DISCUSSION - The current WWE era and their failed strategy to "make everyone look credible."

[#1-norm-fan]

Originally Posted by Heyman Bryan and Punk had legit chances. If not for Bryan's unfortunate injuries, I think he would've had a legit shot. However - even in Bryan's push that year, I saw some stupid things. In 2014 RR for instance - how do you job Bryan cleanly to Bray Watt? That would NEVER have happened during the Attitude Era.

It was more important at that point to put Wyatt over than it was Bryan. Wyatt could have been a main event heel for years to come. The way he's been booked since then has been absolute shit but making Wyatt look scary good was the right move at that time.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan It was more important at that point to put Wyatt over than it was Bryan. Wyatt could have been a main event heel for years to come. The way he's been booked since then has been absolute shit but making Wyatt look scary good was the right move at that time.

I would agree if the plan was to build Bray Wyatt to being an eventual major challenger to Daniel Bryan. Wyatt wins (relatively cleanly, despite injury), and then Bryan wins the Royal Rumble. This also allows Wyatt's win to appear more than injury-related fluke.
"Yeah, you were hurt, Bryan -- but you would win the Rumble that night, and I still beat you."
Hell, you could have taken it further.
"I was the one who pushed you to grab the brass ring again. Your greatness is all an illusion I gave you as your GOD!"

The loss upset me, but my logical brain overrided my emotional one right after it, and I thought "Hang on -- this could be brilliant..." Alas.

[#1-norm-fan]

Originally Posted by Noid I would agree if the plan was to build Bray Wyatt to being an eventual major challenger to Daniel Bryan. Wyatt wins (relatively cleanly, despite injury), and then Bryan wins the Royal Rumble. This also allows Wyatt's win to appear more than injury-related fluke. "Yeah, you were hurt, Bryan -- but you would win the Rumble that night, and I still beat you." Hell, you could have taken it further. "I was the one who pushed you to grab the brass ring again. Your greatness is all an illusion I gave you as your GOD!" The loss upset me, but my logical brain overrided my emotional one right after it, and I thought "Hang on -- this could be brilliant..." Alas.

Or if it was just to put Wyatt over period. Bryan aside. His problem now is that he can't back up his words and it makes all those scary sounding promos laughable. When he beat the big fan favorite of the day cleanly, it went so far in giving him that aura that a character like him needs. The "Undertaker auru" if you will. It should have been the start of something huge for him. Instead... Yeah. He's just another guy nowadays.

[Tom Guycott]

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan Or if it was just to put Wyatt over period. Bryan aside. His problem now is that he can't back up his words and it makes all those scary sounding promos laughable. When he beat the big fan favorite of the day cleanly, it went so far in giving him that aura that a character like him needs. The "Undertaker auru" if you will. It should have been the start of something huge for him. Instead... Yeah. He's just another guy nowadays.

And that is the main problem. It's not so much "make everyone look good", because they really aren't doing that, it is expecting the next big thing to just develop into a homegrown, top-tier, multimedia superstar inside of 6 months... and if they can't make that happen, that talent is essentially worthless and jobs to the next 6 month project. They derail a guy/gal/team/angle/division at the expense of another, then subsequently tear down the thing they built to go a different way.

They rarely let fans take the journey with the developing rising star anymore. Revisionist WWE history will make it seem as if Austin 3:16 took the world by storm the second he walked in the door. Or, that The Rock just showed up out of nowhere and electified everyone. These guys took YEARS to get to the top. They had feuds, rivalries, face and heel turns, secondary title runs, show-stealing matches, and a few legendary promos sprinkled in over that length of time... time for them to become three dimensional characters. CM Punk wasn't big because he was an eye-rolling "indy darling" (which shouldn't always be uttered with such disgust... just because a guy makes a name for himself elsewhere shouldn't automatically earn him scorn.) Not picking on the guy, but to expect this to *just happen* for Roman Reigns was just foolishly presumptuous.

As Fan said, Bray Wyatt should have been approaching Undertaker-esque levels of phenom about now. Mankind promos and Deadman dominace in Kane-like angles. Instead, he's become a glorified manager- a player/coach who goes in and lays down for the babyface of the week. When they split off Harper and Rowan, it was like they wanted all three to just *be over* as singles competitors. They had Bray just tread water, seemed to give some sort of push to Harper, and decided selling sheep masks to the kids was all they needed to present Rowan as a babyface. After that short lived and wholly unnecessary breakup, where they DIDN'T EVEN DO THE OBVIOUS of having Harper and Rowan have a massive, proper feud, they get back together as a tag team because reasons until Erik got hurt. So now, Harper, who is doing essentially nothing, is back with Wyatt doing essentially nothing. But hey, look how massive that new guy flanking him is, huh?! He's looking imposing enough to be world champion in 6 months, right?? The focus isn't remaining where it should be. In this stable, the biggest guy shouldn't necessarily be the biggest threat. Bray should be this wicked mastermind, Luke should be his loyal leftenant, and the new guy should be a wild-card. Instead, he's the focus at the expense of the other two. Until his shelf-life of being big and tall expires. Then he'll be lost in the shuffle too and job on a regular basis to the next guy they want to build instantly, only to derail that momentum for the *next* guy...

[The CyNick]

The amount of revisionist history regarding the booking in the Attitude Era and prior is hilarious. WWE has had this same style of booking for at least 15 years. Maybe more.

Nobody remembers that Hunter was doing jobs to guys like Hank Godwinn and Marc Mero.

Rocky was losing matches to Savio Vega, and looking like a bitch against Ken Shamrock.

Foley lost to tons of guys.

The main difference between then and now is that the TALENT was much better then vs today. It's like comparing a good Montreal Canadiens to the teams of the 70s and going "the coaching just isn't up to par with the 70s".

WWE would LOVE for someone to break from the pack. But nobody wants it. The last guy who did broke his neck to get there. Well Brock did it too but he's on a unique deal. All of these guys can become the biggest star in the company, they just gotta take the ball from Cena. But nobody has the tools or the desire to do it.

[Tom Guycott]

Originally Posted by The CyNick The amount of revisionist history regarding the booking in the Attitude Era and prior is hilarious. WWE has had this same style of booking for at least 15 years. Maybe more. Nobody remembers that Hunter was doing jobs to guys like Hank Godwinn and Marc Mero. Rocky was losing matches to Savio Vega, and looking like a bitch against Ken Shamrock. Foley lost to tons of guys. The main difference between then and now is that the TALENT was much better then vs today. It's like comparing a good Montreal Canadiens to the teams of the 70s and going "the coaching just isn't up to par with the 70s". WWE would LOVE for someone to break from the pack. But nobody wants it. The last guy who did broke his neck to get there. Well Brock did it too but he's on a unique deal. All of these guys can become the biggest star in the company, they just gotta take the ball from Cena. But nobody has the tools or the desire to do it.

It's not that Hunter was jobbing to Marc Mero. It's that he wasn't being pushed and penciled in to be world heavyweight champion back then, only to have them go "oh, nevermind". Sure, he ended up being an idea of what they wanted in a prototypical "guy" in the midst of being overshadowed by better, but SOME of that was bad luck, and he still had room and time to grow. He SLOWLY and believably "became better" (read: moved up the card) over time. His character evolved. He got things to do that didn't just disappear as corners were written into or something new came along and all of the focus had to be shifted to that instead of HHHs current angle.

And you can ask anyone here that I am far from a banner carrier for HHH, but if he had a time machine and were placed in the mix now with everything he had then, he would end up as a tremendous flop; and most of that would be through no fault of his own. They wouldn't let him organically work his way up the card... he would get a push to the moon, then, when the fans clearly vocalize they aren't buying that, they make him languish in the lower midcard/curtain jerk jobber who barely gets TV time until he gets a "he's still employed?" Timer like JTG had online. He wouldn't get a fair shake or time and exposure to grow organically.

[The CyNick]

But that's not even true. A lot of people on here act like everyone went on this steady upward trajectory to the top. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Hunter was at a certain level, then was pushed down, then back up, then right to top with the original DX, then kinda back down to mid card with face DX, then slowly up from there. Then as champ he was booked like a CS heel. It wasn't until his 3rd run as world champ that they really started to make him a killer, and primarily that was because Foley was a crazy person willing to do anything.

Rock had an early push, then fell off the face of the earth, then up and down. Until he reached the heights he did.

[Heyman]

Originally Posted by The CyNick The amount of revisionist history regarding the booking in the Attitude Era and prior is hilarious. WWE has had this same style of booking for at least 15 years. Maybe more.

I disagree. Once a wrestler proved themselves worthy of a push, the WWE got completely behind said guy and pushed him huge. Austin in 97', Rocky/Hunter in 98/99, Angle (to a certain extent) in 2000/2001, Lesnar in 2002, Orton/Cena/Batista in 2004. Nowadays, this 50/50 non-sense in an effort to make everyone look credible, is having an adverse effect.

Nobody remembers that Hunter was doing jobs to guys like Hank Godwinn and Marc Mero. Rocky was losing matches to Savio Vega, and looking like a bitch against Ken Shamrock.

Yes, but that was before their big pushes. The WWE didn't start going 'crazy' with Rocky and Hunter until shortly before Summerslam 1998. After that, both guys were protected big time and only lost to 'bottom feeders/mid carders' in an extremely flukey way.


Same thing with Cena. Obviously - in 2002/2003, Cena was doing his fair share of jobs as part of 'paying dues', but once he proved himself worthy, etc., the WWE strapped a rocket to his chest and protected him greatly. Hence - Cena's rapid rise and dominance throughout 2004, which allowed him to get to the top in 2005.


Orton from late 2003-Summerslam 2004 = same thing. Batista from around mid/late 2004 - Wrestlemania 2005 = same thing.

Foley lost to tons of guys.

During his peak (mid 1997-2000), who did Foley really lose to outside of Austin, Kane, Undertaker, Rocky, and Hunter? He lost to NAO who were being groomed to be the top tag team in the WWE.


Between 1997-2000, a clean win over Foley in a feud usually indicated that said wrestler was going to get pushed big time. A victory over Foley usually meant something special.

The main difference between then and now is that the TALENT was much better then vs today. It's like comparing a good Montreal Canadiens to the teams of the 70s and going "the coaching just isn't up to par with the 70s". WWE would LOVE for someone to break from the pack. But nobody wants it. The last guy who did broke his neck to get there. Well Brock did it too but he's on a unique deal. All of these guys can become the biggest star in the company, they just gotta take the ball from Cena. But nobody has the tools or the desire to do it.

I agree with you to a certain extent, but I think the WWE could have done a better job in elevating certain guys that clearly deserved better (i.e. Rusev).


Do you mean to tell me that CM Punk circa 2011 wasn't worthy enough to break away from the pack? How did Hunter squashing Punk in 2011.......when Punk was white hot.......help Punk or the business at all?

[The CyNick]

I will admit a bias when it comes to Punk. I think he's a heck of a worker, but I never saw him as someone who could be "the guy". He just looks like someone who came off a 4 day heroin binge. If I were WWE I wouldnt want him to be the face of the franchise, and I think he's the type of guy who would limit the growth of the company.

That said, I dont think one win or one loss to a guy with Hunter's stature will hurt your push no matter who you are. Just like Austin never got hurt losing two huge matches to Bret Hard squeaky clean. If you have talent, the fans will see that. Heck, Daniel Bryan lost to Wyatt and he was still the most over guy in the company for a period of time.

I think Punk got over to the portion of the audience that likes him, and he did great. But I dont think he had the ability to be a guy like Austin or Rock who brought in casual fans.

Foley is a good example of a guy who came in right off the bat to main event spot with Taker. He "won" one match, and then was beaten like a drum by Taker for months. Then when that program was done he was in no mans land for months. Somehow Foley managed to get himself back to the top of the card and reached much higher heights years later. Why? Because he was talented.

So I dont have sympathy for a guy like Kevin Owens who got to debut in a program with the guy who has run the place for a decade. Thats a big deal. Do you think Neville would have preferred working three high profile matches with Cena or that program with the actor guy and Stardust? Its up to Kevin Owens to scratch and claw and prove he is BETTER than Cena, so he can take his spot. Thats what I think guys are missing today.

I do understand what you are saying about it appearing that back in the Attitude Era there appeared to be more clearly defined levels. Opening card guy, then IS tile level guys, then main eventers, then your top guy. Now its more of a thing where one month you could be working a program with a main eventer, but then next month you are in some random IC level program. Is that hurting getting guys to the next level? Possibly. But Im not convinced. I still maintain if you have the talent, you cant be held down forever.