11-05-2014, 07:24 PM | #401 |
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I think there's really deep, fundamental problems with the way you're looking at the relationship between creators, works and audience. I'm clocking out here, but that point is an empasse. I have to say it really doesn't make sense, especially when we are talking about commercially released, mass produced works. You're also inappropriately deifying creators when they are products of a culture that they are born of and shape themselves. Games are not Platonic Forms that are drawn out, they are every bit as subjective as these reviews. Of course unintended consequences are real and valid. Why on earth would you engage with an audience otherwise? You are practically saying that no one is allowed to disagree with an artists opinion. There's nothing magical about them.
Released games enter the culture. They are part of the culture, and therefore subject to it. They do this willingly. They are inviting our feelings and opinions. You don't get to cherry pick the good reactions and drop the bad. |
11-05-2014, 08:28 PM | #402 | |
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Similarly, if a reviewer or critic wants to highlight problematic issues in story-telling or imagery in games, that is fair game. That is what critique is about. The artist's intent is utterly irrelevant, to be honest, and, indeed, this is where games designers need to realise that part of having a wider audience is acknowledging that people will have problems with the things you do. It's not really for you to say how a reviewer or critic interprets these things. You can either argue with them or ignore it. The point is that society informs art and art informs society. If games want to be seen as something enjoyed by people other than teenage boys in their dark bedrooms then with that comes different priorities in story-telling and imagery for different audiences. Furthermore, this encourages innovation in story-telling, which is important as games attempt to be more about an encompassing experience. Games are also yet another media frontier in challenging sociological archetypes, because young and impressionable people play them. There is, again, nothing wrong with pointing this out. As an adult male who has played games all his life, I don't want to be embarrassed by the hobby. |
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11-05-2014, 08:55 PM | #403 |
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An issue I have with what you're saying is identifying something as "problematic" versus saying you just don't like it.
I mean, in one breath you vilify sexuality in games as juvenile while also saying games need to grow up as an art form. I suspect you'll never see certain subjects in games as legit regardless of how far it can evolve as an art form. But you do say that this is a business, which is funny. As a capitalistic industry, games will want to appeal to either a mass populace or at least the hardcore fanbase who will recoup costs of production. Money talks, and money says people care about games as they are. These things are either art or toys when you deem fit. They are business products or photographs of society's condition when you see fit. But back to point; I stress that that not all opinions in reviews are equal, only that one as a right to one. There's a reason you're better pressed to read another game review by me over some random. I'm sure random would find things to critique on, too, but they wouldn't be the things a potential consumer would wanna hear about a game. I've spoken about this with my Camero scenario. So again, somebody could well critique any facet of a game. I would never say otherwise. But while everyone an opinion, they are not all equal. Certain opinion are more informed than others with the industry/game/genre in context. |
11-05-2014, 09:02 PM | #404 | |
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11-05-2014, 09:04 PM | #405 | ||
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11-05-2014, 09:10 PM | #406 |
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I didn't vilify the concept of sexuality in games as juvenile, I said "pretty much all attempts" have been juvenile, which is true. This completely fits in with the need for games designers to keep in mind a wider audience, not a teenage boy, if the medium is to mature.
Entertainment can be both mass-market and frivolous or it can be serious and life-defining. There's no contradiction in that. Anyone who watches films understands there are different types of film that be enjoyed equally as much in different ways. Indeed, the games I have enjoyed most recently have been the Souls games that have thrown all narrative and wider character motivation out the window and went for simple objective-chasing wrapped around a superb combat mechanic and a beautifully realised world, whereas I've found attempts like GTA V and Skyrim to be more encompassing to be off-putting and got bored of Bioshock Infinite before finishing it. But this is speaking at cross-purposes. People can make games for whatever reason they want and their target audience can enjoy them for whatever reason they want. This does not preclude the legitimate critique of what a critic may consider problematic imagery or themes in games. This drives development and innovation. And you're also wrong, because I do want to hear about these things. I want to hear about the gameplay, the game mechanics, the sound, the graphics, the level design etc. and I want to hear if there's off-putting themes in the game. I basically lost interest in single player GTA V after the torture scene, after tolerating the appalling yoga and strip-club scenes, because it was so crass and dull-witted. A horrific misstep from a game that has traditionally been very strong on satire. Last edited by El Capitano Gatisto; 11-05-2014 at 09:34 PM. |
11-05-2014, 09:16 PM | #407 | ||
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Film critics regularly excoriate films like The Human Centipede and other torture porn films for being exploitative and crass, as well as just bad films. Do you have a problem with this? |
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11-05-2014, 09:48 PM | #408 |
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O/T I hate how many people "liked" Human Centipede just to be shocking.
If we're going to compare video game reviewers to movie reviewers though, can we at least remember that Bikini Car Wash 3 didn't get reviewed by serious critics? Some films/games make the claim that they're something more than popcorn flicks or button-mashers and should be treated with the same level of seriousness as the fashion in which they are created. Sonic and Mario games are a lot like harmlessly dumb CGI family films, Rockstar Games attempt to be a bit of everything and are usually called out on the juvenile aspects. Obviously the comparison could go on for a bit, but I'll stop there. My only problem is when a "reviewer" has no interest in the medium and instead wants to force artists and schlock-writers/directors/game creators to stop making things that don't fit into their narrowly defined list of acceptable art. When a reviewer treats a dumb action film like it's cultural kryptonite because it doesn't attempt to display the confusion and pain of people with gender identity issues we can safely say that person is missing the point. There are plenty of truly vile things out there to complain about though. |
11-05-2014, 09:56 PM | #409 |
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Who is forcing anyone to stop making anything?
A film also shouldn't get free rein to go uncriticised just because it is "supposed" to be stupid. |
11-05-2014, 10:27 PM | #410 | |||
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I'm gonna guess we won't meet halfway here. Quote:
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11-05-2014, 10:31 PM | #411 | |
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When you say something is "problematic" and go out of your way to remind us that "young and impressionable" kids are playing these games, where else is that road supposed to lead but regulation of creative freedom?
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11-05-2014, 10:33 PM | #412 | |
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Which is all very interesting and I like to hear people talk about it. If a reviewer feels subjects like that are important then they should talk about it. The artistic value of the work they talk about is largely irrelevant if people watch it. |
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11-05-2014, 10:35 PM | #413 |
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My approach to this is any company can make any game for anybody, and critics can have a ball after the fact.
Your viewpoint is art beholden to critics, where artists must adhere to creator whims. That is the difference between us. Were I king of world who can allow or veto anything ever; creative freedom lives. Including garbage like Human Centipede and Hatred. You as king of the world, based on what you wrote here and in other threads, almost certainly sees the end of creative freedom. |
11-05-2014, 10:35 PM | #414 | |
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Who decides what is valid or not? Ultimately that's a personal decision. |
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11-05-2014, 10:39 PM | #415 | |
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Is the other thread you are talking about the anime child porn one? |
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11-05-2014, 10:42 PM | #416 | |||
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My nephew was recently concluded to have autism. We've never had an autistic family member, and I admit a great many things I didn't think seriously about came front and center. How hard is education going to be, how will he interact with other kids, where is he on the spectrum, etc. If you think the mentally ill/handicapped can be better served in media, point me to the project and I'm yours - but I still don't agree that we should put any pressure on creators to do anything other what they wanna do. Quote:
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11-05-2014, 10:48 PM | #417 | |||
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Please read my Camero review scenario again where I explain more about the idea of legit, informed opinions vs people who miss the point. Quote:
Were you king of the earth, able to pass or deny anything; does GTA5 as it is right now exist? Does Dead or Alive 5 exist? Does Mortal Kombat exist? Quote:
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11-05-2014, 10:51 PM | #418 | |
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There is nothing wrong with highlighting the effect of art and media on society so that artists understand the potential consequences of their work. In this instance, for example, does your piece possibly further stigmatise the mentally ill? This is how criticism works, has always worked. It has never been just about saying "this is good, 8/10". Which is to say that games should be ready for that kind of criticism if the medium is to develop. This is also how the free market/capitalism works. An amateur with no talent trying to make an issue piece is less helpful than informed criticism suggest artists consider the consequences of their work for people who may identify or be identified with the characters there-in. No one is forcing them to even listen, indeed, most don't unless the market they're marginalising is large enough to dent profits. It's the same point said 3 different ways now. If people consume your work then you are influencing them, be it positively or negatively, so it still matters what you say with that work. |
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11-05-2014, 11:04 PM | #419 | ||
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However, Anita Sarkeesian to name one, is only a public persona now because of the response to her criticisms. So therefore what she says has been made valid by the debate that has ensued. Quote:
Trying to paint me as a prude is wide of the mark, rather than just someone who is dismayed by artistic laziness and crassness. In regards to the other thread, that's a side issue. Since I've had to do a bit of work on child protection and recognising/preventing abuse, I'm coming to it from that angle. What I will say is that The Rogerer made the best point in that thread, in that the prosecutors and police involved have to look at all child porn and categorise it that they bring to court for any case, so it is not a case of prudes not understanding something. They have to sit through all that shit and go home to their families afterwards. If they brought that case and achieved a conviction, I would tend to believe they had a reason to do so because what they had seen demonstrated a possible threat to the public. |
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11-05-2014, 11:10 PM | #420 |
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An artist is not responsible for how people will take his work. That's not what he signed up for, and it's his freedom to opt in and consider what he wants to be absorbed by his potential audience.
Just now the JL8 thread got updated with something I think kids would be served well seeing. Yale knows his artwork and narrative tone could attract younger fans. He opts to plant a very important message concerning missing children, even under great fan service for us oldies. That was his decision and I support it. And then there's works that kids eat up that don't even bother with subtle PSAs. That's fine, too. These people are not your parents, counselors, teachers, or whatever else you think artists suddenly become because they're work is out there. |
11-05-2014, 11:15 PM | #421 |
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Actually they are responsible, they design it to influence people. But otherwise I'm not sure where I argued that anyone has any obligation to be influenced in turn by the response to their work?
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11-05-2014, 11:22 PM | #422 |
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Here's another mental health example for you: it has been noted from studies that high profile reporting of suicide in the media causes a spike in suicides in the area in which it has been reported. Suicides are contagious in the media. Furthermore, media describing or depicting suicide techniques influences attempts in reality. This is why some newspapers have entered an agreement not to report suicide details. People are more psychologically malleable than any of us like to believe.
I'm not arguing the media is killing people. What I am arguing is that it is worth talking about the influence of art and media on society. Whether artists wish to let this influence their work or not depends on how much they value criticism, how much they value financial gain or how much they value their own artistic vision. |
11-05-2014, 11:44 PM | #423 | ||||
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I wonder if you're consistent about this in other areas. "Backlash dignifies uninformed opinions." Quote:
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11-05-2014, 11:47 PM | #424 | |||
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11-05-2014, 11:51 PM | #425 | |||
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The case discussed in that thread took place in England so it's not your justice system. |
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11-05-2014, 11:54 PM | #426 |
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Yes. Of course. That is the point. To make people laugh/cry/think.
Some may feel it is and change their decisions based on it. That is their prerogative. Stanley Kubrick banned A Clockwork Orange himself because some youths in England kicked a tramp to death while singing Singin' in the Rain. Others may not be aware of the influence of art/media on behaviour. How they choose to work with that knowledge is up to them. Art is not so sacred that people cannot value things above an artist's conscience. Where did I say or even imply they were mutually exclusive? |
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Thoughts on plot and dialogue is perfectly fine, as they are elements the writer is giving unto you. What's I've been arguing is how certain art should be judged on the merits it sets out for, not what the reviewer posits onto it. Consider that you've been arguing for a freedom of critique beyond freedom the art they're reviewing. Quote:
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11-06-2014, 12:35 AM | #428 |
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11-06-2014, 04:24 AM | #429 |
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Let's not forget that a lot of the context of this is being used springboard to lash out at 'SJW's, criticise harrassment and other things that piss people off. If you want to act that way, knock yourself out, but it's annoying when the manifesto has fatal problems.
Everyone is invited to criticise the medium. The notion that developers and publishers shouldn't be subject to things they don't intend is a show of bias, which is only a problem when you're calling against bias. When I myself know how childish, materialistic and mercanary the games industry is, it isn't hard to connect the dots and see where these ideas are coming from. Gamers are having a hard time coming out of the treehouse, but it's better out there. You cannot hide behind your intent in this world. Imagine saying that about any other medium. Politics would be a wonderfully rosy place. If I produce a game, and someone makes a judgement on what I presented, I would be a coward or an idiot to go "Actually, that's not fair, I didn't mean to do that, I'm special". Stories don't come from heaven, they bounce out of the collective culture. Especially when you're producing something where your express intent is mass appeal. You can't claim the precious artist defence when they are stacking them high and selling them low. They're stepping into the slings and arrows. Come to think of it, I did produce a game at university where I was asked to change the subject matter because it was insensitive. It seems funny at the time because we were young and stupid, but it was clear that it wasn't the best idea. So we changed it. Oh, my artistic sprit died that day! Surely the angels will weep as the oppresive world kills things that are too beautiful to exist. Where was our freedom of speech? No, me, the artist, AN artist, was just being a stupid prick. |
11-07-2014, 11:08 AM | #430 |
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Games are games. It's not the artist's/creator's fault that you see something that isn't there. It might not even be your fault.
I remember in high-school we used to do those annoying essays about the meaning of works of literature. As long as we could make a persuasive case about what we thought the author MEANT, then we passed. It's bull-shit, basically and more so than a critique where you explain why you don't like it, it's purposely deluding yourself into thinking that you can change the meaning of something through analytic interpretation. Maybe, the character went fishing because he liked to fish. Maybe it isn't a comment on how all men are abusive monsters attempting to lure in innocent women to gut and devour. SJWs see meaning where there is none and ignore the obvious when it doesn't fit their preconceived notions of how the world works. |
11-07-2014, 11:22 AM | #431 |
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This conversation is really a shoot off from a discussion about Bayonetta's sexuality, remember, if you're talking about seeing things that aren't there. If you can find an egrious example of complete freeballing reinterpretation, go on. That's not what the gamergaters I've spoken to talk about. They complain about games with intentional overt sexuality, having that aspect commented on. Namely Bayonetta 2 and Dragon's Crown. The sexuality is there because these mass produced commercial games products are aimed and marketed at a particular demographic.
You love persuasive cases though. You were complementing Kalyx on his quoque. |
11-07-2014, 11:54 AM | #432 | |
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Kal wasn't making a "persuasive" or "emotional" case, you're incorrect.
I tend to actually agree with the sentiment expressed by sane feminists and culture critics that almost everything is overly sexualized, more specifically almost everything that has young children as a target demo (ie. Bratz, Monster High, Thomas the Train) However, most of the critiques from these PC Police tend to be misplaced. "Why aren't more games helmed by female protagonists? Is it because gamers are all rapists?" Isn't too far off from how SJWs think about everything. Here is an example from a industry where I actually know something about: Quote:
If you take a moment to read this you'll see that the "critique" has nothing to do with actually making good science fiction. It is reveling in the idea of being politically correct and progressive and it is full of a singular intent to push people into group think. |
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11-07-2014, 12:16 PM | #433 |
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Some things put sexy women in them and on them in an attempt to grab attention and money from my stupid male brain. It is a mercenary act. I am of course immune to this thanks to wXe but I'm allowed to criticise the practice. Games do this a lot.
And science fiction is at it's best when it's a playground for breaking down and reconstructing human concepts. You've lost it. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face there. |
11-07-2014, 07:07 PM | #434 |
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The point is rather than make a better product; these people are consumed by what they themselves decided to interpret it by. And even that would be fine on its own - except they go one step further in vilifying (directly or subtly) people who call them out or ignore them. It goes from 'personal opinion' to drawing a line, and then they fuss at people who choose the other side of the line.
Sci-Fi historically plays with conventions. That's cool. No problem with that. Some of the most progressive works ever stem from Sci-Fi. But here she comes conjuring up an issue where none existed, and then drew a line (creating a term 'post-binary sci-fi') that ironically forces a binary choice. I mean, she could have just simply wrote stories pertaining to her viewpoints. Instead it's about seeing who's down with the program and who's the 'old guard'. They do this all the fucking time. It's been observed that SJWs (and to a degree feminists) have a habit of making moves on certain industries after they've initially assimilated (or seem to have done so). They're there. Everything's gully. It would be some thing that unites people on common interests. And then BOOM; all of sudden somebody highlights an 'issue' nobody noticed. They create terms (ablist, etc) and then draw a line. It screwed with biology. It screwed with Atheism. It screwed with politics. It continues to fuck over universities. It made a mockery out of Occupy. It completely destroyed Tumblr (or made it hilarious depending on who you ask). It's slowly made moves on comics. And it's been pouring over the game industry this last generation. And the biggest consistency is how in many of these groups/industries - they are almost NEVER the content makers or gears of that industry. If they were, they could simply subvert things on a legit scale. This is why GaymerX is great, but 'safe zones' at other conventions are insulting. |
11-07-2014, 07:57 PM | #435 |
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Some big sci fi writers already have plenty of LGBT style aliens and main characters. It's pretty common. Only an idiot from the outside would think the genre somehow is missing out.
Sci fi, like all other genres, is at its best when it's entertaining. If it does not entertain, then you're doing it wrong. Very simple concept. |
11-08-2014, 05:56 AM | #436 |
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Surely there's a page in the logical fallacy scrapbook devoted to this old chestnut? Zoe Quinn would come to mind as someone who was trying to make a better product. Otherwise, that sentiment is a meaningless platitude of "you do it". Me? I've developed small games, I can code. I've also criticised games. I don't have any special privilege to criticise games over anyone else. If I released one of my games, I'm not going to line up the people who talk about my game, pat them down for their credentials and disregard their views.
It's interesting that you paint this as a unified movement of people, and also that you refer to GamerGate in the first person plural. This really seems to be a front of two groups to you, rather than scattered individuals. I'll even grant that gamergate isn't a bunch of this or that. It's a snowball movement that people are desperate to get into. It operates via boards, where it's easy to get angry, but mostly via twitter, which is the most infuriating by design thing to enter the world since the automobile. I want it to stop because while it runs, it will activate people who need an excuse to attack. On top of all this, I don't think the movement is worth anything because, as I've said, it's demands are fatally flawed. The frontier of games has withstood criticism for a long time. Your notion of people infiltrating it doesn't work for me. There's nothing to infiltrate, unless you view gaming as a refuge, a closed society, a tree house. The shop front is open. It was interesting to see DTTS say, 'PC Police' as a libertarian gent. Using a word that represents the authority of the state to describe the free speech of individual citizens. I am puzzled as to why none of this falls under free speech because it is absolutely that. The best thing is that the creator has openly invited people to evaluate and post their thoughts on the game. They'll even send people free copies in advance to do this! It is bizarre that here reviewers and commenters are being squashed from one side that they're not allowed to show corruption, bias or favouritism, and then are simultaneously being pushed back to erase all feelings and be objective. DTTS, the guy has a passion and you've already got the baton out. What the fuck has he done to deserve you laying into him? He's written about a change he'd like to see, a socially progressive change, in the medum of sci-fi, which is not at it's best when it's describing the operational range of a phaser, but exploring strange new worlds, seeking out new life and new civilisations. Sci-Fi has also been mostly a masculine treehouse for a long time too. Except Star Trek, in my experience. Space travel is taken for granted in a lot of sci-fi. Someone writes an article about transhumanism and you're offended. Read again how offended you got about an article that just existed to suggest a change. I'm emotional, what's your excuse? I was trying to think about where this love of objectivity would come from. It's a bizarre thing to fetishise and I was a bit stuck. Then I remember that Ayn Rand was absolutely furious with most philosophers because they questioned the nature of everything and she had to put her foot down and say, "No, if I say I'm right then I'm right, A is A and I'm going to lay out the society for very smart people who are practicioners of alwaysrightism." I think she was wrong, objectivity is a bit silly, and in critical opinion it's ludicrous. |
11-08-2014, 10:16 AM | #437 |
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lol
Are you on drugs? Free speech means I support the right of people I disagree with to say disagreeable things. It does not mean I have to like it. You must be absolutely out of your mind on drugs if you can't understand that the PC culture is one that attacks speech at every possible chance. They are anti-speech and anti-expression. This isn't quantum physics, this is basic basic fact. I oppose the agenda, not the utterance of said agenda. I do not seek a government solution to put an end to speech I do not like. I do not make threats of violence toward these people. I just disagree with them. Rewrite that entire poorly thought-out post if you want to engage me in a discussion. |
11-08-2014, 10:30 AM | #438 |
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TheRogerer made a game about rape simulation and someone complained it was too rapey. Now he makes games about consensual sex. What a sheep.
TheRogerer made a game about a 7 year old girl with super-powers fighting a multi-national corporation and someone complained that the girl was white and was not a Lesbian. He explained that she was 7 and far too young to really know what she preferred, but he agreed to change her race to appease the critics. He made her black, but did not change the dialogue or gender influence. The critics complained that her skin color did not reflect the expected cultural norms (ie. stereotypes) and told you how insulting it is to make black people too white. The proponents of child sexuality continued to complain that she wasn't able to express her desire or experiment with her body. TheRogerer then rewrote the dialogue with a black writer, but was adamant about how the 7 year old child should not have a "sexual identity". Now with a proper PC approved protagonist the critics complain that she uses violence to overcome her attackers who are predominately male, why not just teach men not to attack young women they ask? TheRogerer, being the good progressive that he is, redesigns the game from the ground up as a way to teach violent thugs not to rape, discriminate or judge anyone at anytime for any reason. Then he includes a masturbation mini-game. GamerMagazineonline gives the game 5 stars, but nobody aside from the niche enjoys it. |
11-08-2014, 11:03 AM | #439 | |
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The spin that we are the ones against free speech is innovative, I admit.
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11-08-2014, 11:27 AM | #440 |
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Who is the collective? The developers or the audience? Because the audience is the world. How can you be an outsider to a mass produced product stacked at the door of Walmart? It is pop culture. It is multi million dollar advertising budgets. Is Arthur Gies somehow an outsider? Why is Anita Sarkeesian an outsider? She's an 18-35 tech savvy American. Am I an infiltrator?
Don't think I've seen DTTS break as much as this. He's acting like me. Polemic is everything. All the chess pieces go back in the same box. |