Jump The Shark Moments

[Big Vic]

"Finger Poke of Doom" was the exact minute WCW jumped the shark.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Simple Fan And Reigns is? Barrett could have headlined Mania 27, won and be a top star right now but he's been up and down the card since then.

Reigns is more polished in the ring. Plus it's a different thing headlining as a heel vs headlining as a babyface.

[Simple Fan]

Bull shit Reigns is more polished in the ring. Barrett is a better in ring worker than Reigns. Barret doesn't have to rely on moves that are designed to get a pop.

[Emperor Smeat]

No specific moment for WCW but probably somewhere during the time Jeff Jarrett was their top star. Fingerpoke of Doom might have been when I started to watch a lot more WWF than WCW at the time.

For the WWE, Triple H's "Reign of Terror" in general since at the time my college didn't have UPN so I saw very little of the prime Smackdown Six era while RAW was getting really boring during that period.

[Big Vic]

As much as I really hated watching Raw during that era, he really did make Batista off of that.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Simple Fan Bull shit Reigns is more polished in the ring. Barrett is a better in ring worker than Reigns. Barret doesn't have to rely on moves that are designed to get a pop.

Lol you JUST described why Barrett isn't ready.

Amazing!

[DAMN iNATOR]

Can't believe nobody's mentioned it yet, but at the end of RAW one night in 2002 or 2003, Triple H showed up and said 2 words: Katie Vick.

Now, the storyline was as atrociously bad as it could be to begin with, but then they showed supposed footage IN A FUNERAL PARLOR with Triple H (in a Kane mask abd red shirt with "BIG FREAK'N MACHINE" on it) having sex with a cheerleader mannequin meant to represent Katie Vick....my poor, poor eyes and ears!

NSFW: show

[BigDaddyCool]

The Zombie or the Goobily Gooker

[Lock Jaw]

The only time ever rassling has jumped the shark is in WCW with Vince Russo and all the "worked shoots".... especially the Hogan stuff.

There have been a lot of "bad", "cringeworthy" stuff..... but the "worked shoots" and Hogan things weren't just bad, they were "destroying the genre"....

[The Condor]

The moment I gave up was Bad Blood 2003, and I didn't come back until right before Wrestlemania 27. The HHH v. Nash match made me feel embarrassed, to see two guys who couldn't do anything right try every parlor trick they could to make a match look credible. This was in the midst of the vaunted "HHH reign of terror" and the product, on all levels, was just drab, boring and hard to watch. It was difficult to watch RAW and I moved on with my life. I've caught up since then on a lot of stuff, but the WWE has never truly gotten me back. I just feel that everything went to shit after WM 19.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

The Jump the Shark moment had to have been somewhere in between Stone Cold Steve Austin's heel turn and HHH fucking a fake corpse. Somewhere in ALL OF THAT, the shark was jumped, with the flubbed Invasion storyline being the main catalyst.

The definition of jumping the shark I believe is where a show never finds its legs after a pinnacle moment/mistake/egregious error in writing (edit) (ie. Fonzy jumping the shark). Sure, there are still good episodes and good writing interspersed amongst the dreck, but realistically all the steam is lost. I would say the Invasion storyline really got the ball rolling, but Wrestlemania X7 was the apex of success for the company, and Austin turning heel symbolizes the compromise of integrity in the product often associated with jumping the shark. I personally though Austin was tremendous as a heel... but Austin hob knobbing with Vince, playing the ukelele with Kurt and generally being a chicken shit went against the attitude which helped the company reach its heights. Turning Austin heel, made him just another wrestler. What made Austin the guy people flocked to was that although he was kind of a bad guy (what with stunning women, drinking on the job, beating up non wrestlers etc.) was that behind all of that, he had a code (ala Omar from the Wire) and that Code was that he was not a fucking sell out. That was the very foundation of what made the WWF at the time. He was a go to hero to a lot of people... yeah, your girlfriend left you, you got fired from your job, you have erectile dysfunctions... but fuck, Stone Cold Steve Austin would die before he sold out to Vince McMahon and became just another wishy washy wrestling character whose allegiances would change on the whimsy of a creative decision.

If the company was willing to compromise the integrity of Stone Cold Steve Austin's character (albeit with his full support), it comes as no surprise that they never really found their stride again after that. Stone Cold hugging Vince McMahon is like Archie Bunker adopting a black child, it kills his edge, and really deflates the moral of those who supported him for all those years. The only way it works, is if there is someone waiting to have the torch passed to them... but there was nobody.

From there, the Invasion... well... less said the better, and the company slowly but surely stumbled there way into HHH fucking a corpse on live t.v. Somewhere in between all of that I feel like it doesn't take a fucking rocket scientist to put together that they lost the plot and it really starts with the killing of the greatest Anti-Hero character in all of wrestling history.

The company has never ever recaptured the magic they had with the Austin/Rock era and it all begins with the ill conceived heel turn at Mania X7. Realistically it's because they didn't have anymore competition so they've been on autopilot ever since, but the Austin Heel Turn symbolizes the company really losing their edge.

[Theo Dious]

"IT WAS ME, AUSTIN!"
The whole Ministry angle was really corny and all but it was at least good storytelling. Say what you want but it made supervillian Vince into a sympathetic figure when Taker was going after his family, forcing him to crawl to Austin for help. Killed the angle dead in its tracks. SON OF A BITCH, indeed.

[Theo Dious]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead The Jump the Shark moment had to have been somewhere in between Stone Cold Steve Austin's heel turn and HHH fucking a fake corpse. Somewhere in ALL OF THAT, the shark was jumped, with the flubbed Invasion storyline being the main catalyst. The definition of jumping the shark I believe is where a show never finds its legs after a pinnacle moment (ie. Fonzy jumping the shark). Sure, there are still good episodes and good writing interspersed amongst the dreck, but realistically all the steam is lost. I would say the Invasion storyline really got the ball rolling, but Wrestlemania X7 was the apex of success for the company, and Austin turning heel symbolizes the compromise of integrity in the product often associated with jumping the shark. I personally though Austin was tremendous as a heel... but Austin hob knobbing with Vince, playing the ukelele with Kurt and generally being a chicken shit went against the attitude which helped the company reach its heights. Turning Austin heel, made him just another wrestler. What made Austin the guy people flocked to was that although he was kind of a bad guy (what with stunning women, drinking on the job, beating up non wrestlers etc.) was that behind all of that, he had a code (ala Omar from the Wire) and that Code was that he was not a fucking sell out. That was the very foundation of what made the WWF at the time. He was a go to hero to a lot of people... yeah, your girlfriend left you, you got fired from your job, you have erectile dysfunctions... but fuck, Stone Cold Steve Austin would die before he sold out to Vince McMahon and became just another wishy washy wrestling character whose allegiances would change on the whimsy of a creative decision. If the company was willing to compromise the integrity of Stone Cold Steve Austin's character (albeit with his full support), it comes as no surprise that they never really found their stride again after that. Stone Cold hugging Vince McMahon is like Archie Bunker adopting a black child, it kills his edge, and really deflates the moral of those who supported him for all those years. The only way it works, is if there is someone waiting to have the torch passed to them... but there was nobody. From there, the Invasion... well... less said the better, and the company slowly but surely stumbled there way into HHH fucking a corpse on live t.v. Somewhere in between all of that I feel like it doesn't take a fucking rocket scientist to put together that they lost the plot and it really starts with the killing of the greatest Anti-Hero character in all of wrestling history. The company has never ever recaptured the magic they had with the Austin/Rock era and it all begins with the ill conceived heel turn at Mania X7. Realistically it's because they didn't have anymore competition so they've been on autopilot ever since, but the Austin Heel Turn symbolizes the company really losing their edge.

Austin's heel turn was ill advised but the first attempt COULD have worked, it was only in practice that it became a horrible idea. (Though some of the Taker/Kane bits were great. "Who was it that told Austin and HHH that besting up women and commentators made them badasses?") Th thing is that Austin's pre-Invasion rebirth as THE OLD STONE COLD could have justified it all, because the awesome moment where Freddie Blassie rose from his wheelchair & inspired Austin to take his +1 Pool Cue of Dearh to smite the Alliance wouldn't have had the same impact if Austin hadn't become a lost soul over the past few montths. Why they thought something that failed on the launch pad the first time would be any better in an even less believable scenerios is beyond me. At lea st we got the great matches with Austin, Jericho, and He-Who-We-Can-Apparently-Sometimes-Show-On-The-Network-Now. #still999

[Theo Dious]

O

Originally Posted by The CyNick Theo: Exactly. And he doesn't lose to random guys. He loses the blowoff against guys like Cena and Reigns along with a one off against Taker. I don't think some people understand that's what a good heel does. At some point Wyatt will have a babyface run. If he's plowed through everyone as a heel, what's the point of doing it again as a face? I said this once or twice before, but if you read a lot of the stuff on here, nobody in the top half of the card should ever lose a feud. Except Cena. He should lose all of them.

Remember when Cena lost those early matches against Taker & Brock and everyone was wringing their hands like "o noes he iz burried now?" Look how that turned out.

[Evil Vito]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead The Jump the Shark moment had to have been somewhere in between Stone Cold Steve Austin's heel turn and HHH fucking a fake corpse. Somewhere in ALL OF THAT, the shark was jumped, with the flubbed Invasion storyline being the main catalyst. The definition of jumping the shark I believe is where a show never finds its legs after a pinnacle moment (ie. Fonzy jumping the shark). Sure, there are still good episodes and good writing interspersed amongst the dreck, but realistically all the steam is lost. I would say the Invasion storyline really got the ball rolling, but Wrestlemania X7 was the apex of success for the company, and Austin turning heel symbolizes the compromise of integrity in the product often associated with jumping the shark. I personally though Austin was tremendous as a heel... but Austin hob knobbing with Vince, playing the ukelele with Kurt and generally being a chicken shit went against the attitude which helped the company reach its heights. Turning Austin heel, made him just another wrestler. What made Austin the guy people flocked to was that although he was kind of a bad guy (what with stunning women, drinking on the job, beating up non wrestlers etc.) was that behind all of that, he had a code (ala Omar from the Wire) and that Code was that he was not a fucking sell out. That was the very foundation of what made the WWF at the time. He was a go to hero to a lot of people... yeah, your girlfriend left you, you got fired from your job, you have erectile dysfunctions... but fuck, Stone Cold Steve Austin would die before he sold out to Vince McMahon and became just another wishy washy wrestling character whose allegiances would change on the whimsy of a creative decision. If the company was willing to compromise the integrity of Stone Cold Steve Austin's character (albeit with his full support), it comes as no surprise that they never really found their stride again after that. Stone Cold hugging Vince McMahon is like Archie Bunker adopting a black child, it kills his edge, and really deflates the moral of those who supported him for all those years. The only way it works, is if there is someone waiting to have the torch passed to them... but there was nobody. From there, the Invasion... well... less said the better, and the company slowly but surely stumbled there way into HHH fucking a corpse on live t.v. Somewhere in between all of that I feel like it doesn't take a fucking rocket scientist to put together that they lost the plot and it really starts with the killing of the greatest Anti-Hero character in all of wrestling history. The company has never ever recaptured the magic they had with the Austin/Rock era and it all begins with the ill conceived heel turn at Mania X7. Realistically it's because they didn't have anymore competition so they've been on autopilot ever since, but the Austin Heel Turn symbolizes the company really losing their edge.

Yep, Austin's mentioned numerous times that while he loved working as a heel, WM17 stands right with walking out before the Lesnar match as the biggest regret of his career. Says if he could do it all over again, he'd have audibled everything in the ring and surprise Vince with a Stunner at the very end, therefore making it appear that he used Vince's help just to get the belt back and sucker Vince in in the process.

It's an interesting point though. Austin turned heel at WM17. 13 months later, the company was re-named to WWE. And anybody I knew who once watched wrestling but has fallen out of touch with it still refers to it as WWF even though the "new" company name has been in place for over 13 years. It just kind of shows how many people completely phased out of wrestling right after WM17 or somewhere around then.

[Simple Fan]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Lol you JUST described why Barrett isn't ready. Amazing!

What? No, Reigns can't wrestle so he has to pull off these moves that are designed to get a pop. I mean he's a power house that barley ever lifts someone. Barrett can wrestle and doesn't have to rely on phony pop moves.

[cnoslim]

The invasion angle....watched it religiously up 'til after that angle finished then and up til now it's been off and on....

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Theo Dious O Remember when Cena lost those early matches against Taker & Brock and everyone was wringing their hands like "o noes he iz burried now?" Look how that turned out.

Yes I do. Most people here will claim he came in on day one and dominated.

Few will talk about how he got saddled with B squared and managed to turn that into something positive.

Im a firm believer in talent rising to the top.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Simple Fan What? No, Reigns can't wrestle so he has to pull off these moves that are designed to get a pop. I mean he's a power house that barley ever lifts someone. Barrett can wrestle and doesn't have to rely on phony pop moves.

Who's a better wrestler Wade Barrett or Hulk Hogan?

[Lock Jaw]

[Emperor Smeat]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead The Jump the Shark moment had to have been somewhere in between Stone Cold Steve Austin's heel turn and HHH fucking a fake corpse. Somewhere in ALL OF THAT, the shark was jumped, with the flubbed Invasion storyline being the main catalyst.

Might make a small argument that the final episode of WCW Nitro could be an earlier jumping the shark moment for the WWE.

What should have been the ushering of a new era ended up being just another McMahon family feud that evolved into the Invasion storyline and Austin's betrayal of the WWE. Austin turning heel being due to the Vince-Austin feud having no real reason to continue once the threat of WCW was gone.

Ratings-wise, WWE lost around a third to half of what it had during the Attitude Era within that short period of time and never got it back.

[Frank Drebin]

When Nikki Bella fake lost to Charlotte on Raw, Flair comes out for the celebration with tears and all that, only to have it all taken back. Then they do the exact same thing on Sunday with Flair coming out with the tears and all that. That was when the Divas Revolution jumped the shark and I lost all interest in what could have been a hot division for months on end. The culminating moment of months of whatever build that was, was something that had already happened just six days prior. Back to bathroom breaks.

[Mr. JL]

When Chris Benoit killed his family and himself. It was hard to watch wrestling for awhile after that happened.

[Big Vic]

Originally Posted by Lock Jaw The only time ever rassling has jumped the shark is in WCW with Vince Russo and all the "worked shoots".... especially the Hogan stuff. There have been a lot of "bad", "cringeworthy" stuff..... but the "worked shoots" and Hogan things weren't just bad, they were "destroying the genre"....

Hate every time a TNA worker says that "He will be going off script tonight"

Originally Posted by Theo Dious "IT WAS ME, AUSTIN!" The whole Ministry angle was really corny and all but it was at least good storytelling. Say what you want but it made supervillian Vince into a sympathetic figure when Taker was going after his family, forcing him to crawl to Austin for help. Killed the angle dead in its tracks. SON OF A BITCH, indeed.

I feel like "The Greater Power should not existed or have just been Shane.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball Might make a small argument that the final episode of WCW Nitro could be an earlier jumping the shark moment for the WWE. What should have been the ushering of a new era ended up being just another McMahon family feud that evolved into the Invasion storyline and Austin's betrayal of the WWE. Austin turning heel being due to the Vince-Austin feud having no real reason to continue once the threat of WCW was gone. Ratings-wise, WWE lost around a third to half of what it had during the Attitude Era within that short period of time and never got it back.

Very valid point, which I kind of alluded to at the end of my post. I think in all actuality, WCW dying and Vince buying it was wrestling as a whole jumping the shark because really, it killed the fun of it all and WWE didn't have to be all that good anymore. But I think the ultimate embodiment of that fact was Austin turning heel like any other wrestler, when in all actuality this guy was the biggest star in history, and one thing he should never had done until there was no other option, maybe years and years down the line, was side with Vince McMahon.

Think about it, it took Hulk Hogan (including his AWA days) from like 1983 or something to 1996 to turn heel, and he only turned heel when he really wasn't over as a face anymore. I know it was a different time and slower moving, but jeez have some integrity Vince! You won't turn John Cena heel, who gets booed out of the building (though I can see where he's coming from), but you'll turn Steve Austin heel only 4 years after he started his face run.

[screech]

This thread makes me think of when Batista came out during the Slammys and did the interrupting Kanye bit. Pretty sure it was like, 6 months after the original "event."

Not sure if that fits here, but I keep thinking of it when I read this thread.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead Very valid point, which I kind of alluded to at the end of my post. I think in all actuality, WCW dying and Vince buying it was wrestling as a whole jumping the shark because really, it killed the fun of it all and WWE didn't have to be all that good anymore. But I think the ultimate embodiment of that fact was Austin turning heel like any other wrestler, when in all actuality this guy was the biggest star in history, and one thing he should never had done until there was no other option, maybe years and years down the line, was side with Vince McMahon. Think about it, it took Hulk Hogan (including his AWA days) from like 1983 or something to 1996 to turn heel, and he only turned heel when he really wasn't over as a face anymore. I know it was a different time and slower moving, but jeez have some integrity Vince! You won't turn John Cena heel, who gets booed out of the building (though I can see where he's coming from), but you'll turn Steve Austin heel only 4 years after he started his face run.

I didn't like the decision but I understand why it was done.

Austin was winding down and they felt like they needed to do something different, something shocking. Part of the failure was bad luck. HHH had been built up as someone who could turn face. The Austin heel turn and alliance with HHH would have worked much better if HHH didn't tear his quad and turned face. After Hunter went down and Rock disappeared, they went the comedy route. I think the bigger mistake was making Angle a comedy character as well. I was always wonder how big Angle could have been as a legit American hero if he was a serious fighter instead of a guy who drank milk and looked goofy. Nobody could have predicted it, but 9/11 could have pushed a legit badass Kurt Angle over the top.

As for The Invasion, looking back I think WWE gets blasted unfairly for that booking. The WCW roster available to them was dogshit. In no way would it make sense for WWE to allow legit icons of the era to lose to guys like Booker T and DDP. Yeah they could have dumped money at the real stars, but doing so would have screwed up their own payroll. Oh Nash gets paid double and works half the dates, I want that too. Before you know you recreated WCW where the real stars don't go on the road. In the long run I honestly believe that would have crippled their business.

I know people like to put on their fantasy booking hats and pretend like things like money and morale are not important, but they are. So in my mind Vince made the right call long term. The other factor is people always say they should have let WCW come in and dominate WWE. But those people don't understand branding. WCW allowed their brand to be tarnished by the nWo. Nash talks a lot about how the booking at the time was to build more and more heat. Most so called experts say that's how WCW v WWE should have been booked. When you look at how little value the letters WCW had post nWo you will see Vince made the right long term call burying then.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

I understand both decisions. But in both cases, they were the wrong decisions.

As far as Austin goes, I get turning him heel as a wrestling character, opening up other opportunities. But there are intangibles being drastically ignored in all of it, namely that Austin wasn't just a wrestling character to a lot of people. At the time I even agreed with the move, but something about it killed the heart and soul of the company. Not just the bad luck of it all, but everything else as well.

Regardless of what stars you had, you can still book a decent angle instead of McMahon-athon. And slowly but surely, they could have signed more stars.... hell, they signed the nwo in 2002 not much long after the invasion was over.

What the problem was and still is, is a lack of patience and foresight.

[Big Vic]

I think they should have let Heyman be the leader of the invasion, keep Steph out of it and Shane could still "own" WCW but not do in ring promos (although I don't think he did many).

I think Austin should have turned heel at Mania 17 but instead of aligning with Vince give him a stunner too.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

And as far as "burying guys" being the right move. If you bury people, what good does beating anyone that is buried do for anyone? That is wrestling 101 CyNick. Come on, an all knowing god such as yourself should know these things

[Maluco]

I thought "jump the shark" was more something ludicrous or over the top that signalled the end of a particular show?

To stick with that definition, I will go with Warrior/Hogan in WCW and the infamous appearing in mirror. Not only was it sad and weird, but that fact that Hogan, fans and commentators could see Warrior but Bischoff couldn't, was baffling and showed where their writing was going at the time...

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead I understand both decisions. But in both cases, they were the wrong decisions. As far as Austin goes, I get turning him heel as a wrestling character, opening up other opportunities. But there are intangibles being drastically ignored in all of it, namely that Austin wasn't just a wrestling character to a lot of people. At the time I even agreed with the move, but something about it killed the heart and soul of the company. Not just the bad luck of it all, but everything else as well. Regardless of what stars you had, you can still book a decent angle instead of McMahon-athon. And slowly but surely, they could have signed more stars.... hell, they signed the nwo in 2002 not much long after the invasion was over. What the problem was and still is, is a lack of patience and foresight.

But like you said you thought turning him was a good idea. It was an era where everything moved quickly. Austin wasn't going to have a 10 year run on top as a babyface like Hogan. As it was they had maybe 2 years left with him. Again in hindsight it was a bad move. But I also remember reading the sheets and being on places like this and reading "its getting stale, glass breaks, stunners, austin vs vince". I think it didn't work primarily because Austin didn't have enough babyface stars to work with.

Sure they signed guys when their contracts were up or at a point where signing them wouldn't upset the applecart. It's all tied into the Invasion angle. How do you realistically put a WCW crew led by Booker T and DDP over guys like Austin, Rock, Taker, Hunter, etc. Not to mention the guys on the next tier like Jericho, Angle, Hardys, Benoit, etc. The only way to create a believable story was to utilize characters the audience already saw as stars (Austin, Steph, Shane, etc) and then hope a few of the new WCW talent would get over. Really it ended up only being Booker T who stood out as a legit upper mid card talent.

And even when they brought in guys slowly, you saw their warts. Steiner was a disaster. Scott Hall was a wreck. Hogan had to be sheltered. Goldberg was great but had limited dates and never seemed to like the business. They got a little bit of mileage out of everyone and it, but none of those guys really made a huge difference. It wasn't until Cena came along a few years later that the company was saved from spinning their wheels. I'm just not sure booking wise how you turn guys like Lance Storm and Kanyom into guys who could hang with Austin and Rock.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Big Vic I think they should have let Heyman be the leader of the invasion, keep Steph out of it and Shane could still "own" WCW but not do in ring promos (although I don't think he did many). I think Austin should have turned heel at Mania 17 but instead of aligning with Vince give him a stunner too.

Thing is Shane was over back then. Steph was just starting to get comfortable as a TV character in an authority figure. I hear your point, but I think they both added value.

Watch him and Vince at 17 and tell me he wasn't over. So it's not like he was some random cold character.

And Heyman was involved and brought real passion to some promos. So it's like you already had him there doing what you needed him to do.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Maluco I thought "jump the shark" was more something ludicrous or over the top that signalled the end of a particular show? To stick with that definition, I will go with Warrior/Hogan in WCW and the infamous appearing in mirror. Not only was it sad and weird, but that fact that Hogan, fans and commentators could see Warrior but Bischoff couldn't, was baffling and showed where their writing was going at the time...

I hated that too, but to play devils advocate that kind of stuff is done in movies and nobody bats an eye

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead And as far as "burying guys" being the right move. If you bury people, what good does beating anyone that is buried do for anyone? That is wrestling 101 CyNick. Come on, an all knowing god such as yourself should know these things

Sometimes it's necessary

At that time they had TONS of talent. They really didn't NEED anyone from WCW. All they needed was to put WCW on the shelf, brag about killing them off to show superiority, and organize their tape library for future profits. Any bonus money from a WWF V WCW on air program was bonus. Which they got from the Invasion PPV.

But this idea that a faction of guys led by guys like Lance Storm should do anything but go under is absurd to me. Like who would you have had go over Austin (inagine he was represting WWF) to establish WCW? There's nobody close to making sense in that side.

The reality is the war was won long before Mania 17. The fans knew that.

[Tom Guycott]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Totally understand that point of view. Saying he buries people shows a lack of understanding of the business.

OR it is one of those things where the more hyperbolic statement is the easier way (albeit incorrectly) to explain a situation. When most people say that, they don't necessarily mean John is being an asshole and politicking himself to remain on top. They mean him being booked to win all the fucking time is greatly aiding in the lack of perception of "upper tier" talent, as any steam "wrestler x" had hits a brick wall affer being fed to Cena.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Tom Guycott OR it is one of those things where the more hyperbolic statement is the easier way (albeit incorrectly) to explain a situation. When most people say that, they don't necessarily mean John is being an asshole and politicking himself to remain on top. They mean him being booked to win all the fucking time is greatly aiding in the lack of perception of "upper tier" talent, as any steam "wrestler x" had hits a brick wall affer being fed to Cena.

The word chosen was bury. If we're going to just use words incorrectly were going to have a tough time communicating.

But that aside, for the top babyface in the territory he loses a TON! So the statement is competely wrong.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Sometimes it's necessary At that time they had TONS of talent. They really didn't NEED anyone from WCW. All they needed was to put WCW on the shelf, brag about killing them off to show superiority, and organize their tape library for future profits. Any bonus money from a WWF V WCW on air program was bonus. Which they got from the Invasion PPV. But this idea that a faction of guys led by guys like Lance Storm should do anything but go under is absurd to me. Like who would you have had go over Austin (inagine he was represting WWF) to establish WCW? There's nobody close to making sense in that side. The reality is the war was won long before Mania 17. The fans knew that.

The angle clearly didn't work out for them because it ate shit. If you're just going to bury a bunch of guys then don't do the angle. There's lots of ways around how everything went other than just putting Lance Storm over Steve Austin clean, it just required some outside of the box thinking. Fact is, the product has never had the same amount of steam since, and it's really hard to argue that. I mean I'm sure you will, but it's not really debatable. X7 really was the apex. Vince lost his edge afterwards

[Big Vic]

They could have added a stip to a PPVevent where if the Alliance won they would hold ownership of smackdown (WCW Smackdown). Then you could do the brand split a bit sooner, have some people jump to WCW and hold off for a stronger invasion next year.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead The angle clearly didn't work out for them because it ate shit. If you're just going to bury a bunch of guys then don't do the angle. There's lots of ways around how everything went other than just putting Lance Storm over Steve Austin clean, it just required some outside of the box thinking. Fact is, the product has never had the same amount of steam since, and it's really hard to argue that. I mean I'm sure you will, but it's not really debatable. X7 really was the apex. Vince lost his edge afterwards

I don't think he lost any booking prowess. I think what happened is somewhere along the way he decided it was best to move the company in a more kid friendly direction. I mean if by having edge you mean he did the Satanism angles, Beaver Cleaver, and an angle centred around a man's penis being cut off, I'll take the stuff today thanks. At least I'm not embarrassed turning on the TV when its on.

The biggest difference to me is the performers were better and more importantly hungrier than most of the guys today. I've said this before but the Attitude Era was like having the 70s Montreal Canadiens and saying the coaching was superior. No, it's that the players were a bunch of hall of famers, which is nearly impossible to replicate. Look at the roster at WM 17 and look at the talent today and tell me the roster today is just as good.

The angles themselves, really not much different then compared to today. It's just now we don't have guys killing themselves with chairs and stupid falls, we don't have the bad language (which I admit i thought it was cool...of course I was 16 then), and we have girls being athletes rather than strip club wannabees. Maybe that was "edgy", but I'm an adult, I don't need my sports entertainment to be porn or a live action slasher flick.