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Old 11-23-2015, 04:51 AM   #521
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After deciding to wait to see how Survivor Series panned out, I can honestly say that I am very glad I didn't watch and that Vince McMahon does not have my money.
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Old 11-23-2015, 04:56 AM   #522
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I do not hate Sheamus. The guy is a great worker and is a freak for his size. He's a safe pick for WWE Champion at a time when they don't have too many top stars. I think business was even okay under him in 2009 and 2010 when he was last WWE Champion. This still feels very boring to me though.

I'm trying to trick myself into liking it somehow. Sheamus is better than Reigns, technically. I like it when guys Sheamus' age get the title over a guy that's a few years too young for his prime, like Reigns. He's going to have some fun brawls with Reigns. But I do not give a fuck.

The "wins the title then loses it" shtick doesn't work for him, and it feels like it has marred Reigns to me. If they had gone with Ambrose winning the title, then Sheamus and Barrett jumping him and Reigns walking away as Sheamus cashed in? There's more of a hook coming out of that, Rollins & Ambrose both get WWE Title wins before Reigns, you have matches between Sheamus, Barrett and eventually Reigns on the table for Ambrose. Whatever.
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Old 11-23-2015, 05:24 AM   #523
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The Reigns winning/Sheamus cash-in actually makes real good sense on paper. The actual story being told is sound. It's just an issue of a story no one wants to read.
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Old 11-23-2015, 05:26 AM   #524
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Really not a fan of briefcase finishes.
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Old 11-23-2015, 05:29 AM   #525
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It really does seem like a cheap gimmick. I would personally give the stipulation a rest. I think it's done fine for itself with a ten year run, but it's time to move back into more sports-based booking and something less gimmicky.
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Old 11-23-2015, 05:36 AM   #526
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They're probably going to have Roman Reigns be the guy that puts his body on the line to try and grab the belt at Tables, Ladders & Chairs, in the match that lends its name to the event. Alberto Del Rio will probably defend the US Title against John Cena. Dean Ambrose vs. King Barrett or Kevin Owens would make some sense. I think they have to put Sasha Banks in the Divas Title match in Boston. The card is taking shape, but it doesn't feel very exciting.
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Old 11-23-2015, 08:17 AM   #527
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Just read through the thread and Theo Dious sounds like an edgy CyNick.
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Old 11-23-2015, 09:14 AM   #528
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Didn't see the show, but reading the results I'm glad they stuck with the long term plan of Reigns as a face and didn't do something rash like turn someone just for the sake of it.

I personally am not a huge fan of the win and then cash in right away, but at the same time, that's the whole point of having MITB. Heels are going to take that opportunity. Curious how long Sheamus holds on. I'm guessing at most till the Rumble, which will bridge whatever they had planned before Seth went down.

Lot of hilarious belly aching about the Taker match. It's comedy at this point how little some of you guys understand about marketing. I'm just curious what they are building towards for Taker at Mania.

Can't really comment on the Divas title match, but the right finish was picked. Charlotte really needs to tell her family to shut up about her storylines if she wants to prove she's a team player. That said, I'm glad they appeared to correct the mistake of the whole Reid thing from Monday. I hope they just focus the girls on trying to win the belt, not who can be the biggest cunt.
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Old 11-23-2015, 09:24 AM   #529
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If I recall correctly they didn't bother to mention the Reid promo at all. I actually enjoyed their match very much. Agree that Charlotte going over was the right way.

I think everyone knew Taker was winning. That's a given. Not even an issue. I'd of rather have had Wyatt not be involved in the actual match to stretch out the rivalry a bit but it was no big deal. Actually thought it was a good match.

I don't mind the long term plan of Romanas the face of the company. It's clear that's where he's going and he's improved quite a bit the least year. I was impressed with his overall performance last night, and accepted and to an extent embraced the idea of face Roman carrying the title to Mania.

However, I'm just not into Sheamus. I don't find him interesting and he hasn't done anything particularly significant since winning MITB. He's got no momentum at this juncture, and unlike, Rollins, who very much had months and months of build by the time he cashed in, Sheamus has just meandered around without purpose.

Just underwhelming.
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Old 11-23-2015, 10:05 AM   #530
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Definitely underwhelming

Cesaro, KO, Bray, Ambrose, and even Reigns turning heel would have been better.
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Old 11-23-2015, 10:30 AM   #531
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Agree about Sheamus. He's just seemed to be in a holding pattern until they put the belt on him. I think he will be more intetesting now that he's aligned with HHH and has the belt.

Starting to think Sheamus vs HHH might be a direction they head into for Mania.
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Old 11-23-2015, 10:41 AM   #532
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HHH v.s. Sheamus already happened like 5 years ago, I don't imagine they'd waste a HHH on that. HHH v.s. The Rock would be the better route
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Old 11-23-2015, 10:48 AM   #533
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HHH v.s. Sheamus already happened like 5 years ago, I don't imagine they'd waste a HHH on that. HHH v.s. The Rock would be the better route
Oh wow, forgot about that.

Of course Rock is better, no guarantee they have him for the show though.
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Old 11-23-2015, 10:50 AM   #534
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That's just me hoping for my own dream match to see Live. Much respect to Sheamus, but I don't want him facing top tier at a WrestleMania I'm attending unless he is fighting an up and comer like Owens or Ambrose.
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Old 11-23-2015, 12:09 PM   #535
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I dont understanf how Reigns is supposed to be the good guy in this scenario. He assaulted the COO of the company for seemingly no reason. He wasn't attacked or even provoked. The way it panned out, it seemed like Reigns assaulted somebody that was trying to congratulate him, and karma came back to bite him with the MITB scenario. Roman Reigns, stop being a jerk. You jerk.
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Old 11-23-2015, 01:22 PM   #536
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Old 11-23-2015, 02:39 PM   #537
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Sheamus' cash-in should've backfired in the match, imo. They could've done this to put Reigns over as much as they have been planning to. I'm not feeling up for a feud between these two. Now Owens vs. Reigns would have made more sense, and even Del Rio despite his recent arrival, but Sheamus was given no development whatsoever for this occasion. I'm just not sure how it could work out as a decent writing job.
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Old 11-23-2015, 02:43 PM   #538
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Quote:
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I dont understanf how Reigns is supposed to be the good guy in this scenario. He assaulted the COO of the company for seemingly no reason. He wasn't attacked or even provoked. The way it panned out, it seemed like Reigns assaulted somebody that was trying to congratulate him, and karma came back to bite him with the MITB scenario. Roman Reigns, stop being a jerk. You jerk.


from kayfabe, Reigns knew that a HHH handshake would lead to a Daniel Bryan treat and that's why he speared him. I'm a HHH fan and popped when he got speared, it was different. It was Roman showing some character. I think they should have let him carry it for one or two RAWs. Don't agree with the decision, but I have to wait and see what they do with this.
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Old 11-23-2015, 02:49 PM   #539
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Roman Reigns will not be accepted as a top face until he turns heel. They will present him as such, they will sell his shirts and action figures, he will win a lot of World Titles; but he will never be what he could truly be.
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Old 11-23-2015, 03:06 PM   #540
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Well he got the John Cena patented "let's go Roman/Roman sucks" chants. Clearly he's on his way to taking Cena's place. He's already taken his chants.
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Old 11-23-2015, 03:29 PM   #541
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Roman Reigns will not be accepted as a top face until he turns heel. They will present him as such, they will sell his shirts and action figures, he will win a lot of World Titles; but he will never be what he could truly be.
Imagine if Jim Cornette was booking. Oh man he would get him over big time.

Instead I bet WWE just ends up doing their lame crap and he ends up selling more stuff than anyone but Cena.
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Old 11-23-2015, 03:30 PM   #542
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Well he got the John Cena patented "let's go Roman/Roman sucks" chants. Clearly he's on his way to taking Cena's place. He's already taken his chants.
The people chanting let's go Roman and buying his stuff are plants hired by WWE

The real truth is out there.
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Old 11-23-2015, 03:40 PM   #543
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I dont understanf how Reigns is supposed to be the good guy in this scenario. He assaulted the COO of the company for seemingly no reason. He wasn't attacked or even provoked. The way it panned out, it seemed like Reigns assaulted somebody that was trying to congratulate him, and karma came back to bite him with the MITB scenario. Roman Reigns, stop being a jerk. You jerk.
If only there was some sort of podcast where you could discuss this on.
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Old 11-23-2015, 04:11 PM   #544
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To be a polarizing figure such as Cena isn't a bad thing, and being the company's chosen guy isn't a bad thing and neither of those things are Cena's or Reign's fault. At the end of the day there's no doubting Reigns is a talented guy and with time will grow as a performer. I just think the writing misses the mark and doesn't have their finger on the pulse. That's not to say they can't be successful with this, but something about it really lacks the oomph that makes wrestling awesome.
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Old 11-23-2015, 04:20 PM   #545
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To be a polarizing figure such as Cena isn't a bad thing, and being the company's chosen guy isn't a bad thing and neither of those things are Cena's or Reign's fault. At the end of the day there's no doubting Reigns is a talented guy and with time will grow as a performer. I just think the writing misses the mark and doesn't have their finger on the pulse. That's not to say they can't be successful with this, but something about it really lacks the oomph that makes wrestling awesome.
I feel like people throw that pulse thing around. But who determines the pulse? The 15% off the audience that are loud and we're the same people dancing like Fandango the day after Mania? Does that mean WWE would have been smart to go all in on Fandango?

Cesaro is I guess the Internet darling, and Vince at one point did seem to be lukewarm on him. But now you were starting to see them focus on him more. On TV they were awknowledging the Cesaro Section signs to help grow that. Similar to what they did with Bryan and the Yes chants. Is that not an example of listening to the crowd and giving the talent the chance to run with it to see how far they can go?
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Old 11-23-2015, 04:38 PM   #546
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
The people chanting let's go Roman and buying his stuff are plants hired by WWE

The real truth is out there.
And by that I'm sure you mean actual plants situated throughout the crowd with recorders hidden in their soil playing a loop of "lets go roman"


Seriously though Reigns being a heel to a face Ambrose would have been a better outtcome especially because he'd be aligned with people who can talk for him(it does wonders for Brock) and he'd basically go back to his role in the Shield as a silent badass which worked CRAZY well for him.Right now all Roman has is a look to him he has been good in the ring but its not enough for him some people just need more to them than others.
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Old 11-23-2015, 04:38 PM   #547
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
The people chanting let's go Roman and buying his stuff are plants hired by WWE

The real truth is out there.
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Old 11-23-2015, 04:42 PM   #548
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Originally Posted by KIRA View Post
And by that I'm sure you mean actual plants situated throughout the crowd with recorders hidden in their soil playing a loop of "lets go roman"


Seriously though Reigns being a heel to a face Ambrose would have been a better outtcome especially because he'd be aligned with people who can talk for him(it does wonders for Brock) and he'd basically go back to his role in the Shield as a silent badass which worked CRAZY well for him.Right now all Roman has is a look to him he has been good in the ring but its not enough for him some people just need more to them than others.
Reigns is more valuable as a babyface. He needs to get better at certain things to hit the heights they expect him to hit. That's up to the talent though. If he never gets over like they expect, you can always turn him down the line.
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Old 11-23-2015, 05:04 PM   #549
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
I feel like people throw that pulse thing around. But who determines the pulse? The 15% off the audience that are loud and we're the same people dancing like Fandango the day after Mania? Does that mean WWE would have been smart to go all in on Fandango?

Cesaro is I guess the Internet darling, and Vince at one point did seem to be lukewarm on him. But now you were starting to see them focus on him more. On TV they were awknowledging the Cesaro Section signs to help grow that. Similar to what they did with Bryan and the Yes chants. Is that not an example of listening to the crowd and giving the talent the chance to run with it to see how far they can go?
We can talk about "the pulse" without bringing up Cesaro or Daniel Bryan. I'm talking about giving it that real sheen of power. Where you feel goosebumps and are really invested in a moment, which there was a while that it seemed like it happened all of the time. Cool shit just always seemed to happen, and it was largely because it was organic. It's no longer organic, so it ceases to have its finger on the pulse because it's so robotic. You say the current crop of guys doesn't take enough onus on themselves, I say the writers should have a little more sense and idea of what will really and truly be a wonderful and fulfilling product vs. another Monday Night RAW that will hopefully be competent enough and fill enough time and space to make them enough money on ad revenue and sponsorships etc... which they certainly are doing quite successfully.

Whether they can do that with Daniel Bryan, or they can do that with Hornswoggle I'm down.
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Old 11-23-2015, 05:19 PM   #550
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According to Dave Meltzer on the Wrestling Observer Radio, the decision to make Sheamus the champion was decided just hours before the show. The reason was that they did not want fans to boo Reigns as the champion and felt that would cheer for him while booing Sheamus as the champion
Reminds me of the time with Brock's 2nd match back against Triple H that ended with Triple H tapping. WWE likely legit thought the fans would rally behind Triple H in the post-match sympathy/respect moment and instead the crowd just shat on it. Even tried the same moment the next night and the crowd still didn't go for it since they liked Lesnar way more.

Not surprised they'd backfire again with Reigns who ended up getting booed more than Sheamus. Sheamus got the "crowd doesn't care" type reaction after a while which is just as bad.
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Old 11-23-2015, 05:23 PM   #551
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I don't understand how they don't see Reigns turning is the way to go. They already WANT to hate the guy, give them a reason. Have him not say a word during the heel run, then when he eventually turns, it'll be fresh.
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Old 11-23-2015, 05:47 PM   #552
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Originally Posted by Shadrick View Post
I don't understand how they don't see Reigns turning is the way to go. They already WANT to hate the guy, give them a reason. Have him not say a word during the heel run, then when he eventually turns, it'll be fresh.
This. I don't understand why they want Reigns as a face . He sucks at it and would fit in great as the silent badass heel. I'm mean Cena had a great heel run before he became a star, same as the Rock. Did Vince all the sudden forget how to create stars. If they have the WWE universe a reason to hate the guy he would probably get more hrat than Rollins.
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Old 11-23-2015, 05:50 PM   #553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
We can talk about "the pulse" without bringing up Cesaro or Daniel Bryan. I'm talking about giving it that real sheen of power. Where you feel goosebumps and are really invested in a moment, which there was a while that it seemed like it happened all of the time. Cool shit just always seemed to happen, and it was largely because it was organic. It's no longer organic, so it ceases to have its finger on the pulse because it's so robotic. You say the current crop of guys doesn't take enough onus on themselves, I say the writers should have a little more sense and idea of what will really and truly be a wonderful and fulfilling product vs. another Monday Night RAW that will hopefully be competent enough and fill enough time and space to make them enough money on ad revenue and sponsorships etc... which they certainly are doing quite successfully.

Whether they can do that with Daniel Bryan, or they can do that with Hornswoggle I'm down.
Yeah I dunno, I just feel like there have been really cool moments in recent history. Daniel Bryan doing the turn in the cage was a cool moment, and then watching him win the title was as satisfying an angle as Ive ever seen. Brock-Taker pull apart from a few months ago was awesome. A lot of the stuff with The Shield and Wyatt Family was cool. I find Mania to feel like more of a special event now vs the heyday of The Attitude Era.

I think one difference from then to now is that there was a ton of things done for the first time. But in doing so much, a lot of the stuff now doesn't come off as cool because its been done before.
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Old 11-23-2015, 05:52 PM   #554
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Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball View Post
Reminds me of the time with Brock's 2nd match back against Triple H that ended with Triple H tapping. WWE likely legit thought the fans would rally behind Triple H in the post-match sympathy/respect moment and instead the crowd just shat on it. Even tried the same moment the next night and the crowd still didn't go for it since they liked Lesnar way more.

Not surprised they'd backfire again with Reigns who ended up getting booed more than Sheamus. Sheamus got the "crowd doesn't care" type reaction after a while which is just as bad.
I know Dave is a well respected "reporter", but who is his source on saying the decision was made just hours before the show. Maybe because he was incorrectly reporting that the decision was still being made on whether to have Ambrose or Reigns leave with the gold.

I know, plans change.
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Old 11-23-2015, 06:02 PM   #555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
I feel like people throw that pulse thing around. But who determines the pulse? The 15% off the audience that are loud and we're the same people dancing like Fandango the day after Mania? Does that mean WWE would have been smart to go all in on Fandango?
You say this in a demeaning way, but the answer is actually yes. Incredibly smart. They were even starting to come around to the idea before they mistakenly sent out Jerry Lawler to cool dad him, thinking that would keep him hot, and then Zack Ryder kicked him really hard in the head and we got a directionless, out of nowhere Curtis Axel push instead. Curtis Axel, a guy who <1% of the audience cared about at that time and only truly managed to get over about a year and a half after his big push failed.

Fandango should be an upper midcard guy right now and Johnny Curtis the performer is good enough to justify it. If he does well enough in that position he actually has the look and charisma to transition to a main event role, just not the gimmick. He's still one of the most over guys at UK / European house shows even though he's been solid jobbing on superstars for 8 months. It's entertainment, you give the people more of what they like rather than shoving stuff down their throats and telling them "no, you will like this instead you fucking ungrateful pricks!".

Zack Ryder would have been a much better example for your case, and even then, that guy could have been a valuable commodity for a good period of business instead of being absolutely buried beyond repair just because he had the gall to get over without permission.
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Old 11-23-2015, 06:11 PM   #556
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Originally Posted by Ultra Mantis View Post
You say this in a demeaning way, but the answer is actually yes. Incredibly smart. They were even starting to come around to the idea before they mistakenly sent out Jerry Lawler to cool dad him, thinking that would keep him hot, and then Zack Ryder kicked him really hard in the head and we got a directionless, out of nowhere Curtis Axel push instead. Curtis Axel, a guy who <1% of the audience cared about at that time and only truly managed to get over about a year and a half after his big push failed.
Axel is great. I'll be a < 1% er
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Old 11-23-2015, 06:14 PM   #557
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Yeah I dunno, I just feel like there have been really cool moments in recent history. Daniel Bryan doing the turn in the cage was a cool moment, and then watching him win the title was as satisfying an angle as Ive ever seen. Brock-Taker pull apart from a few months ago was awesome. A lot of the stuff with The Shield and Wyatt Family was cool. I find Mania to feel like more of a special event now vs the heyday of The Attitude Era.

I think one difference from then to now is that there was a ton of things done for the first time. But in doing so much, a lot of the stuff now doesn't come off as cool because its been done before.
Well I'm sure you've seen me put over all of those guys before. Yeah there's some nice moments, it's just not consistent. That isn't to say you need bone chilling moments every show because you don't. What you need is real direction and consistency, and not running hot and cold with a vital lack of continuity.

What I'm saying, is what happens is those moments turn into stand alone moments, usually not capitalized upon vs. becoming truly iconic, like some of the moments of our yesteryear.

The "it's all been done" excuse is played out, as there's always new wrinkles to add.
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Old 11-23-2015, 06:24 PM   #558
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Originally Posted by Simple Fan View Post
Axel is great. I'll be a < 1% er
I'm not even knocking Axel, just the whole "oh by the way, Michael McGillicutty is now going to replace Brock as Heyman's client and main event Raw against HHH then win the IC title with no build" thing was dumb as fuck and did nothing to help him get over. AxelMania added a few percents to his stock.
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Old 11-23-2015, 06:29 PM   #559
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Originally Posted by Ultra Mantis View Post
You say this in a demeaning way, but the answer is actually yes. Incredibly smart. They were even starting to come around to the idea before they mistakenly sent out Jerry Lawler to cool dad him, thinking that would keep him hot, and then Zack Ryder kicked him really hard in the head and we got a directionless, out of nowhere Curtis Axel push instead. Curtis Axel, a guy who <1% of the audience cared about at that time and only truly managed to get over about a year and a half after his big push failed.

Fandango should be an upper midcard guy right now and Johnny Curtis the performer is good enough to justify it. If he does well enough in that position he actually has the look and charisma to transition to a main event role, just not the gimmick. He's still one of the most over guys at UK / European house shows even though he's been solid jobbing on superstars for 8 months. It's entertainment, you give the people more of what they like rather than shoving stuff down their throats and telling them "no, you will like this instead you fucking ungrateful pricks!".

Zack Ryder would have been a much better example for your case, and even then, that guy could have been a valuable commodity for a good period of business instead of being absolutely buried beyond repair just because he had the gall to get over without permission.
Shocking you dont understand when a guy is being laughed at not laughed with.
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Old 11-23-2015, 06:33 PM   #560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
Well I'm sure you've seen me put over all of those guys before. Yeah there's some nice moments, it's just not consistent. That isn't to say you need bone chilling moments every show because you don't. What you need is real direction and consistency, and not running hot and cold with a vital lack of continuity.

What I'm saying, is what happens is those moments turn into stand alone moments, usually not capitalized upon vs. becoming truly iconic, like some of the moments of our yesteryear.

The "it's all been done" excuse is played out, as there's always new wrinkles to add.
We'll go down a rabbit hole on the directionless bit. To me there has been a clear direction for years. Its not like people confuse not liking the direction with having no direction.
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