"Major RAW/SummerSlam Spoiler"

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Innovator fuck yeah he would have, lame finisher or not

Well, that's the thing. You didn't have to wrestle in the 80s.

I brought in Lara because she was one of those peope that kept saying Orton kept getting shoved down our throats in the begginning and now she is seeing that he actually isn't all that bad. Just used her as an example. Even other people on this board who extremely hated Orton before are saying the same thing.

Yes, he got shoved down our throats in the begginning to get him over. Got that.

Now, he's over and is getting cheered because he's good. You have to give credit when credit is due. If he was still the same Orton like 6 months ago, people wouldn't give a shit about him. He's improved greatly.

[Lara Emily]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon Look, I'm not going to start calling you names or anything. I'm making the argument based on what I'm seeing on TV and on PPV. Orton is getting cheered against the babyfaces. Cheering usually means that people like you. People might of gotten tired of Orton being shoved down our throats in the begginning, but now they're starting to come around. It's not a "miracle" at all that he's over. Orton has been improving ever since he turned heel and people see that. Orton got over because he's good in the ring and he has a good presence. I'm not being ignorant because the facts are right in front of you. If the fans didn't like him, they would give him no reponse at all. If that was the case, I would agree with you, but it's not. Hell, even Lara, who hated Orton in the begginning, says he's getting good. And it's hard for me to say Orton is still green. Because if you say he's green, you're kind of putting him in the same catagory as guys like Tomko, Cade, Luther etc.. Now, those guys are what I consider Green.

Hello???? I never hated Orton.I just hated and still hate the god like hype and status he's been given.

[Kane Knight]

He's not gonna let your own words get you in the way of what he wanted to hear you say though. He's a fanboy with a hardon for shunting away logic like a lightning rod.

[Innovator]

hate hate hate hate hate hate

[Kane Knight]

By the way, since you're too much of a retard to have noted the numerous times I have given Orton praise, I'll just point it out for you yet again.

I know, it's a tinfoil hat conspiracy. Everyone who doesn't circlejerk with your and Randy is against you. Against Orton, BAHGAWD!

Again, you stop to egojerk Orton with a stupid statement which is both ignorant and irrelevent.

[Lara Emily]

Let me further clarify, I have and still do find Orton's oush to be too much too soon, a World title will just rocket that to a whole new level. I have never ever said that Orton sucks, merely that I feel he is slight overrated and currently overpushed, to put it short he is not the wrestling god a lot of people say he is. I even further point out much of my dislike of Orton stems from the oversutarion of Orton posts on this board and the general worship he gets. It grates on my nerves.

Look: I'm a reatrd, a fuckwit and a full of shit fanboy. All for saying Orton was over right now. That's all I'm trying to say. Right Now, he's arguably the most over babyface on Raw and he's a heel. Just ask CyNick, he'll tell you. And I know people respect CyNick on this board. If they don't keep pushing Orton, the WWE is pretty retarded. What, are they just going to sit back and let all this momentum he's got going with him go to waste?

Lara, I really thought you hated Orton with all of your neative posts towards him in the beginning. It seemed like you despised him.

[Kane Knight]

No, all for making an argument against what I was saying, by trying to prove it with irrelevent points.

But why would I expect you to even get that right? Why ruin a perfect streak of not getting it? Martyr yourself, fanboy. That's right. I'm nailing you up to the cross because I hate Randy Orton. Really. IT's really true, and not some black helicopter fantasy of yours.

ok, "I don't know what the hell you just said" (Kurt Angle) Not to sound like an ass, but I seriously just lost you there. Martyr myself? I know Lara didn't really have anything to do with out argument like you said, but what does Martyring myself and balck helicopers have to do with it?

Orton got shoved down our throats in the begginning to get over with the fans: YES

Is he over now with the fans after about a year of pushing him? Yes

Should he be World champ? NO

Should they continue to push him to the moon? Yes

WHY? Bceause that's what the fans want as heard by there cheering for him.

That's all.

[Kane Knight]

Not to sound like an asshole...

A little late for that. You misrepresent my statements, bring up irrelevent lines and bullshit that leaves me wondering if you're even on the same wavelength, use his overness now as an argument that it's any less a miracle the fans didn't totally give up on him...

...But why let the facts get in the way?

They shouldn't push Orton past his means to sustain himself.

It's still possible to shoot his load now. You yourself said they shouldn't give him the title, which clearly shows that they should, on some level, limit the radical push. I don't think you grasp how self-contradictory your own statements are.

Pushing wrestlers is like marketing. in fact, it IS marketing. I've studied music, an entertainment business, enough to know that when you "push" a band to far too fast, people will wear on them. Oversaturation of a market is still a threat even after the first hit single, gold record, etc.

Don't push Orton to the moon.

Find an orbit where the fans can still buy him.

Wow. He got cheers against a guy with no real current peronsality or gimmick. Must prove he should be pushed really hard.

But you know what? I hope they do overpush Randy.

Then he'll be yesterdays news and we won't have to hear you egojerk him every nine seconds. That's assuming you can avoid killing yourself when he's downgraded after his 15 minutes of fame.

And another talent wasted, which will make the WWE par for the course.

So yeah, let's be stupid and push orton to the moon! That'll be especially good for Orton fans if they blow it or push him too hard! You'll really benefit then.

He got cheers against Benjamin and got cheers against Foley. So, you can't just bring Edge into this. Also, why are you taking personnal attacks on me for. This is about Orton, not me. I won't be killing myself if Orton gets depushed and is downgraded. Let's be real now. I see why people don't like arguing with you, because you just take shots at people calling them stupid and calling them morons if they don't agree with you.


You say I bring up irrelevent lines. But, like I said, what does black hellicopters and Martying myself have to do with this? You keep taking shots at me when I'm trying to be reasonable by stating what I'm seeing on TV and reading about in the newsletters. Orton is getting cheered at Raw, cheered at PPV's, cheered at House shows and that's all I'm saying.

I've already established that he was shoved down our throats. But, what can you do about it? Depush him while he's got a lot of momentum? They've got to push him right now.

Now, does push him to the moon mean a World Title at Summerslam? No, it doesn't. He just needs to be kept strong and be protected. Let's face it, Orton's not going anywhere. He's going to be around for a while. If he's not, I will literally be shocked. And you can quote that if you want. Orton is the WWE's next star, just like Cena. And Cena's getting pushed to the moon on Smackdown right now, so it's not like the WWE is just concentrating on Orton.

When Rock was getting cheered as a heel, they pushed him to the moon and gave him the World Title real quick. Not to say Orton is the Rock, cause he's not, but it has happened before and it has worked.

[mrslackalack]

I cant wait for a Cena-Orton match and they almost wrestled at a OVW show this year!!!!!

[The CyNick]

You know Ive read good points on both sides of this issue (even though I think you guys are pretty much on the same wave length), I just think the personal crap should stop.

Here's my two cents:

I dont really think Orton to this point has been "pushed down our throats". He started out as an arrogant babyface, took some lumps against guys like HBK and then eventually got the IC title. Slowly from there he's been worked into main event programs, mostly because of the stuff with Foley. Now they are at a point where they feel he is getting cheers (BTW its not just the PPV matches, but even at house shows most reports were saying he was getting big pops fromt he crowds) and since they need new stars, he's the right guy to push to the next level.

Unfortunately there isn't a litmus test you can give a guy to see if its the right time to push them all the way to the top. When Rock won the title I dont think the fans were expecting it, and at first he didn't seem to fit as World Champ, but eventually he was accepted as a top guy (mostly to do with Foley making him look like a killer). At that time Rock was pushed down our throats, but it worked.

Same thing basically happened with Hunter. When he first got the strap in 99 he looked like a second tier champion (I think that was because Austin didn't bother to put him over), but eventually and again thanks to Foley he got over. And like Rock, Hunter was shoved so far down our throats his nose was wiping our collective asses. But again, like Rock it worked, he drew a ton of money for the company.

One could argue there hasn't really been a champion who got pushed like that since Hunter (well Brock was for a time), and maybe but probably not coincidentally they didn't draw like the previous champions did. I'm of the belief if you want someone new to be the top guy they should become the focal point of the shows, no questions asked. But then you risk the fans turning on that person, and ruining their ability to draw in the future. Like I said though, nobody can know forsure what is the right time to pull the trigger, its a gamble.

But I will agree that it is possible to push a guy too much, thus far I dont think that has happened with Orton, but I could see it happening if he wins the title at Summerslam. However, at the same time, it might be nice to see someone get pushed to the moon besides Hunter.

CyNick, thank you. This is why you're one of my favorite posters on this board. You are the man.

[BigDaddyCool]

but orton sucks so bad. He has no charisma.

[Kane Knight]

You can say that he wasn't force fed to us, but I think enough people have said that he was that it can be safe to assume the common fan was affected by it.

That being said, amongst my friends, he still has X-Pac heat. Then again, consider a couple of my friends wanted to jkill me for hoping Edge lost...

Still. I didn't invent the notion of Orton being "Shoved down our throats." A ton of people have said that they're pissed with this. It doesn't matter how skilled you are in bed if no-one'll sleep with you, and it doesn't matter how good you're getting on the mic if people think of you in the same sense as Waltman. I've used it as an argument because it has been a common enough sentiment.

See, I don't see how you can say he has "X-pac heat" though. X-pac got booed because people were sick of him. Orton is getting cheered, even at house shows. I don't know if you watched Raw, but in that interview right before his match with Edge, people popped as soon as they saw him.

If people were sick of Orton, they wouldn't be cheering for him right?

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Loose Cannon See, I don't see how you can say he has "X-pac heat" though. X-pac got booed because people were sick of him. Orton is getting cheered, even at house shows. I don't know if you watched Raw, but in that interview right before his match with Edge, people popped as soon as they saw him. If people were sick of Orton, they wouldn't be cheering for him right?

Again, I'm talking past tense.

I don't understand how you can really be stupid enough to think that words like was translate into "currently is."

From what I can tell, you have no salient point which actually contradicts me in any way shape or form, and are only arguing on the grounds that "OMG HE DOESNT UNCONDITIONALLY WORSHIP RANDY CHRIST!!!!!!!!!!!"

Yes. He's getting cheered NOW. Lucky break, because he was BORING people. People didn't want to see him on TV. Some still don't, though clearly a smaller number.

Now, let me try this a little slower, junior.

Randy.

Orton.

Getting.

Cheered.

Now.

Has.

No.

Effect.

On.

People's

Reactions.

Earlier.

Or.

Whether.

He.

Was.

Shoved.

Down.

Our.

Throats.

Is.

This.

Slow.

Enough.

For.

You.

To.

Absorb.

The.

Point.

Before.

Spouting.

Off.

Some.

Irrelevent.

Shit.

Or.

Worthless.

Argument.

That.

He's.

Popular.

When.

Going.

Up.

Against.

A.

Man.

With.

No.

Personality?

A doorstop would get cheers against edge because he's had no gimmick and no direction.

When he can get massive pops against people who have something more than "I just got back from an injury" pops, or if he can continue to get pops, that'll be one thing.

However, it STILL WON'T CHANGE WHETHER HE WAS SHOVED DOWN OUR THROATS IN THE PAST OR WHETHER OR NOT HE GOT X-PAC HEAT.


Pushing him to the moon turned what should be a simple proposition of pushing a naturally charismatic superstar into an uphill struggle against the fans they turned off with oversaturation.

[The Naitch]

I wonder if Randy would've done well if he didn't have Evolution?

lol. You put "still has" in your last post when referencing X-pac heat. To me, that's the present tense. I don't know though, I could be wrong. But, if you're talking past, then yeah, I totally agree with you that he was shoved down our throats and he might of had X-pac heat in the begginning.

But, that was then and this is now. So, let's talk about the present. People don't bring up the fact that the Rock was shoved down our throats when he was getting booed as a babyface who was the I.C. Champ, do they? It really doesn't matter whether wrestlers get shoved down our throats in the begginning, if it works, then all is good.

Time will only tell if it will work with Orton, but I'm willing to bet that it will.

[The Naitch]

Evolution will pass Orton by.

[The CyNick]

I've never really understood how to decifer "X-Pac heat" from good heat. I mean the only thing I can think of is to look at his TV numbers, and I dont recall ever reading that people were turning off the TV in droves when he came on. Still though, some people may have felt that, but I wans't one of them.

And I wouldn't use responses on this board as a way to judge what the common fan thinks. We are hardly "common fans", I dont think common fans would get into discussions about every minute detail about wrestling like we do. Now if you hear from some casual friends thats a different story, but like I said this board is not a representation of the regualr joe out there.