Star Wars - SPOILERS INSIDE

[Reavant]

Originally Posted by Wishbone My attempt at debating some of Reavant's points. SPOILER: show The story did feel small, but that was on purpose. Re-watch episode 4 and you really get the same feeling. Sure, the Deathstar seems like a huge threat on paper, but think about it. Leia didn't even seem all that upset about watching her home planet get blown up. She just sorta sighs. No sobbing, no screaming, just a "well that fucking sucks". It looked like she found out her goldfish died rather than watching billions of people and everyone she ever knew or loved get vaporized. And even when they fight the Deathstar they don't send much of a fleet. Just like this movie the attack consists of a few X-Wings and that's about it. It wasn't until episode 6 that we got a truly grand feeling Deathstar battle. Did you honestly care when Alderaan blew up? I can honestly say I've never met anyone who did. Sure, Leia was from there, but we as the audience had no real connection to it. It was just there. And like I said in my last paragraph Leia didn't exactly sell it. Hell, she just sorta forgot about it almost immediately and it's never brought up again. Kylo was too nerdy in my honest opinion. The temper tantrums were laughable. Like seriously it felt like a SNL sketch spoofing Star Wars sometimes when he did that shit. I mean I laughed, but you shouldn't be laughing at the guy who's supposed to be your big villain in a movie like this. It was like watching an 80's cartoon most of the time. I will say though that it's not a problem if they're going somewhere with it. If he evolves from this over time thanks to his training with Snoke then I'll be totally behind it. The idea of a whiny little bitch turning into a badass machine of death is actually a good one, and is what Darth Vader was supposed to be. However, the prequels fucked all that up and Anakin never got the big payoff that should have come from it. Hopefully that's what they're doing with Kylo and it pays off. The Han death scene I'll give you, but I don't think it was bad. Predictable =/= bad automatically. I feel like they did a good enough job of making it interesting, and I will give them credit for legitimately making me HATE Kylo Ren with a passion. Like I legit cheered out loud when Chewie shot the little bastard. I'll definitely be happy to see him die at the end of all this which is something I can't say I've felt for a bad guy in a movie in a long time. Good on them. Finn's emotion (or lack thereof) over being a Stormtrooper is kinda understandable. 1) Star Wars isn't exactly known for showing lots of emotion in the first place (see Leia and Alderaan). 2) He was a Stormtrooper for literally 1 day. The dude was seeing his first combat ever and saw what was probably his only friend in the world die in front of him. It's totally understandable that he'd turncoat on the First Order when he never had any real connection to them in the first place. I'm honestly surprised more Stormtroopers didn't/don't turn. Rey is mysterious for a reason. We're almost certainly learning more about her in the sequel movie. This wasn't meant to tell you everything. This is the first chapter in a series, not a stand alone movie. If they gave everything away now they'd have nothing to give us later. I'm assuming you mean what happened to Poe after they crashed on Jakku, yes? Well, he tells us. He woke up in the desert after being ejected just like Finn was. Probably found a radio or something and had the Resistance send him a ship to pick him up. Pretty simple. If you mean where did he come from in the first place, well, why does that matter? We never find out much about Han Solo outside "he was a smuggler and pissed off Jaba" and finding even that much out took 3 movies. Like with Rey I say just give it time. They'll probably explain more about him later in another movie. Remember we're getting at least 2 more main series movies and a bunch of spin-off movies too. Hell, they could do an entire movie on each of the three main characters if they wanted, and they probably will. As for Starkiller base and the comparisons to Episode 4, well, yeah that's exactly how it was. You're either gonna hate that or love it. I feel like they did just enough to make things feel fresh while also keeping a lot of familiar elements to give us that nostalgia feeling. And don't forget that George Lucas once said in an interview that he intended for the trilogies to "mirror" each other. I feel like Abrams was just trying to live up to that but in a good way instead of the shit way Lucas did with the prequels.

Given the hype machine and history behind this, I suppose I expected more. I get the mirroring to the other prequels, but I was hoping for more of a resemblance, not reflection.

This brings me to my point on the death star. Acting in general was not the same as it is now especially in this genera so leave that out of it. However that was the first time an audience has seen something like that. A ship blow up an entire planet. So yea people cared if nothing other than it was shocking. This time there was not that factor and again no consequence. No jedis grabbing their chest, no ships coming out of hyperspace into a bunch of rocks, Nothing. The death star blowing up alderan put the cards on the table as to what the empire was all about. Other than more planets going down, nothing felt different.

You start off talking about Kylo like he is the big bad. Now he kind of is, but he is not there yet, and they tried to make that obvious. Theres nothing wrong with laughing at him and his actions. He is an angry child. That makes him interesting because of the potential he has in the future.

The death scene was shit. It was like watching a death row guy walk down the green mile. you knew what was going to eventually happen, but it was taking forever. Then, you had all the characters just watching it all go down without doing anything until it happened. Im sorry but it would make sense to me if they at least tried to get him to turn the fuck around. Then he killed him without remorse. I liked that he got shot too, but ugh whatevs.

The first order leader talked up how his brainwashing was perfect. Ok cool, but then you need to explain why fin dropped it the second he saw his friend's blood. Its not that emotion needs to be shown, but something. It doesn't matter if he had been a storm trooper 1 day or 20 years. They harp on the brainwashing so why is he different. Is it force sensitivity? explain or at least allude to something.

Yes rey is intentionally mysterious. One thing that irritated me was how fin was lying to her about being in the resistance, but when it came time to fess up to her, she was like ok yea no big deal. Now obviously it would have been cliché to have her be furious at him, but I feel like JJ abrams just pencil whipped the reaction to get over that plot point.

I mean the crash in Jakku. It was just "heres po in his xwing" yea he gives the explanation briefly but still it was slightly irritating.

I get that the trilogies like to mirror the plot, but the reason the originals were so cool was that they showed us things we have not seen before. They were ground breaking and I wanted them to mirror that here. Again, I expected more.

[Wishbone]

Originally Posted by Reavant Given the hype machine and history behind this, I suppose I expected more. I get the mirroring to the other prequels, but I was hoping for more of a resemblance, not reflection. This brings me to my point on the death star. Acting in general was not the same as it is now especially in this genera so leave that out of it. However that was the first time an audience has seen something like that. A ship blow up an entire planet. So yea people cared if nothing other than it was shocking. This time there was not that factor and again no consequence. No jedis grabbing their chest, no ships coming out of hyperspace into a bunch of rocks, Nothing. The death star blowing up alderan put the cards on the table as to what the empire was all about. Other than more planets going down, nothing felt different. You start off talking about Kylo like he is the big bad. Now he kind of is, but he is not there yet, and they tried to make that obvious. Theres nothing wrong with laughing at him and his actions. He is an angry child. That makes him interesting because of the potential he has in the future. The death scene was shit. It was like watching a death row guy walk down the green mile. you knew what was going to eventually happen, but it was taking forever. Then, you had all the characters just watching it all go down without doing anything until it happened. Im sorry but it would make sense to me if they at least tried to get him to turn the fuck around. Then he killed him without remorse. I liked that he got shot too, but ugh whatevs. The first order leader talked up how his brainwashing was perfect. Ok cool, but then you need to explain why fin dropped it the second he saw his friend's blood. Its not that emotion needs to be shown, but something. It doesn't matter if he had been a storm trooper 1 day or 20 years. They harp on the brainwashing so why is he different. Is it force sensitivity? explain or at least allude to something. Yes rey is intentionally mysterious. One thing that irritated me was how fin was lying to her about being in the resistance, but when it came time to fess up to her, she was like ok yea no big deal. Now obviously it would have been cliché to have her be furious at him, but I feel like JJ abrams just pencil whipped the reaction to get over that plot point. I mean the crash in Jakku. It was just "heres po in his xwing" yea he gives the explanation briefly but still it was slightly irritating. I get that the trilogies like to mirror the plot, but the reason the originals were so cool was that they showed us things we have not seen before. They were ground breaking and I wanted them to mirror that here. Again, I expected more.

Honestly the only reason the Deathstar scene was "bigger" was because, as you said, it hadn't been seen before. Now pretty much every Sci-Fi movie has a planet destroying thingamajig in it. I mean it's just kinda impossible to get the same reaction from people when they've seen something before. It's like seeing a magic trick or hearing a joke. The first time it's great, but every time you see it after it's gonna lose more and more punch. They did the best they could by making the stakes bigger with a whole system instead of a single planet, but even if they had given us more reason to care it wouldn't have mattered because we're all pretty jaded now. We've seen billions of people die in pretty much every blockbuster movie released over the last 20 years. It's old news. The only way I could see it actually having any real impact would be if they'd had them destroy a planet that a major character was on, and if they'd done that it would have hurt the plot. Han was already gonna die, and they clearly have something planned for Leia. I just don't think they could have done what you're asking in one movie. Maybe if they waited to show us Starkiller base until movie 2 or 3 I guess.

I totally get that, and that's why I said that Kylo could potentially have a great payoff and be a good villain. However, based solely on what we got in this movie he was pretty much shit. Like if this was it and we never got another movie then Kylo would basically go down as the worst villain in recent memory. Of course this isn't the end, but I'm just saying. Plus we don't know if that really is where he's planned to go. I mean the prequels managed to fuck that whole thing up so I think it's understandable to be a little weary of it happening again.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the Han death scene. Personally it was tear jerking for me, and I had already had it ruined for me before seeing the movie. It wasn't about the surprise of it, but rather it was about the act itself. We knew and loved this character. Han was a part of anyone who grew up with the original trilogy's life. Seeing him die, no matter how it happened, was heartbreaking because it was like losing an old friend. And what made it worse was that we were losing that old friend after just getting him back after 30 years of waiting.

Sure, the order did talk a lot about their brainwashing being perfect, but just because someone claims something is true doesn't mean it is. I mean it would have been nice to maybe see a bit more development or something, but it's not really that farfetched to believe that someone would just break after entering real combat. My older brother was in the military. Growing up he was uber patriotic just like my dad, but after seeing real combat he became a lot more jaded. He didn't desert or anything like Fin did, but even to this day he doesn't have that same sort of "America!" zeal he used to, and he was actually expecting to go into combat from day one. From the way Fin talks he was a janitor and whipping boy for most of his early career. Honestly it sounds like he was never really all that supportive of the First Order in the first place, and honestly it seems like a lot of them weren't. Even the leaders of the Order broke when shit hit the fan. Anyone who was really that brainwashed would have rather died than turn off those shields, and any commander who believed that strongly in the cause would have gone down with his ship (or base in this case) instead of abandoning it. I mean it just doesn't seem like the First Order are really anywhere near as loyal or "brainwashed" as they claim to be. I think that line was really just more of a showing of bravado rather than any kind of actual truth.

Fin lying to Rey wasn't all that big of a deal in my opinion. I mean I guess she could have been a little more angry, but honestly given what they had just gone through together, and the fact that he'd helped her thus far so much I think it was perfectly acceptable that she didn't care. I mean, shit, if I had just stolen a legendary spaceship, escaped an evil order of space Nazis, met Han freakin' Solo, and escaped death by tentacle monster with someone who stood by me through all of it I'd be pretty understanding of a little lie like that. It's like, so what if he's not with the resistance? Dude's still a loyal friend that clearly has my back.

I will concede that I wouldn't have minded a little more from Po, but given the length of the movie I think anything with him explaining Jakku more would have just been a waste. I mean I'd rather they cut that then cut something that did make it into the movie. Like I said it probably wasn't that big of an adventure anyway. Probably just him wandering the desert for a day or so, finding a town, and then borrowing someone's radio to call for help.

Overall I don't fault you for being a little disappointed though. I mean they did hype the hell out of this. I never fell for the hype though. Honestly I wasn't impressed at all with any of the trailers or anything. I went into this expecting virtually nothing. Like I almost had lower hopes for this than I did for episode 3 simply because at least with episode 3 I knew I was getting shit. With this I wasn't sure what I was getting. So for me going in with zero expectations I came out hugely surprised with what I did get. I think most of your feelings probably stem from being over hyped for this than anything.