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Old 11-23-2015, 09:46 AM   #1
The CyNick
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Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
The idea of Vince or HHH telling the truth is laughable lol. It WOULD make sense that the booking changed with the way the angle was booked.
What makes you say both guys are liars? Kinda harsh to just make accusations about people like that.

I'm guessing you know both guys, and they have lied to you on multiple occasions to lead you to that comment. Unless you're just pulling it out of your ass, which would be sad and pathetic.
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Old 11-23-2015, 09:55 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
What makes you say both guys are liars? Kinda harsh to just make accusations about people like that.

I'm guessing you know both guys, and they have lied to you on multiple occasions to lead you to that comment. Unless you're just pulling it out of your ass, which would be sad and pathetic.
lmao
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Old 11-23-2015, 09:57 AM   #3
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You yourself have claimed that Vince would never put all of his cards on the table... that would apply to everything, not just creative direction to wrestlers. I'm not saying they would lie because they are horrible liars (Which Vince is) but they wouldn't be forthcoming with the truth on a behind the scenes booking decision which would potentially make them look pretty bad and like a bunch of petty politicking dickheads. I personally don't know any high up corporate professional that is that up front about behind the scenes decisions.
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Old 11-23-2015, 10:16 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
You yourself have claimed that Vince would never put all of his cards on the table... that would apply to everything, not just creative direction to wrestlers. I'm not saying they would lie because they are horrible liars (Which Vince is) but they wouldn't be forthcoming with the truth on a behind the scenes booking decision which would potentially make them look pretty bad and like a bunch of petty politicking dickheads. I personally don't know any high up corporate professional that is that up front about behind the scenes decisions.
You're mixing things up.

I said if we want to know if the booking changed the day of, a good reporter would ask Vince, since it was his call to make. In theory you could ask HHH because the accusation is he's the one who lobbied the change.

You're response was even if we did that, you wouldn't trust Vince because he's a liar.

That's completely different from being a good businessman and holding your cards close to your chest in a negotiation. Not showing your cards is not being a liar, it's just good negotiation. You said he would outright lie if approached with a very specific question. That's a heck of an accusation on someone you likely have never spoken to much less know on a personal or professional level to be able to make such a judgement.
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Old 11-23-2015, 02:44 PM   #5
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You've got so many conflicting points in your posts. The small amount of losses Triple H took during his heel run has been brought up as a counterpoint to the shit they had Seth Rollins drudge through recently plenty of times. It is NOT a point for your case, so I would drop it.

The Booker vs. Batista thing? You seem to say that one being a major star and the other not is somehow indicative of their actual limits -- whereas we are saying that poor booking and presentation may have hampered Booker and aided Batista. That doesn't prove anyone right or wrong, but you can't take a guy that was booked amazing well and a guy that was booked tremendously bad and say "all things being as equal as they are" like it's a ghost of a point.

You say that guys like Goldberg weren't commited to the business. Sure, there might be truth to that -- but how much of his decision to leave the WWE as quickly as he did was BECAUSE the WWE were clearly fucking him up. Everyone thought so. People stopped watching.
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Old 11-23-2015, 03:57 PM   #6
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You've got so many conflicting points in your posts. The small amount of losses Triple H took during his heel run has been brought up as a counterpoint to the shit they had Seth Rollins drudge through recently plenty of times. It is NOT a point for your case, so I would drop it.

The Booker vs. Batista thing? You seem to say that one being a major star and the other not is somehow indicative of their actual limits -- whereas we are saying that poor booking and presentation may have hampered Booker and aided Batista. That doesn't prove anyone right or wrong, but you can't take a guy that was booked amazing well and a guy that was booked tremendously bad and say "all things being as equal as they are" like it's a ghost of a point.

You say that guys like Goldberg weren't commited to the business. Sure, there might be truth to that -- but how much of his decision to leave the WWE as quickly as he did was BECAUSE the WWE were clearly fucking him up. Everyone thought so. People stopped watching.
I'm not saying Rollins and Hunter were booked exactly the same. The initial point was Hunter never lost in 03-05 Thats utter crap. He lost the key matches. Guys like you are on about Rollins losing random TV non title matches that only you guys will remember in 5 years. Despite your claims that Rollins was crapped on, the fans chanted "thank you Rollins" when his injury was announced. So clearly WWE did a good job building him up to someone the fans care about.

Have you seen me try to change anyone's opinion about Booker T? I just always felt Batista was the overall better talent. If someone else thinks that if Booker T would have stood up to the racist HHH in 03, and been booked strong, he would have been seen as a modern day hero for the black community, and would have gotten over like crazy, that's cool. My main points are A) I had no problem with HHH going over the way he did and B) Batista ended up being not only the bigger star in the business, but appears to be in elite company of guys who will become Hollywood success stories.

I know Goldberg wasnt committed because I've heard him talk in interviews. He wasn't like John Cena looking to make every town and do all this extra stuff to help the company. And fair play to Goldberg, he was in a financial position where he could get by doing the bare minimum. But as a result, he was never going to be someone WWE built around long term. Imagine being a young John Cena seeing Goldberg as the top guy, working maybe once a week, not having great matches, and just mailing it in. Is that going to motivate you to bust your ass and make that radio gig in Des Moines at 8AM to push a house show?
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Old 11-23-2015, 06:56 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
I'm not saying Rollins and Hunter were booked exactly the same. The initial point was Hunter never lost in 03-05 Thats utter crap. He lost the key matches. Guys like you are on about Rollins losing random TV non title matches that only you guys will remember in 5 years. Despite your claims that Rollins was crapped on, the fans chanted "thank you Rollins" when his injury was announced. So clearly WWE did a good job building him up to someone the fans care about.

Have you seen me try to change anyone's opinion about Booker T? I just always felt Batista was the overall better talent. If someone else thinks that if Booker T would have stood up to the racist HHH in 03, and been booked strong, he would have been seen as a modern day hero for the black community, and would have gotten over like crazy, that's cool. My main points are A) I had no problem with HHH going over the way he did and B) Batista ended up being not only the bigger star in the business, but appears to be in elite company of guys who will become Hollywood success stories.

I know Goldberg wasnt committed because I've heard him talk in interviews. He wasn't like John Cena looking to make every town and do all this extra stuff to help the company. And fair play to Goldberg, he was in a financial position where he could get by doing the bare minimum. But as a result, he was never going to be someone WWE built around long term. Imagine being a young John Cena seeing Goldberg as the top guy, working maybe once a week, not having great matches, and just mailing it in. Is that going to motivate you to bust your ass and make that radio gig in Des Moines at 8AM to push a house show?
This post is full of that "one or the other" horse shit that is such a logical fallacy that it's not even worth replying to. This is where a Cornette face becomes appropriate.

Fans popped for Hardcore Holly when he came back from injury. Whoop-dee-fuck. He was booked shit, you're wrong. It's not even opinion. You can look at his actual win-loss record and statistically record how he performed as a champion. You can subjectively like Seth Rollins and his sports entertainment-style of losing as champion all you like; but you cannot argue that he was booked well without damaging your own integrity.
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Old 11-23-2015, 04:05 PM   #8
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Sidenote: While I detested seeing HHH steamroll over everybody he probably didn't think was worthy enough for him to suffer a loss to, I only lost it after he started beating people with a sleeper.
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Old 11-23-2015, 04:34 PM   #9
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Sidenote: While I detested seeing HHH steamroll over everybody he probably didn't think was worthy enough for him to suffer a loss to, I only lost it after he started beating people with a sleeper.
RNCs are the real deal.
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Old 11-23-2015, 04:12 PM   #10
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What is it with this Booker T being a hero to black people thing? Nobody(with a brain) likes a racist. It would've been heroic period.
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Old 11-23-2015, 04:33 PM   #11
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What is it with this Booker T being a hero to black people thing? Nobody(with a brain) likes a racist. It would've been heroic period.
Well everyone is taking about how because they used race, that meant Booker had to go over. Well if you tell that story, then the outcome should be Booker T stood up to the racism and overcame. The logical progression to that would be to sell Booker as a conquering hero to that community. Much like WWE took Lex Luger body slamming the evil foreigner and spun that into a patriotic gimmick for Luger. I think it would have been stupid, but I'm just following the logic people here are giving me.

What really happened was Booker lost because he is the inferior talent, and he went on to be a super successful upper mid card-low tier main event guy. Not too bad for someone who was left dead and buried by WWE and HHH at 19.
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Old 11-23-2015, 06:12 PM   #12
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The great thing about Internet forums is the ability they give people to air an opinion and have a meaningful and interesting discussion.

Sometimes, as is the case in this thread, there is no way to measure if an opinion is right or wrong - the fun is exploring different peoples point of view. You may disagree but that doesn't mean you're right. It would appear that The Cynick fails to grasp this. Mr The Cynick, I offer my apologies in advance if you do in fact grasp this but it's not the opinion I've formed having read some of what you've said here.

Now, in my opinion, I don't think Booker T should have gone over HHH. I do also think the build up should have been booked differently. That doesn't mean I'm right and I've enjoyed reading some of the conflicting opinions which is why it's a shame the thread has been turned into a "you're wrong" discussion, like many of the other potentially interesting topics of discussion on here.
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Old 11-23-2015, 06:42 PM   #13
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The great thing about Internet forums is the ability they give people to air an opinion and have a meaningful and interesting discussion.

Sometimes, as is the case in this thread, there is no way to measure if an opinion is right or wrong - the fun is exploring different peoples point of view. You may disagree but that doesn't mean you're right. It would appear that The Cynick fails to grasp this. Mr The Cynick, I offer my apologies in advance if you do in fact grasp this but it's not the opinion I've formed having read some of what you've said here.

Now, in my opinion, I don't think Booker T should have gone over HHH. I do also think the build up should have been booked differently. That doesn't mean I'm right and I've enjoyed reading some of the conflicting opinions which is why it's a shame the thread has been turned into a "you're wrong" discussion, like many of the other potentially interesting topics of discussion on here.
The title of this thread is asking me to defend my opinions on things. You may have missed that part when you stepped in. Dont go into the "I enjoy flowers" thread and get annoyed at reading about pedals.

I agree with you that Booker shouldn't have gone over, and I believe I posted in here that I didnt like the use of race in the angle. But its the direction they went in. I dont think it changes that the right call was for HHH to go over.
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Old 11-23-2015, 06:34 PM   #14
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Cynick's "father knows best" tone can grow a tad meandering, but it does tend to open up some conversation.
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Old 11-23-2015, 06:40 PM   #15
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He wasn't a focal point though, you're talking shite.
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Old 11-23-2015, 06:44 PM   #16
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He wasn't a focal point though, you're talking shite.
What was the focal point?
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Old 11-23-2015, 06:45 PM   #17
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HHH and Shawn Michaels for the most part.
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:12 PM   #18
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HHH and Shawn Michaels for the most part.
And Eugene!
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:18 PM   #19
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HHH and Shawn Michaels for the most part.
And Benoit beat one or both of them on three PPVs. Yet somehow he wasnt the focal point.
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:35 PM   #20
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And Benoit beat one or both of them on three PPVs. Yet somehow he wasnt the focal point.
I like how repeating exactly what happened in a sarcastic tone some how makes it not a fact.
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:01 PM   #21
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:11 PM   #22
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Remember even CyNick went to the source for that tweet he cited, only he didn't?

Also, did you guys know Triple H was pinned less than 10 times from the minute he won the title from Foley all the way through Backlash 2000? Two of those times Austin cost him the title.

I like how the losing champ argument went from "a heel can't win all the time or it'll turn him face" to "well Hunter lost the key matches".

Wanna know a key match? Summer Slam 03. Elimination Chamber that Goldberg dominates, the crowd hot for him to take the belt, only for him t lose to Triple H, who had taken a 30 minute nap.

Instead they waited to a lesser show, in a forgettable match nobody remembers.
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:23 PM   #23
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Remember even CyNick went to the source for that tweet he cited, only he didn't?

Also, did you guys know Triple H was pinned less than 10 times from the minute he won the title from Foley all the way through Backlash 2000? Two of those times Austin cost him the title.

I like how the losing champ argument why from "a heel can't win all the time or it'll turn him face" to "well Hunter lost the key matches".

Wanna know a key match? Summer Slam 03. Elimination Chamber that Goldberg dominates, the crowd hot for him to take the belt, only for him t lose to Triple H, who had taken a 30 minute nap.

Instead they waited to a lesser show, in a forgettable match nobody remembers.
Maybe it was a mistake, maybe it built heat. Point is, Hunter still put him over for the strap.

Do you really think it made a huge difference? Rock probably should have won the belt at 16, but he actually won the next month. Did that prevent Rock from being a massively over babyface? Did it prevent him from being the most recognizable talent in the company's history? Rock is talented, he made it work. If you really think Goldberg not winning at one PPV vs another made a difference, well, you are a card carrying member of the IWC.
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:32 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Maybe it was a mistake, maybe it built heat. Point is, Hunter still put him over for the strap.

Do you really think it made a huge difference? Rock probably should have won the belt at 16, but he actually won the next month. Did that prevent Rock from being a massively over babyface? Did it prevent him from being the most recognizable talent in the company's history? Rock is talented, he made it work. If you really think Goldberg not winning at one PPV vs another made a difference, well, you are a card carrying member of the IWC.
Or, you know, can see how business dipped after they did it.

P.S. Haha, I don't hate you. You're just a cunt.
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:36 PM   #25
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Or, you know, can see how business dipped after they did it.

P.S. Haha, I don't hate you. You're just a cunt.
So business was rising up until Summerslam, and then it went down right after?

I honestly dont remember, maybe it did.
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:39 PM   #26
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So business was rising up until Summerslam, and then it went down right after?

I honestly dont remember, maybe it did.
About 500,000 people tuned out.
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:54 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Maybe it was a mistake, maybe it built heat. Point is, Hunter still put him over for the strap.

Do you really think it made a huge difference? Rock probably should have won the belt at 16, but he actually won the next month. Did that prevent Rock from being a massively over babyface? Did it prevent him from being the most recognizable talent in the company's history? Rock is talented, he made it work. If you really think Goldberg not winning at one PPV vs another made a difference, well, you are a card carrying member of the IWC.
I like that you're dancing around the topic and trying to go off track. Nobody is bringing up how big of a star Rock was.

Of course when he lost matters, because you yourself pointed out that he lost the "key"matches, which isn't entirely the case. He walked out of two marquees main events as champ. Key matches don't happen at secondary events. Hunter won the big matches, then jobbed at the lesser show. Unless of course you consider backlash and whatever b show he lost to Goldberg on a key event.

You're also trying to dance around your original "heels can't win often" statement you used to defend the Rollins booking by saying "well Hunter won, but lost the key matches and lost a lot in his initial run", which is statistically false.

Your name should be SpiNick instead.
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Old 11-24-2015, 11:41 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Damian Rey View Post
I like that you're dancing around the topic and trying to go off track. Nobody is bringing up how big of a star Rock was.

Of course when he lost matters, because you yourself pointed out that he lost the "key"matches, which isn't entirely the case. He walked out of two marquees main events as champ. Key matches don't happen at secondary events. Hunter won the big matches, then jobbed at the lesser show. Unless of course you consider backlash and whatever b show he lost to Goldberg on a key event.

You're also trying to dance around your original "heels can't win often" statement you used to defend the Rollins booking by saying "well Hunter won, but lost the key matches and lost a lot in his initial run", which is statistically false.

Your name should be SpiNick instead.
Someone said Trips put off losing to Goldberg at the big show (Summerslam), in favor of another show. My response was they did that with Rocky in 2000 and it didn't impact his success one bit. My point is if Goldberg was going to be able to hold an audience, him winning the belt 4 weeks later would not have made a difference. Goldberg fizzled out just like he did in WCW because his act is a short term act. There's no sustainability to his gimmick.

Regarding the losing. My point with Rollins was he can't just dominate every babyface within the first 6 months of his reign. This was in n reference to losing matches primarily to Cena. Hunter was in a different position. In his first year after winning the belt, he not only lost matches, but he lost the belt to unworthy opponents. In the end, he got over, because he's talented. In the 03-05 timeframe he's a different type of champion, but even still, he was booked similarly to Rollins in that he defended the title against the B players (Kane, Ambrose, Booker, RVD) but lost to the A players (Goldberg, Batista, etc and then in Rollins case it would have been losing to Reigns).

I get it, HHH is the devil in these parts. You need someone to point to and blame the shortcomings of your favourites on.
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Old 11-24-2015, 12:02 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Someone said Trips put off losing to Goldberg at the big show (Summerslam), in favor of another show. My response was they did that with Rocky in 2000 and it didn't impact his success one bit. My point is if Goldberg was going to be able to hold an audience, him winning the belt 4 weeks later would not have made a difference. Goldberg fizzled out just like he did in WCW because his act is a short term act. There's no sustainability to his gimmick.

Regarding the losing. My point with Rollins was he can't just dominate every babyface within the first 6 months of his reign. This was in n reference to losing matches primarily to Cena. Hunter was in a different position. In his first year after winning the belt, he not only lost matches, but he lost the belt to unworthy opponents. In the end, he got over, because he's talented. In the 03-05 timeframe he's a different type of champion, but even still, he was booked similarly to Rollins in that he defended the title against the B players (Kane, Ambrose, Booker, RVD) but lost to the A players (Goldberg, Batista, etc and then in Rollins case it would have been losing to Reigns).

I get it, HHH is the devil in these parts. You need someone to point to and blame the shortcomings of your favourites on.
Christ. You said, above, Hunter lost the key matches. And you're wrong. He lost secondary matches after winning the big match hyped at the headline events. Stop beating around the bush. Everyone can see you wrote "key matches" and everyone knows the key matches happened at Summer Slam and Mania, not b shows.

You also pointed out that Hunter, supposedly, didn't go around dominating in his initial reign, which you were wrong about again. Hunter constantly got dq'd and was rarely pinned in his initial run, and two of those pins saw him being shafted and were far from clean.

You keep trying to change the subject but it's clear that because you're too lazy to fact check you're instead trying to pull info out of your ass and making false statements, only to back track and try and change direction of conversation.

Case in point, please point out something I've said blaming Hunter for beating a wrestler I like. Can you cite it? Or is it another one of your SpiNick tactics to distract others from calling you out on your forever changing stance.
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Old 11-24-2015, 08:34 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Someone said Trips put off losing to Goldberg at the big show (Summerslam), in favor of another show. My response was they did that with Rocky in 2000 and it didn't impact his success one bit. My point is if Goldberg was going to be able to hold an audience, him winning the belt 4 weeks later would not have made a difference. Goldberg fizzled out just like he did in WCW because his act is a short term act. There's no sustainability to his gimmick.

Regarding the losing. My point with Rollins was he can't just dominate every babyface within the first 6 months of his reign. This was in n reference to losing matches primarily to Cena. Hunter was in a different position. In his first year after winning the belt, he not only lost matches, but he lost the belt to unworthy opponents. In the end, he got over, because he's talented. In the 03-05 timeframe he's a different type of champion, but even still, he was booked similarly to Rollins in that he defended the title against the B players (Kane, Ambrose, Booker, RVD) but lost to the A players (Goldberg, Batista, etc and then in Rollins case it would have been losing to Reigns).

I get it, HHH is the devil in these parts. You need someone to point to and blame the shortcomings of your favourites on.
THERE'S NO SUSTAINABILITY IN THE GIMMICK ONCE YOU SHOOT IT IN THE HEAD FUCKING DEAD!!!!!
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:12 PM   #31
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Yeah, don't remember Triple H losing too many "key" matches. He beat Booker T in their key match; he beat Goldberg in their key match; he beat Randy Orton in their key match. That takes us through until Batista.
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:18 PM   #32
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You are a cunt, Gorgeous Dale is not. Real simple.
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:24 PM   #33
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You are a cunt, Gorgeous Dale is not. Real simple.
Most people of greatness are hated in their time.
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:25 PM   #34
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BTW I think its time for a new storyline
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:35 PM   #35
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BTW I think its time for a new storyline
Rey Misterio's terrible title run
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:38 PM   #36
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Rey Misterio's terrible title run
Good intention, Vince trying to do something nice, but Rey was just way too unbelievable as champion.

I think I kinda tuned out around that time so hard to comment.
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:48 PM   #37
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you are a card carrying member of the IWC.
Being a member of this forum pretty much makes you member of the IWC. Yes that means you too CyNick.
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:53 PM   #38
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what Simple Fan said
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Old 11-23-2015, 09:06 PM   #39
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Old 11-24-2015, 01:51 PM   #40
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Can you quote where I said that?

You said he lost a lot in his initial run. False. You said he lost "key" matches. False. Now you're trying to argue "well it didn't hurt business", which isn't the point.

You're arguing a point with yourself. You said Hunte lost like Rollins. Wrong. You said he lost key matches. Wrong. Everything else your spewing to avoid acknowledging that, including this new Wrestlemania malarkey you're now bringing up i is irrelevant.

Spin spin spin.
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