how over he was.
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Old 04-06-2012, 10:30 PM   #643
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Santino is just as fucking over right now, but he isn't ready to be thrust into that spot.
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Old 04-06-2012, 10:51 PM   #644
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There's a pretty big difference between Santino and John Cena circa 2004. lol
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:16 PM   #645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
There's a pretty big difference between Santino and John Cena circa 2004. lol
They both are cartoonish characters who are over huge, getting great crowd reactions, have gimmicky moves over, held midcard championships, and been teased in main event matches with success.
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:26 PM   #646
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? Umm... define "cartoonish". lol

You can't seriously tell me you don't see how John Cena could have been looked at as the next mega-star in wrestling and Santino isn't. Jesus. They're night and day. Cena was a serious contender who was actually having serious, good matches and feuds in the main event with guys like Lesnar and The Undertaker. Santino is a comedy character who was generally getting squashed and used as fodder and then had one week where he tasted a main event tease and then the next night was beaten in like one minute by the champion to re-establish his place.

Really, James Steele? Really?
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:29 PM   #647
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Oh, and I forgot to add in the fact that Santino got his tease just days before the PPV because someone got injured and they needed a replacement for a SIX PERSON MATCH.
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:29 PM   #648
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
? Umm... define "cartoonish". lol

You can't seriously tell me you don't see how John Cena could have been looked at as the next mega-star in wrestling and Santino isn't. Jesus. They're night and day. Cena was a serious contender who was actually having serious, good matches and feuds in the main event with guys like Lesnar and The Undertaker. Santino is a comedy character who was generally getting squashed and used as fodder and then had one week where he tasted a main event tease and then the next night was beaten in like one minute by the champion to re-establish his place.

Really, James Steele? Really?
The only difference is the level of push they are getting. They tied Cena to a rocket because Lesnar left a huge void in the main event and so they had to push him way too hard and way too fast. Which is why fans turned on him once he was working with established mega-stars like Angle, HHH, HBK, etc. Edge, JBL, and The Miz are the only heels to get Cena cheered. Cena was "ready" to be champion, but Cena wasn't ready to be given 1 1/2 year initial run with the belt (He held the title from WM21 to ECW One Night Stand except for a 3 week run from Edge).
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:35 PM   #649
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I... I don't know what to say at this point.
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:35 PM   #650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Oh, and I forgot to add in the fact that Santino got his tease just days before the PPV because someone got injured and they needed a replacement for a SIX PERSON MATCH.
AND HE WAS FUCKING OVER AND HAS BEEN OVER FOR A LONG FUCKING TIME! The Cobra and Cobra Sock is no more fucking stupid than the 5 Knuckle Shuffle and padlock necklace.
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:42 PM   #651
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He's a fucking comedy character! lol

Cena was booked as a legit tough guy. I guess if you wanna call his rapper persona "cartoonish" that's fine but holy fuck, you can't not see the difference. Santino is taylor made to come out and be comedy fodder. And he's good at it. Even while never getting legit big wins. He's over from it. Doesn't make sense to make him WORLD CHAMPION.

Cena was cocky and he joked but he took guys like Lesnar and Undertaker to the limit. Fuck the gimmick, he was actually booked to look on par with guys. What are you not getting?
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:45 PM   #652
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I'm saying that if they actually booked Santino to "take guys to the limit" while keeping his quirky attributes, he would be over like Cena was in 2004. People went fucking nuts when he almost won the Rumble and they went nuts on the build to Mania, and they loved him at WrestleMania.
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:48 PM   #653
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Well, this all sounds like praise of Santino more than knocking of Cena.

I personally think IF they started booking Santino with the ability to legitimately wrestle, he'd be huge so if you're trying to use him as an example to knock Cena's push, you're talking to the wrong person. lol
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:57 PM   #654
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Anyway, what the original point of this was 72 hours ago was that Brock Lesnar leaving forced WWE to push Cena, Orton, and Batista too soon. Orton showed just how ill-prepared he was and they pulled the plug after a month. Cena and Batista went on fucking ungodly title runs that they couldn't sustain because they were ready for title runs and main event spots, but not as "faces of the company" which is why once they got out of their initial feuds and went on to face other stars, Cena especially, they got exposed. Cena began getting shit on by the fans when he feuded with Jericho, and it all started snowballing big time once he faced Angle and then Triple H all the way through today. Batista was able to be protected more since his push was more organic with the feud with Triple H and getting injured and keeping him off TV for awhile.
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:01 AM   #655
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Cena was a victim of bland booking/the change of character.

Shitty booking/character development can force the best to get bland and booed quickly. See: The Rock

And I'm not even just talking about Rocky Maivia. How many times as face Rock did the crowd go Cena on him?
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:04 AM   #656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Cena was a victim of bland booking/the change of character.

Shitty booking/character development can force the best to get bland and booed quickly. See: The Rock

And I'm not even just talking about Rocky Maivia. How many times as face Rock did the crowd go Cena on him?
Occasionally, but he rolled with the punches and evolved. (Ex: "Hollywood Rock" circa 03) Cena has enough stroke to say "Let's try this."
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:13 AM   #657
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Well, yeah. I don't think anyone would blame Rock though. He was booked as a face who talked shit a lot and got beat a lot and it got bland. Cena hasn't and won't turn heel anytime soon. His character changed though and the booking of his feuds were terribly formulaic for that span when the crowd turned on him. That's why I'm saying booking is such a huge part of it. With the right booking, you can easily push a talented guy to the world title in a short amount of time and keep him over. It just takes consistency.
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:16 AM   #658
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Austin's shit was formulaic, and you can't tell me the monster trucks and beer baths kept him "fresh".

Austin wins title --> Austin pisses off Vince --> Vince stacks the deck --> Austin overcomes somehow --> Austin does something ridiculous with heavy machinery to piss off/embarrass Vince --> Vince finally screws Austin --> Austin finds loophole to get back in title hunt --> Austin wins title -->

Am I wrong? The biggest difference is Austin's initial run on top was only 2-3 years (Late 97 through Survivor Series 99) and not fucking 7 like Cena.
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:26 AM   #659
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Austin was ushering in something completely new. The stuff with McMahon was something people had never seen before. It's arguably the greatest rivalry in wrestling history...
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:32 AM   #660
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I mean, if you're gonna call stuff formulaic in retrospect, Hogan's feuds were pretty damn formulaic. At the time though, holy shit.
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Old 04-07-2012, 01:25 AM   #661
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They made the formula work, and Cena hasn't be able to do that. Hence why he comes off like a lesser star than those guys no matter how hard they push him. He is no doubt a huge star, but I don't think anyone but the kiddos look at him as on the same level as Hogan, Rock, Austin, etc.
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Old 04-07-2012, 03:40 AM   #662
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can we import that Miami crowd to every Raw from now on?
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:41 PM   #663
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
They made the formula work, and Cena hasn't be able to do that. Hence why he comes off like a lesser star than those guys no matter how hard they push him. He is no doubt a huge star, but I don't think anyone but the kiddos look at him as on the same level as Hogan, Rock, Austin, etc.
This "Cena hasn't been able to do that" thing is what I have the problem with.

A major part of Austin was the character and the writing aside from the man himself.

A major part of Cena is/was the character and the writing aside from the man himself.

For Austin it was amazing and cutting edge. For Cena it was bland and boring.

And thus, the crowd reactions followed. The problem wasn't "Cena wasn't ready." He was. He was getting the reactions. He was there. If you continue to book him well, he stays over. The problem was the writers didn't know how to book wrestling in a way interesting enough to please people other than little kids who could care less about intriguing storylines and women who think "OMG JOHN CENA IS SOOOO HAWT!" He went from the character people were so much behind in the JBL feud to becoming Hogan and a main event character that older people had seen before with no creativity behind it. I don't think Cena ever really sucked with what he was given to do. He was given shit to do though.
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