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Old 12-13-2012, 02:39 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanso View Post
Wrestling is cyclical.
And this is the mentality that's had us "due for a boom" since 2002.

Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Yeah. Fuck writing ability. Turn heel, profit!
Hey, we're due for good writing any day now. Wrestling is cyclical, after all.

But seriously, easy answers. Wrestlers are not known for progressive thinking. "Turn him heel" is common because it's traditional logic. The Cena model is new and scary and must be destroyed.

Just like a 3 hour Raw (because it's not the wrestling, it's the time slot), Friday Night Smackdown, getting the "F" out, etc.

And dammit Attitude Era, giddawf mah lern!
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:43 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
And this is the mentality that's had us "due for a boom" since 2002.



Hey, we're due for good writing any day now. Wrestling is cyclical, after all.

But seriously, easy answers. Wrestlers are not known for progressive thinking. "Turn him heel" is common because it's traditional logic. The Cena model is new and scary and must be destroyed.

Just like a 3 hour Raw (because it's not the wrestling, it's the time slot), Friday Night Smackdown, getting the "F" out, etc.

And dammit Attitude Era, giddawf mah lern!
Yeah, because their stubborn refusal to adapt and try something different isnt the real problem here.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:43 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Different time period. Different demographic. And when Hogan turned there were faces that were already huge. They didn't turn him and then try to get someone to "fill his spot". There were already guys at that level.
To be honest, I don't think Ryback is all that far off from that level. Kids have take a liking to him.

Here is what I would do anyways:

-Have Cena turn heel against The Rock at Wrestlemania. (Cena goes over)
-Cena can have another match with The Rock at Summerslam perhaps (rubber match).

Cena could also get into brief feuds with past legends such as Triple H and Undertaker..........established faces. While this is happening, you can continue to build up guys like Ryback, Sheamus, The Miz, and Randy Orton.

Think back to 2001:

When Austin had his heel run, guys like Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit weren't bona-fide main-event guys yet.......atleast to the extent that guys like The Rock, HHH, and Undertaker were. However - they still feuded with Austin and got over big time.

Perhaps heel Cena could have that same effect on guys like Sheamus and Ryback. Orton is already at that level.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:45 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanso View Post
The Allure of a Cena Heel turn isnt Merchandise sales, it is ratings and buyrates.
And that's why WWE would be stupid to go for it.

This might be a nice short-term boost, but they were losing fans before Cena and would have lost more anyway. They opted to turn to a different market and model for sustainability. The result? A sinking ship became a major multimedia franchise.

If you like wrestling being on TV, this is a good chunk of the reason. People blame Cena or Linda's political campaign, but should probably thank God that wrestling is even on the air right now, because this approach to business made it happen.

If you like the product at all, this approach probably saved it. If you don't like the current product, maybe it's time to move on. It's a show with kids as the primary market. Imagine if Pintint whined that My Little Pony didn't have enough attitude or whatever. He'd look like a moron for bitching about a children's show not catering to him.

And so does the wrestling fanbase.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:46 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanso View Post
Yeah, because their stubborn refusal to adapt and try something different isnt the real problem here.
Your stubborn adherence to specific concepts (because ponies, I suspect), largely is at issue here.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:48 PM   #46
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And guys,

Lets consider this:

-If Austin turned heel after 4 years (1997-2001), and if The Rock turned heel after 4 years (1999-2003), and if Hogan eventually turned heel (1980's-1996)............then don't you think that a guy like John Cena, who isn't anywhere near the face of the aforementioned, should turn heel at some point as well? (2004-2012).
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:49 PM   #47
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Quote:
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Your stubborn adherence to specific concepts (because ponies, I suspect), largely is at issue here.
Vintage 30 Year Old Faggot in his Moms Basement
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:50 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
And that's why WWE would be stupid to go for it.

This might be a nice short-term boost, but they were losing fans before Cena and would have lost more anyway. They opted to turn to a different market and model for sustainability. The result? A sinking ship became a major multimedia franchise.

If you like wrestling being on TV, this is a good chunk of the reason. People blame Cena or Linda's political campaign, but should probably thank God that wrestling is even on the air right now, because this approach to business made it happen.

If you like the product at all, this approach probably saved it. If you don't like the current product, maybe it's time to move on. It's a show with kids as the primary market. Imagine if Pintint whined that My Little Pony didn't have enough attitude or whatever. He'd look like a moron for bitching about a children's show not catering to him.

And so does the wrestling fanbase.
Yes, because the WWE is solely made for Children. This analogy is completely illogical.

They took their product, and made it kid FRIENDLY, not completely marketed at children.

And this "sustainability" is really working well, with all time low ratings.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:51 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
And guys,

Lets consider this:

-If Austin turned heel after 4 years (1997-2001), and if The Rock turned heel after 4 years (1999-2003), and if Hogan eventually turned heel (1980's-1996)............then don't you think that a guy like John Cena, who isn't anywhere near the face of the aforementioned, should turn heel at some point as well? (2004-2012).
Those heels turns werent successful or well thought out. They were easy solutions. No way they worked.

/Kane Knight-WWF Fan
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:55 PM   #50
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For those worried about Cena turning heel and potentially ailientaing the target demographic (kids) and/or losing merchandising revenue..........I get that. I understand that. However.....

1) Heels can also sell major mechandise....especially in this era. Pretty sure DX, Evolution, Legacy, Hollywood Rock, heel Austin, and the nWo version of Hogan had no problem selling massive merchandise (even comparable to the 'face' versions of themselves).

2) Again - Hogan.....when he turned heel. nWo merchandise. Hypothethetically, lets say Cena turned heel and became a "Heyman guy" or the new leader of The Shield. I'm pretty sure something like that would sell (both short term and long term).

3) it forces the WWE to create new franchise faces......and with Cena on the heel side, it becomes easier for the fans to embrace a new hero.....and new merch revenue from said new guy.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:02 PM   #51
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CM punk is their top heel and is selling merchandise left and right.

for those who say turning Cena heel without other top names doesnt work, well if they keep the status quo they wont be able to make new faces. Its a catch 22.

They can keep riding Cena as is for another few years and they will find themselves without a star to move on to next.

Cena has ALOT of miles on him. ALOT. He has been grinding as the face of the company for 8 plus years. Working Raw and Smackdown and pressers and TV making moves kissing babies etc.

Hes isnt going to be able to do this much longer.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:03 PM   #52
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Yeah but to become booed, Cena would need to do something like murder 8 children...
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:05 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
To be honest, I don't think Ryback is all that far off from that level. Kids have take a liking to him.
I'm as big of a Ryback supporter as you're gonna find. If they keep booking him the way they are (Very carefully, not over-exposing him on Raw, etc.) then they could finally have the guy they've been looking for. They better be sure though before they think about turning their money guy.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:05 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pintint View Post
Yeah but to become booed, Cena would need to do something like murder 8 children...
Not really.

Have him attack the Rock. Have him say mean things. Have him do jerk things. He will turn quick.

While punk was on a much lower level, he was able to effectively turn in a week.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:06 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
I'm as big of a Ryback supporter as you're gonna find. If they keep booking him the way they are (Very carefully, not over-exposing him on Raw, etc.) then they could finally have the guy they've been looking for. They better be sure though before they think about turning their money guy.
I am not at all a Ryback fan or supporter. But if they turned Cena tomorrow and built to a Ryback Cena match at mania, and did a slow burn, even I could see Ryback being a star afterwards.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:13 PM   #56
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Quote:
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Yeah but to become booed, Cena would need to do something like murder 8 children...
Negatory.

All he has to do, is tell the fans to shut up during a match with The Rock.

You know what would be genius?

If the wwe could somehow turn Cena heel, but still have him be loved by kids somehow.

Think about it. Right now - Cena is technically a face, but most adults can't stand the guy's current character......whereas kids love him.

What if the WWE were somehow able to keep that (I.e. kids loving him but adults hating him), but have Cena technically be a heel?

Remember back in 1997 when Bret Hart was loved in Canada but was heel in the States? Maybe the WWE can find a way to do that?

Maybe after Wrestlemania, after Cena defeats The Rock in a hypothetical match, have Cena come out and thank his fans...........the kids. During said promo however, Cena says that as much as he loves and appreciates the kids for their constant support, he's sick and tired of everyone else hating on him.......and blindly cheering on Dwayne. Cena then says he's had enough. He still loves the kids as they've stuck with him through thick and thin, but everyone else can go 'F' themselves.

With the above scenario, perhaps it would make Cena and even more polarizing character. Merch sales stay up since kids still would love him, and it would also create more of a rivalry/buzz amongst the kids/adults in the arenas.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:20 PM   #57
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Quote:
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No he wasnt. He wasnt even the top face, and it was during WCWs crap days. He wasnt drawing, he had little to no crossover appeal, and you are jsut being selective.

Sting in 1995/early 1996 was a bigger name in wrestling but not a "Franchise Face". He was on the level with a guy like Orton. Is Orton a franchise face?

You are being selective.
Who the fuck was the top face if it wasn't Sting??? lol How old are you? Do you remember WCW during that time? He WAS WCW. lol How the fuck am I being selective?! I'd say shifting things to help your point about Cena is being pretty blatantly selective.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:26 PM   #58
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He was the top face in the company before Hogan got there and you're saying they didn't have a top guy when they turned Hogan heel? He WAS without Hogan. Clearly giving Sting a mega-heel did not put them in a similar situation to if Cena turned heel now.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:29 PM   #59
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Obviously you cant even understand your own posts. Yes, I watched WCW. I watched Sting in JCP.

You call him a TOP FACE then in prior posts he is their "FRANCHISE FACE". Which he wasnt, until he went to the crow gimmick.

Make up your mind.

I am not saying he isnt a TOP FACE. Im saying he wasnt THE MAN. Like I said Earlier, Sting prior to the NWO feud was more akin to Randy Orton than John Cena.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:30 PM   #60
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Being a TOP FACE is no indication of success. Lex Luger was also a TOP FACE in WCW and he was never at a level to build around, and his best success came opposite Hogan who elevated him.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:31 PM   #61
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He was the top face in the company before Hogan got there and you're saying they didn't have a top guy when they turned Hogan heel? He WAS without Hogan. Clearly giving Sting a mega-heel did not put them in a similar situation to if Cena turned heel now.
He was a top face before Hogan, and during Hogans arrival he became an afterthought and was not the focus of the company for two years. He was no more THE GUY than Luger or Savage and they all fell beneath Hulk.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:32 PM   #62
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You call him a TOP FACE then in prior posts he is their "FRANCHISE FACE". Which he wasnt, until he went to the crow gimmick.

Make up your mind.
lol. Jesus Christ. He was both. They aren't mutually exclusive.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:32 PM   #63
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Turning Cena Heel will get other faces to the next level. He could make Sheamus a star.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:33 PM   #64
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lol. Jesus Christ. He was both. They aren't mutually exclusive.
No shit sherlock. And Im saying he wasnt one of them.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:35 PM   #65
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He was a top face before Hogan, and during Hogans arrival he became an afterthought and was not the focus of the company for two years. He was no more THE GUY than Luger or Savage and they all fell beneath Hulk.
If there was someone who could have claimed to be the top face in the company for years before Cena came along then that would be a clear reason why turning Cena heel would be fine. As you would have a guy who had proven that he could take over that role.

There isn't. So again, your point that Hogan's turn would be comparable to Cena's turn because there wasn't a guy who could take over that spot and sell merchandise then either doesn't work...
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:37 PM   #66
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Turning Cena Heel will get other faces to the next level. He could make Sheamus a star.
He could. Assuming they BOOKED IT PROPERLY. And even then, it would take a while to even things out financially.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:39 PM   #67
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You know how else they could make more money? Not turning Cena heel and booking him and the guys he faces and their storylines interesting enough to get adults into his character while not alienating the kids.

But that's not as easy as "HEEL TURN! PROBLEM SOLVED!"
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:42 PM   #68
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And it's not just merchandise that would suffer. A guy like Ryback would need some time to develop before he could replace what Cena does as far as PR with Make-a-Wish and interviews and the like.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:59 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
If there was someone who could have claimed to be the top face in the company for years before Cena came along then that would be a clear reason why turning Cena heel would be fine. As you would have a guy who had proven that he could take over that role.

There isn't. So again, your point that Hogan's turn would be comparable to Cena's turn because there wasn't a guy who could take over that spot and sell merchandise then either doesn't work...
Cena has been the top face for 8+ years. There is no one on the roster from before him, so it is apples and oranges on that front. You have to bank on the 2nd tier of Faces, which is my point in comparison.
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:02 PM   #70
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Quote:
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You know how else they could make more money? Not turning Cena heel and booking him and the guys he faces and their storylines interesting enough to get adults into his character while not alienating the kids.

But that's not as easy as "HEEL TURN! PROBLEM SOLVED!"
Oh yeah, because "OH JUST DO THINGS BETTER" is a much different stance.

8 years of bland character. How does that get booked into something better without a drastic move like a heel turn?

Know what that would take? To draw people BACK to Cena? A Top Heel that could make even the IWC cheer cena or want him to go over. What Heel is doing that?

I guess you could say damned if you do, damned if you dont. But the fact is that as much as I hate it, Cena is the key to the Company turning it around. And I just do see him bringing up ratings wuality by staying as a face and somehow being "different".
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:03 PM   #71
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People got sick of Hogan. They tuned him out and turned him off. Cena has reached that same spot.
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:32 PM   #72
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How long was Hogan a face before he went heel? Serious question.


The different with Hogan and Cena is that the children were turning into or were already teenages when Hogan made his turn. This allowed his target audience to still buy into the character he was going for. It also allowed his t-shirts and whatever else the NWO and Hollywood Hogan sold to sell with a high demand.
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Old 12-13-2012, 04:34 PM   #73
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Quote:
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How long was Hogan a face before he went heel? Serious question.


The different with Hogan and Cena is that the children were turning into or were already teenages when Hogan made his turn. This allowed his target audience to still buy into the character he was going for. It also allowed his t-shirts and whatever else the NWO and Hollywood Hogan sold to sell with a high demand.
Hogan wqas a face for about 12 years. Across two companies, with several periods of extended absence.

4 PPVs a year and very little television time compared to today.

And to be fair, around 8 years, in 1992 is when he started to really waver in fan support.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:08 PM   #74
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Quote:
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8 years of bland character. How does that get booked into something better without a drastic move like a heel turn?
Operative part should be "drastic move", and not specifically the heel turn itself, which is what the IWC obsesses over.

Part of why everyone is dogging him is the over-the-top, overcoming all odds, SuperCena who no-sells floor finishers from half the Nexus to jump up and beat a 10 count at 9. Cena was getting better with his stuff with Punk. The happy-go-lucky jokester was making way for him having to buckle down and be serious and intense and step up against a guy who could actually beat him and he couldn't afford to look past. Could have benefited from a change in ring attire and music about then, and still remained face, and it would have been a breath of fresh air. Instead, after that feud was over, he's back to the same old thing he was before feuding with Punk.

A heel turn is "a" way to go, but doesn't neccessarily have to be "the" way. They can still keep their baby-kissing cash cow, just tweak him a bit.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:52 PM   #75
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Vintage 30 Year Old Faggot in his Moms Basement
Look, if you have no actual logical argument, just say so.

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Yes, because the WWE is solely made for Children. This analogy is completely illogical.

They took their product, and made it kid FRIENDLY, not completely marketed at children.

And this "sustainability" is really working well, with all time low ratings.
You're getting really hung up on the details here. It's not just kid friendly, kids are the primary market focus right now. That's not actually all that different from any other children's show. Throwing in words like "solely" is just an artificial way to distinguish why you whining about your favourite show aimed at kids is okay, but Pintint whining about his would still be stupid.

Also, do you really want to talk about doing well? Have you looked at their financial reports? Do you think ratings are really an in-depth monitor of WWE's empire?

Come on, now.

Quote:
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You know how else they could make more money? Not turning Cena heel and booking him and the guys he faces and their storylines interesting enough to get adults into his character while not alienating the kids.

But that's not as easy as "HEEL TURN! PROBLEM SOLVED!"
The best thing is, Hanso has already qualified that good writing is necessary for this to work, when the problem in the first place has been a lack of good writing.

So basically, the key to answering the problem is writing, and the heel turn is completely superfluous, but TURN HIM HEEL anyway.

And I mean, heel turns are usually done to "freshen up" a character. Cena's problem was never really that he was stale so much as hes been poorly written. Frequently.

So it's not only an easy answer, it's an easy answer to the wrong problem.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:32 PM   #76
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Getting back on topic.......
Getting back on topic.......

Do you guys like the idea of stacking RAW with the highest drawing wrestlers in the company ( and having an official draft every 14-18 months or so while strictly adhering to an actual roster split......like they did a few years ago). By doing this....

1) The WWE has atleast one show that is its "best possible show" and can possibly attract new fans.

2) Smackdown can take these characters that are bland and re-invent them. Similar to what the WWE were forced to do back in 1996.
Last edited by Heyman; 12-13-2012 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 12-14-2012, 12:30 AM   #77
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Nope. RAW stacks way too much as it is. If anything, they should stack Smackdown.

They should go back to the brand split and actually do what it was supposed to do. They shouldn't worry so much about which show is the "A" show or "B" show. That's part of what the problem is. They go all "OH, THIS GUY IS REALLY GETTING HUGE ON SMACKDOWN... WE NEED HIM ON RAW!!!!" Keep his ass on SD. Make people watch that show. Use the time that this guy would be taking up on RAW and use it for someone else being unused.
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Old 12-14-2012, 12:51 AM   #78
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WOW, that's some pretty intense discussion! Going back to Heyman's idea to stack RAW over Smackdown!, I feel that morale would decline among those drafted to Smackdown! because there would no longer be the synergy of the A-Listers to boost the ratings or to help less popular talent get over. Smackdown! would become like NXT. Maybe WWE could stack RAW as an experiment and then reshuffle the rosters again if ratings do not increase by more than the Smackdown! ratings decrease.
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Old 12-14-2012, 01:03 AM   #79
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Cena's fans are getting older every day. He's going to have to do something or they will lose interest. He might have to turn heel if his fans start going into the ages where they like the heels better than the faces.

At what age did you all switch from liking the heels more than the faces? I can't remember when exactly it was for me. Sort of think it might have been Owen Hart and Mr. Bob Backlund.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:20 AM   #80
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Honestly Heyman, the brand split thing has run its course i believe. I for one could care less about who gets drafted from Raw to Smackdown and Smackdown to RAW anymore. If anything half of the guys end up on both shows each week.

Honestly Raw should go back to 2 hours, they need to honestly just end the brand split, unify the WHC and WWE Title again and make one World Champion and bring back like one more mid-card title and focus on building its mid card guys to start filling the main event roles they are eventually going to have to overtake.
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