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Old 10-05-2015, 07:02 PM   #201
Damian Rey
 
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The fans voicing their opinion wasn't a storyline until they did the yes movement segment. Outside of using it to mock Bryan before dumping him down the card, it was largely ignored. Not to mention, nobody is arguing the road it took to get to Wrestlemania that year. The argument, well, fact really, was that it was completely unplanned and only when Vince's hand was forced in fear of having his main event drowned out with chants for a guy not in the match did the story change course.

To which again I challenge you to answer why Daniel Bryan would lie not only in non company interviews but company produced media about not being scheduled in the main event. He has said it a number of times that he was not the guy until the fans forced him to be. What reason is there to lie about that? It sure doesn't make WWE look good in bringing it public.
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Old 10-05-2015, 08:05 PM   #202
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Damian, wasn't it you that posted the video of Bryan explaining what the plan for WrestleMania was for him? Seriously, you should just post that in response every time. lol The fact that this is still an argument after that video is beyond ridiculous.
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Old 10-05-2015, 08:23 PM   #203
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Indeed it was. I can't imagine or take this CyNick guy seriously when he keeps saying he's "looks at the facts" but has avoided addressing that video.
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Old 10-05-2015, 08:38 PM   #204
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Didn't Batista's relationship with the WWE legitimately sour over the Daniel Bryan creative direction that was apparently "planned"?
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:20 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey View Post
The fans voicing their opinion wasn't a storyline until they did the yes movement segment. Outside of using it to mock Bryan before dumping him down the card, it was largely ignored. Not to mention, nobody is arguing the road it took to get to Wrestlemania that year. The argument, well, fact really, was that it was completely unplanned and only when Vince's hand was forced in fear of having his main event drowned out with chants for a guy not in the match did the story change course.

To which again I challenge you to answer why Daniel Bryan would lie not only in non company interviews but company produced media about not being scheduled in the main event. He has said it a number of times that he was not the guy until the fans forced him to be. What reason is there to lie about that? It sure doesn't make WWE look good in bringing it public.
How was he forced? Bryan was over for months, even before the build to Mania. He was over when he fought Cena. Hell, he was over the Mania where he fought Sheamus.

Its like some of you guys think Vince couldnt book Bryan down the card.

Here's how Vince completely buried Bryan

Summerslam - main event - beats Cena clean then gets screwed the same night out of the title
Night of Champions - main event - Bryan beats Orton clean
Battleground - main event - No contest with Orton
Hell in a Cell - main event - Loses but only because of a massive screwjob
Survivor Series - semi main event - works with Punk against Wyatts to start new program
TLC - semi main event - continues program with Wyatts
Rumble - continues feud with Wyatt (notice he loses a program to a heel. Would be cool if he were to win the title at Mania, they would have a heel with a built in reason for a program)
Chamber - Main event - (lost but only so they could shoot the angle on TV and maximize TV viewers)
Mania - beats HHH clean AND wins WWE title (Vince accidentally pays off 8 months of a top babyface getting screwed by having him go over on the biggest stage in entertainment).

Vince really screwed up here. Since his goal was to bury Daniel Bryan, he should have just put him with Hornswaggle dressed as a billygoat and called them the GOATs and go after the tag straps. I'm sure he regrets it to this day.
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:22 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Damian, wasn't it you that posted the video of Bryan explaining what the plan for WrestleMania was for him? Seriously, you should just post that in response every time. lol The fact that this is still an argument after that video is beyond ridiculous.
You really think Bryan is going to giveaway legit company secrets while he's still one of the top guys? If thats what you think, cool.

The myth of the whole "YES Movement" that WWE helped cultivate was based on the premise that all of you seem to have bought into, that he wasn't part of the larger plans long term. Yet, there he was at or near the top of the card. Why? I dunno, for shits and giggles I guess.
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:23 PM   #207
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Can you please explain why Daniel Bryan lied when he said he wasn't supposed to be in the main event? You keep avoiding that point and it's rather hilarious. If it was supposedly part of the plan why is the main cog involved saying otherwise?
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:28 PM   #208
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Didn't Batista's relationship with the WWE legitimately sour over the Daniel Bryan creative direction that was apparently "planned"?
Listen, I'mnot doubting that Batista v Orton could have been one of the many options that was considered for Mania.

The rumour as I recall it was I believe Bryan was going to face Sheamus, HHH was to face Punk (who was teaming with Bryan prior to Punk leaving), and Orton vs Batista.

I believe Bryan is not the ideal guy that Vince would want to be champion, but neither was Chris Benoit or Eddie Guerrero and I seem to recall being at MSG seeing those guys each win half a world title. So every now and then, Vince goes all the way with a guy who doesnt fit his mold. I think its likely the whole Punk-HHH match was going to serve the same purpose that Bryan-HHH did at Mania. To get Bryan into the match. The rumoured Sheamus-Bryan match was just for The Authority to further screw Bryan (even if HHH somehow were to lose to Punk, here's this guy who beat you in 10 seconds who will lay a beating on you). Maybe Batista was never told about that plan. Maybe they knew Batista would be less than thrilled. I keep coming back to, why cocktease with Bryan, if you have no intention of paying it off either at Mania or shortly thereafter.
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:28 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Damian Rey View Post
Can you please explain why Daniel Bryan lied when he said he wasn't supposed to be in the main event? You keep avoiding that point and it's rather hilarious. If it was supposedly part of the plan why is the main cog involved saying otherwise?
kayfabe. Ive said it probably ten times in various threads.
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:44 PM   #210
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Kayfabe? Lol you mean kayfabe that is regularly broken to the point that it's welcome? Lol what a joke. Kayfabe? Yeah. I'm sure that's what it is. Even though telling people "they planned me to go against Sheamus", revealing a behind the scenes convo, breaks kayfabe. Lmao. You're incredible.
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:45 PM   #211
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I keep coming back to, why cocktease with Bryan, if you have no intention of paying it off either at Mania or shortly thereafter.
Because bad writers write things really badly.

Or there's a big conspiracy by Bryan and others to make the fans think the writers are bad. Because that's the preferable option to "giving away company secrets".

Call me crazy... The former seems more logical. I DUNNO.
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:46 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey View Post
Kayfabe? Lol you mean kayfabe that is regularly broken to the point that it's welcome? Lol what a joke. Kayfabe? Yeah. I'm sure that's what it is. Even though telling people "they planned me to go against Sheamus", revealing a behind the scenes convo, breaks kayfabe. Lmao. You're incredible.
not kayfabe like "I'm pretending like its not a work". Kayfabe like we have a story we want the masses to believe (the YES Movement was this thing created by the fans to get Bryan something that wasnt panned).
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:47 PM   #213
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When you call "conspiracy" you've made it so where even the guy you're talking about saying your wrong isn't sufficient evidence. So there's really no reason to even try at this point.
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:47 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Because bad writers write things really badly.

Or there's a big conspiracy by Bryan and others to make the fans think the writers are bad. Because that's the preferable option to "giving away company secrets".

Call me crazy... The former seems more logical. I DUNNO.
OR

Vince booked a babyface to get screwed, and then close to Mania set something in motion that gets said babyface in a position to buck the odds and come out shining like a rose.

But nahhh
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Old 10-06-2015, 01:39 AM   #215
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... and then Bryan and others went out of their way to make the fans think the writers are bad as to not "give away company secrets. That falls under that second option I listed. Jesus Christ, dude...
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Old 10-06-2015, 03:15 AM   #216
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Just looked at the Raw thread. I'm now convinced this is either a gimmick or CyNick is on the WWE payroll.
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Old 10-06-2015, 05:37 AM   #217
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This is gimmick, but I genuinely do think that CyNick thinks he is making sense.
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Old 10-06-2015, 12:26 PM   #218
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Just looked at the Raw thread. I'm now convinced this is either a gimmick or CyNick is on the WWE payroll.
I think I made three comments in there. One was a terrible joke. The others were just random musings.

Gimmick would be "Hey guys, that was the greatest RAW in the history of the show. Use the hashtag BESTRARWEVER to discuss on social media".
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Old 10-06-2015, 10:58 PM   #219
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Wow,


Looks like I'm the only one that thinks The CyNick is destroying everyone in this thread.


Sorry guys - I love you all, but CyNick's arguments are far and away more sensical than everyone trying to debate him here........and I mean that in the nicest way possible.


The boards are lucky that CyNick is even posting here (after a 10+ year absence).


His opinions are always welcome in my books (atleast the odd time that I graze the forums).




p.s.____________CyNick's no troll by the way. His thoughts, posts, and analysis' are quite deep. If you guys actually paid attention to him instead of admonishing him, you might actually learn something. Ask guys like Loose Cannon and Rob Harvey if they think CyNick doesn't know what he's talking about. Holy fuck.
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Old 10-06-2015, 11:00 PM   #220
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I welcome the differing opinion, but they're still wrong
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Old 10-06-2015, 11:04 PM   #221
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I welcome the differing opinion, but they're still wrong


I disagree. I can't find one thing wrong that he's said in this thread.


Granted - I think CyNick should atleast admit that the current WWE product can be improved, but aside from that, everything else he's said in this thread is 100% true.


I hate getting involved in something that I was never really a part of, but this thread has legitimately shocked me. I don't think CyNick has come across as arrogant or whatever at all. Really mind boggling stuff to me. Or are people in this thread just upset that CyNick flat out destroyed people's counter-arguments in this thread?


Weird weird stuff.
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Old 10-06-2015, 11:32 PM   #222
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I don't think he's arrogant at all to be honest, I quite like the guy. I still think he's full of shit though.

The product is lacking and has been for a long time. His excuses are generally centred around a different demographic than us liking it, but I countered with the fact that good t.v. is good t.v., demographics be damned. Most of his arguments against myself are about the fact that I'm some internet fan, and don't really address the actual points I make.

Believe it or not, I don't really rate Dave Meltzer that highly on his opinions, I think him to be a bit of a blow hard, but I know sht when I see it on my t.v.
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Old 10-06-2015, 11:45 PM   #223
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Heyman's stance on CyNick makes no sense when you read his current discussion thread and how CyNick thinks Rollin losing because he's a heel is good, the current roster's lack of stars is because of the performers not stepping up, and the wwe in general being booked just fine.
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Old 10-06-2015, 11:49 PM   #224
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Heyman mostly likes when someone "goes against the grain" and garners some kind of a reaction. I think there's some good to it, but when the conversations generally go no where it kind of gets silly.
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Old 10-07-2015, 12:53 AM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey View Post
Heyman's stance on CyNick makes no sense when you read his current discussion thread and how CyNick thinks Rollin losing because he's a heel is good, the current roster's lack of stars is because of the performers not stepping up, and the wwe in general being booked just fine.
Yup. Read everything Heyman said in this thread in the same tone as "Facetious Noid" posts, as I'd just read his thread blaming WWE for their own ills.
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Old 10-07-2015, 12:55 AM   #226
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Noid's current gimmick will no doubt lead him to a world title run.
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Old 10-07-2015, 01:15 AM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
I disagree. I can't find one thing wrong that he's said in this thread.


Granted - I think CyNick should atleast admit that the current WWE product can be improved, but aside from that, everything else he's said in this thread is 100% true.


I hate getting involved in something that I was never really a part of, but this thread has legitimately shocked me. I don't think CyNick has come across as arrogant or whatever at all. Really mind boggling stuff to me. Or are people in this thread just upset that CyNick flat out destroyed people's counter-arguments in this thread?


Weird weird stuff.
Holy shit, guys...I think Heyman's finally gone senile.
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Old 10-07-2015, 01:33 AM   #228
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The most perplexing thing to me in this thread, is CyNick's stance on Daniel Bryan (the correct one I might add), vs. Everyone else's opinions.


At Summerslam 2013, Daniel Bryan didn't just beat John Cena.........he went over the guy cleanly. Period. Then, AFTER all that, we saw the Triple H/Randy Orton screw job on Bryan, along with the birth of The Authority.


How do you guys NOT see that event as the start of a long term angle? (with the obvious intention of Daniel Bryan ultimately going over?!?). Like holy fuck.


Don't get me wrong - I have a lot of respect for many of the posters in this thread (Dale Newstead, Noid, Damien Rey, etc., etc.), but lets face it. You guys flat out tasted CyNick's penis in this thread, and especially this argument.


If the WWE really had zero intention of pushing Daniel Bryan in a massive way, they would NOT have had him go over John Cena cleanly.


If we're operating under the assumption that, "Controversy sells," then do you NOT think that Dave Batista winning the Royal Rumble was one of the most ingenious things that the WWE has ever done? (knowing full well that backlash that would occur amongst both marks AND the IWC).


C'mon people.
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Old 10-07-2015, 01:38 AM   #229
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So why would Daniel Bryan say otherwise in interviews both within and outside the company? CyNick's lame excuse was Bryan was protecting kayfabe, even though speaking about behind the scenes conversations breaks kayfabe.

So what reason does Daniel Bryan have to lie about the original pitch he received pertaining to his mania spot?
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Old 10-07-2015, 01:41 AM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
How was he forced? Bryan was over for months, even before the build to Mania. He was over when he fought Cena. Hell, he was over the Mania where he fought Sheamus.

Its like some of you guys think Vince couldnt book Bryan down the card.

Here's how Vince completely buried Bryan

Summerslam - main event - beats Cena clean then gets screwed the same night out of the title
Night of Champions - main event - Bryan beats Orton clean
Battleground - main event - No contest with Orton
Hell in a Cell - main event - Loses but only because of a massive screwjob
Survivor Series - semi main event - works with Punk against Wyatts to start new program
TLC - semi main event - continues program with Wyatts
Rumble - continues feud with Wyatt (notice he loses a program to a heel. Would be cool if he were to win the title at Mania, they would have a heel with a built in reason for a program)
Chamber - Main event - (lost but only so they could shoot the angle on TV and maximize TV viewers)
Mania - beats HHH clean AND wins WWE title (Vince accidentally pays off 8 months of a top babyface getting screwed by having him go over on the biggest stage in entertainment).

Vince really screwed up here. Since his goal was to bury Daniel Bryan, he should have just put him with Hornswaggle dressed as a billygoat and called them the GOATs and go after the tag straps. I'm sure he regrets it to this day.


I completely agree with this 1000% percent.


The only thing I would have done differently, would be in having Daniel Bryan winning cleanly over Wyatt, and then having Bryan get screwed in the actual Royal Rumble (Bryan enters).


The WWE were lucky that Bryan was 'over' to such a large extent, that losing cleanly to Bray didn't hurt him, but I'm a fan of that type of booking. When you've got a hot star like that, you protect him as much as you can. No reason whatsoever to have Daniel jobbing to Bray.


Other than though, I agree with everything you said.
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Old 10-07-2015, 01:44 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey View Post
So why would Daniel Bryan say otherwise in interviews both within and outside the company? CyNick's lame excuse was Bryan was protecting kayfabe, even though speaking about behind the scenes conversations breaks kayfabe.

So what reason does Daniel Bryan have to lie about the original pitch he received pertaining to his mania spot?


Honestly, I have no idea. I have no idea if he was protecting kayfabe, or if Daniel Bryan did in fact, feel that way.


What I do know is this: If the WWE actually felt that Bryan was a "B+" player and had no business being anywhere near a main-event, they wouldn't have had him go C-L-E-A-N-L-Y over Cena at Summerslam 2013. Period. There's just no way beating around that bush.


If the WWE really felt that Daniel Bryan was a mid-card performer, and had no intentions of pushing him long term, my best guess is that they would've had Bryan go over Cena in a completely flukey way (i.e. Orton interference?), and then have heel Orton cleanly defeat Daniel Bryan to win the title a month later.
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Old 10-07-2015, 01:51 AM   #232
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Except straight from the horse's mouth, he said it wasn't the case. I get it'd be nice to think WWE was able to predict the ridiculous fan backlash to Batista winning the Rumble despite being booked as a face for a month, and that the original plan all along was to push Bryan into the main event.

However, when the subject of the conversation itself states bluntly he wasn't going to main event, there's no argument to be had otherwise. You can assume, or speculate that he'd make the company look like idiots by lying that he wasn't planned to main event, but that's all it is.

Bryan himself said it wasn't the plan. What's there to argue after that?
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Old 10-07-2015, 02:08 AM   #233
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The main reason Bryan beat Cena cleanly was more due to Cena needing time off and WWE needing a top face to quickly take Cena's spot. Only reason Cena never got his chance to get a win back was because by the time the situation would be ripe for it, Bryan was getting derailed with injuries.

Once Cena came back, Bryan was quickly put to the side and relegated to semi-minor status in the Authority feud. Crowd began to rebell once they saw the WWE didn't really cared for Bryan and wanted the focus on Cena vs Orton/Authority only. Got worse with the rebelling once it became obvious the WWE wanted Batista to get the big win over the Authority and not Bryan at Mania.
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Old 10-07-2015, 11:16 AM   #234
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Bryan beating Cena could be seen as many things. A trial, a grace, a good booking decision, an attempt at an immediate ratings spike, Cena needing time off. Granted, I've had the same conspiracy theory in my head before. Maybe, just maybe the WWE worked out that bad booking is the good booking. Maybe that's why they had Sheamus beat him in 18 seconds at WrestleMania 28? Brilliant. Maybe that's why they delayed his eventual rise by two years, despite knowing that his health couldn't have been great going into WrestleMania 31 when the best choice was to have him return and win the Rumble, so they didn't, but still put him in the match and had him drop out like an afterthought.

I'm running my sentences together here, but come on, guys. I love Heyman and do have some love for CyNick the human and the old poster, but the idea that it was a masterplan all along is pretty bullshit. Right down to them booking Orton vs. Bryan together until it couldn't probably ever do business again.

The only other time I had that same conspiracy "bad booking is the good booking" idea is when I saw The New Day start to gain traction as a heel group. No wonder Vince debuted them as bland babyfaces that could never win a match! It was the Rocky Maivia/Rock plan all along! Brilliant.

Then The New Day came out and said Vince legit thought that they would be over as faces. And there are countless other documented examples where Vince has been out of touch with reality. It's not moronic to assume that the WWE fucked up. Especially when you can see how the aftermath of it all affected the WWE's relationships with other performers, such as Batista and CM Punk (regardless of what their own egos had to do with things).

They legitimately sidetracked Bryan from the main feud which they were already dragging out. By the same token, if this were a master plan, the same thing would have been achieved by Dean Ambrose last year when he got pulled out of his feud with Seth Rollins to go against Bray Wyatt. He wasn't going to go away. But Bryan was just un-fuckable at that point.

CyNick's arguments revolve almost entirely around "Look at what happened when the WWE was critically successful! It was criticially successful, right? It must have been planned!" He beat Cena? That was huge. And it was an angle to build to something. No one is saying it wasn't. It's just that no one else is naive enough to give the WWE credit for giving someone a credible reverse push when they can't even push guys successfully.

And what good will it builds for the company to allow the credit of their product to be attributed to a conspiracy theory. It's not like NASA did a real moon landing to stage a fake.
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Old 10-07-2015, 11:18 AM   #235
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If the plan was such a brilliant one, why didn't it draw bigger business?
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Old 10-07-2015, 11:19 AM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heyman View Post
Honestly, I have no idea. I have no idea if he was protecting kayfabe, or if Daniel Bryan did in fact, feel that way.


What I do know is this: If the WWE actually felt that Bryan was a "B+" player and had no business being anywhere near a main-event, they wouldn't have had him go C-L-E-A-N-L-Y over Cena at Summerslam 2013. Period. There's just no way beating around that bush.


If the WWE really felt that Daniel Bryan was a mid-card performer, and had no intentions of pushing him long term, my best guess is that they would've had Bryan go over Cena in a completely flukey way (i.e. Orton interference?), and then have heel Orton cleanly defeat Daniel Bryan to win the title a month later.
Kevin Owens went over John Cena clean and now he's in a middling feud with Ryback after jobbing back cleanly to Cena twice. Bryan certain "got the rub" but it wasn't the kind of positioning fans wanted. They wanted him to be "THE GUY" not some other 50/50 booked guy.

Plus this argument means fuck all anyways.... it's CyNick doing his best ONCE MORE to distract from the actual point. Say they got the Bryan thing right, and it was in the cards all along, that would honest to god be one thing I can think of they got right. They also had Bret Hart win wrestlemania 10 after calling an audible on that, and they proceeded to bungle up his title reign by treating him like a mid carder. Yes, WWE has the capability to do 1 out of every thousand things right, even if they do it in an absolutely horrendous way, and SOME HOW eventually get there. But the other 999 are done pretty badly and it leads to cheap, shoddily done t.v.

In saying that, there's a reason they're the only game in town. They've obviously done a lot of things right along the way, and in certain eras were able to ignite something meaningful. But between those eras and ever since, it's all (minus some shining light) pretty meandering crap. And unfortunately as older wrestling fans, all we have is shitty ring of honor to watch, or we have to watch Japanese wrestling (which I'm not all that into).

Heyman, I believe you'd be able to understand this analogy better than anyone. WWE is like the Toronto Maple Leafs. They are able to put forth an absolutely horrendous product, and not adapt to the current landscape of quality, and still turn a profit. So nothing really changes. And even when it SEEMS thing change, it's only slightly around the corner that the same mistakes will be made, because they don't need to be all that great to turn a profit and to keep making money.
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Old 10-07-2015, 11:24 AM   #237
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By the way, for clarification: I never thought CyNick was being arrogant until recently when I saw him insulting the intelligence of people for not getting what he is laying out whilst completely misrepresenting their points. This all happened in other threads. I have no ill-will towards him as a person, and have often expressed my love to him. He certainly injected some life here until his posts became repetitive in their strawman tactics and I now miss a lot of them (sincerely try to read everyone's).

I'm guilty of the same thing towards him, but I am Evil Noid and do whatever the fuck I want.

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Old 10-07-2015, 11:25 AM   #238
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Old 10-07-2015, 11:27 AM   #239
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Old 10-07-2015, 12:20 PM   #240
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