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Old 11-24-2016, 04:04 PM   #1
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Originally Posted by Destor View Post
Gotta call foul. There a lot going on during punks run. Not least of all Cena chasing the title. And then there's The rock as well. Couple that with the linchpin of the argument being battlegrounds buyrate completely ignoring the fact that there was nothing of meaning on the show. Everyone knew that show wouldnt effect mania at all. Hardly evidence of anything.

Id argue that punk pulled in departed hardcore fans that had moved on to being full time indy fans. Not casuals.
You could pick apart anybody's "drawing power" like that. Diesel is known as one of the worst draws in WWF history but he was on top when the show was top-to-bottom garbage.
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Old 11-25-2016, 06:50 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Destor View Post
Id argue that punk pulled in departed hardcore fans that had moved on to being full time indy fans. Not casuals.
Yeah, you're probably right, but he made an uptick of viewers in general and a lot of that analysis also focused on the whole year when his appeal had already been squashed at Summerslam. If he did have more mainstream appeal, that was all turned off within a month.

I think the whole 50/50 booking thing is driving away casual fans. What's the point in the weekly shows? Since the brand split, Smackdown has gotten better at this, but it doesn't matter who won on Raw at all since it doesn't advance anything. The only people tuning in will be these hoping for a good match.
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Old 11-24-2016, 12:42 PM   #3
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Punk oozes charisma and is somewhat believable in the ring.
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Old 11-24-2016, 01:01 PM   #4
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Agreed with Stickman. I fully expect the main event wrestlers to be in better shape than me or be like Braun/Kane type of big. I should never feel I can take on the world champ. I should feel like the guy would destroy me.
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Old 11-24-2016, 03:54 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickman View Post
I think casual fans are turned off when they think they could beat up the wrestler. All these short skinny fat neckbeard wreslters don't translate to the casual fan. WWE is a live action cartoon/comic book. Who wants to grab a comicbook whose superhero is a regular joe? Hardcare fans do maybe.
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Originally Posted by Ruien View Post
Agreed with Stickman. I fully expect the main event wrestlers to be in better shape than me or be like Braun/Kane type of big. I should never feel I can take on the world champ. I should feel like the guy would destroy me.
Exactly. Wrestling is at its best when it's larger than life. There's nothing larger than life about most of the guys the typical smark want to be stars. They're guys who will please the smarks but do nothing to bring in casual fans. And the smarks are going to watch anyway. It doesn't make sense to cater to them at the expense of building stars who can draw in a new audience.
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Old 11-27-2016, 03:10 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruien View Post
Agreed with Stickman. I fully expect the main event wrestlers to be in better shape than me or be like Braun/Kane type of big. I should never feel I can take on the world champ. I should feel like the guy would destroy me.
The problem I see with this point of view is that it becomes an arms race of believability, for lack of a better term. Who's going to beat this monster? A bigger monster. And bigger. And bigger. And so it goes until you get to an area where you've cut the nuts off of finding any sort of actual, viable threat, because you need your "championship material" to be nearly 7 feet tall, 350lbs of "look the shit" muscles, and hope to the old gods and the new they can actually perform and talk.

There was too much stock into the "larger than life actual superhero" to where it turned into a pigeonhole.

Meanwhile, over the years, they have gotten farther away from actually making people give a shit about people UNLESS the company thinks you should give a shit. Reigns is a great example of what is now wasted opportunity. They were so dead set on crowning him "The New Cena", that they missed the opportunity to have a monster heel that could possibly hage been poised for that face turn by now. They were so focused on him heading to Mania a couple of years back, but didn't really make a case, build a lore, or otherwise give fans any reason why they should want to have this guy be the headliner they pay to see.

The industry has made a weird "full circle". Nearly everyone watching wrestling as a fan at this point *knows* it is fake, but are willing to suspend the disbelief to accept things that only make sense in the realm of pro wrestling. One of those things is going back to appreciation for people who can put on great matches with psychology and all that shit, and having "a good look" is icing on the cake.

AJ Styles is an amazimg talent, and it is archaic and stupid to assume he should job or be relegated to spot monkey cruiserweight status simply because he isn't built like Scott Steiner. I'm not the hugest Steen fan in the world, but what is the difference between him and an in-his-prime Vader? Vader was barrel-tummied and chicken legged, but he just had wrestling world acceptable ring attire and not dressed like someone who bought a ticket.

If the guy is billed and represented to be someone who can hurt you, and can sell the fact he can hurt you, it shouldn't matter if he looks like a roid freak or is just taller than most people.

I'd still buy Harley Race could kick my ass. I never saw such fear from the akwardly lanky Khali.
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Old 11-27-2016, 03:44 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Guycott View Post
The problem I see with this point of view is that it becomes an arms race of believability, for lack of a better term. Who's going to beat this monster? A bigger monster. And bigger. And bigger. And so it goes until you get to an area where you've cut the nuts off of finding any sort of actual, viable threat, because you need your "championship material" to be nearly 7 feet tall, 350lbs of "look the shit" muscles, and hope to the old gods and the new they can actually perform and talk.

There was too much stock into the "larger than life actual superhero" to where it turned into a pigeonhole.

Meanwhile, over the years, they have gotten farther away from actually making people give a shit about people UNLESS the company thinks you should give a shit. Reigns is a great example of what is now wasted opportunity. They were so dead set on crowning him "The New Cena", that they missed the opportunity to have a monster heel that could possibly hage been poised for that face turn by now. They were so focused on him heading to Mania a couple of years back, but didn't really make a case, build a lore, or otherwise give fans any reason why they should want to have this guy be the headliner they pay to see.

The industry has made a weird "full circle". Nearly everyone watching wrestling as a fan at this point *knows* it is fake, but are willing to suspend the disbelief to accept things that only make sense in the realm of pro wrestling. One of those things is going back to appreciation for people who can put on great matches with psychology and all that shit, and having "a good look" is icing on the cake.

AJ Styles is an amazimg talent, and it is archaic and stupid to assume he should job or be relegated to spot monkey cruiserweight status simply because he isn't built like Scott Steiner. I'm not the hugest Steen fan in the world, but what is the difference between him and an in-his-prime Vader? Vader was barrel-tummied and chicken legged, but he just had wrestling world acceptable ring attire and not dressed like someone who bought a ticket.

If the guy is billed and represented to be someone who can hurt you, and can sell the fact he can hurt you, it shouldn't matter if he looks like a roid freak or is just taller than most people.

I'd still buy Harley Race could kick my ass. I never saw such fear from the akwardly lanky Khali.
You missed the whole point of AJ being the Y2J of this era. You missed the point of wanting a variety. Your missed the point of having different expectations.

Is Steen the person as Owens? I think so but want to make sure. I don't remember anything about Vader so no idea. Just remember he sat on people.
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Old 11-24-2016, 01:37 PM   #8
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Exactly
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Old 11-24-2016, 03:31 PM   #9
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I would agree. CM Punk brought this stupid era on us.
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:04 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Ruien View Post
I would agree. CM Punk brought this stupid era on us.
I think the real blame is WWE making everything be about social media. Tout, Twitter, Facebook etc.
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Old 11-27-2016, 01:39 PM   #11
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Reading through here /wrestling forum is confusing. You have guys who dont like Cena,Reigns, Styles,Lesnar, Owens. Zayn, Balor, Ambrose etc I could go on. So tell me who you would like the belts on, who do you want people to cheer etc for?

Do we really want to go back to Marc Henry headlining PPV's , I feel like sometimes people just like to bitch and moan for the sake of it and will always moan against who is being pushed and moan that someone else isn't being pushed. Then start moaning that that guy is being pushed.

I don't know, I think the product is pretty strong at the moment. I think it didn't help Owens that HHH helped him win the belt and then just disappeared off the screens with no explanation , then they gave more screen time to Jericho who is made to look the stronger out of the two. From what I've seen of Owens I enjoy him in the ring and on the mic.
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Old 11-28-2016, 09:07 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Danny Electric View Post
Reading through here /wrestling forum is confusing. You have guys who dont like Cena,Reigns, Styles,Lesnar, Owens. Zayn, Balor, Ambrose etc I could go on. So tell me who you would like the belts on, who do you want people to cheer etc for?

Do we really want to go back to Marc Henry headlining PPV's , I feel like sometimes people just like to bitch and moan for the sake of it and will always moan against who is being pushed and moan that someone else isn't being pushed. Then start moaning that that guy is being pushed.

I don't know, I think the product is pretty strong at the moment. I think it didn't help Owens that HHH helped him win the belt and then just disappeared off the screens with no explanation , then they gave more screen time to Jericho who is made to look the stronger out of the two. From what I've seen of Owens I enjoy him in the ring and on the mic.
People will always have differing opinions, the idea that there is a concensus IWC mindest is patently wrong. It is a little difficult to sometimes marry individual thought processes together; there's a lot of "this is what I like so I reckon everybody else will love it", and a lot of presumption about that the casual fan wants versus what the hardcore fan wants.

Hate to pick on Noid again, but he's a key example of somebody you would have said was a typical IWC wrestling fan, who has now evolved to see "the bigger picture". He will have you believe that the product isn't as hot because of the vast majority of guys on the roster being very "everyman" rather than these "larger than life superheroes", yet will advocate that Shinsuke Nakamura is the next big star who should be brought up for a feud with HHH at Mania. I don't see it myself, and I can't see how the 2 streams of thought can exist in the same mind.

I also question how much the casual fan cares about things like psychology and selling, or whether these are things that longtime fans project on to other parts of the (potential) fan base. (Also don't quite get how you can call for the return of real-life superheroes yet bemoan a superhero-like comeback).

Don't get me wrong, psychology can add to a match, and makes the experience far more emersive if you know what you're looking for (look at the 2-out-of-3 Falls Tag Match at NXT Toronto, for example) but I think the importance to the casual fan is probably overstated.

Some elements of the IWC like to think of themselves about it all; they can see the strings and they love to let you know about it. "If you can't see what they were doing with the no-match between Lesnar and Goldberg then you don't understand the business" is a key theme that's been doing the rounds. JR on his podcast pretty much says this, he likens it to the NWA Champ dropping a fall in a tag match, stating that it's something that worked then so it should work today, completely ignoring the fact that what worked with limited/territory coverage has been used for the last 30 years and at this point it so transparant that it's laughable.

For me, you can dislike the Lesnar/Goldberg result because you can see the strings; another rehash at Mania. A match we've seen before, that will likely not benefit the longterm progress of the brand; Goldberg and Lesnar will likely be gone post-Mania anyway, and any heat/rub taken with them.

There's also rumours of an Orton/Taker match; another rehash, where nobody gains anything. Scratch that. Orton could beat Taker, to put himself in that bracket with Lesnar to set up a rematch between those two, but, well, another rematch.

I can pick apart 100 things that WWE do that don't make sense, but I don't think fixing those will be an instant fix to the ratings slump.
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Old 11-28-2016, 07:15 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XL View Post
People will always have differing opinions, the idea that there is a concensus IWC mindest is patently wrong. It is a little difficult to sometimes marry individual thought processes together; there's a lot of "this is what I like so I reckon everybody else will love it", and a lot of presumption about that the casual fan wants versus what the hardcore fan wants.

Hate to pick on Noid again, but he's a key example of somebody you would have said was a typical IWC wrestling fan, who has now evolved to see "the bigger picture". He will have you believe that the product isn't as hot because of the vast majority of guys on the roster being very "everyman" rather than these "larger than life superheroes", yet will advocate that Shinsuke Nakamura is the next big star who should be brought up for a feud with HHH at Mania. I don't see it myself, and I can't see how the 2 streams of thought can exist in the same mind.

I also question how much the casual fan cares about things like psychology and selling, or whether these are things that longtime fans project on to other parts of the (potential) fan base. (Also don't quite get how you can call for the return of real-life superheroes yet bemoan a superhero-like comeback).

Don't get me wrong, psychology can add to a match, and makes the experience far more emersive if you know what you're looking for (look at the 2-out-of-3 Falls Tag Match at NXT Toronto, for example) but I think the importance to the casual fan is probably overstated.

Some elements of the IWC like to think of themselves about it all; they can see the strings and they love to let you know about it. "If you can't see what they were doing with the no-match between Lesnar and Goldberg then you don't understand the business" is a key theme that's been doing the rounds. JR on his podcast pretty much says this, he likens it to the NWA Champ dropping a fall in a tag match, stating that it's something that worked then so it should work today, completely ignoring the fact that what worked with limited/territory coverage has been used for the last 30 years and at this point it so transparant that it's laughable.

For me, you can dislike the Lesnar/Goldberg result because you can see the strings; another rehash at Mania. A match we've seen before, that will likely not benefit the longterm progress of the brand; Goldberg and Lesnar will likely be gone post-Mania anyway, and any heat/rub taken with them.

There's also rumours of an Orton/Taker match; another rehash, where nobody gains anything. Scratch that. Orton could beat Taker, to put himself in that bracket with Lesnar to set up a rematch between those two, but, well, another rematch.

I can pick apart 100 things that WWE do that don't make sense, but I don't think fixing those will be an instant fix to the ratings slump.
I love you, XL.

That being said, while we disagree on the specifics, I think we agree on the larger philosophical point.

I confess all the time to being a typical internet mark. I used to think Paul London was the best wrestler in the world, etc. A few things have started clicking in my mind. Hearing lots of smart people talk about the psychology behind booking and the industry in general, as well as just being a fan for years has turned me into a different sort of mark. I'm not longer a guy that thinks what I like is going to be what others like -- it's now that I look for things that others might like and try to determine why. It's like a mental maths puzzle, and I find that infinitely more stimulating than the current product.

When it comes to Nakamura, I think you've got one of the few guys in wrestling with star-level charisma. I'm realizing now that the guy isn't bulletproof, and I actually worry about his WWE run now. The more they try to get him to work the WWE style, the more I think "Well, he's not special anymore." I would present Nakamura as a big deal though. Have him show up on PPV and Kinshasa someone. Rinse, wash, repeat.

We differ on the psychology point, because I think it is UNDERSTATED how much psychology matters. I don't think people "look" for it, but I think when it's not there they lose interest. It's an intuition thing. And that's a large part of why ratings are so low at the moment. None of the guys working today know how to work like a Shawn Michaels, Mick Foley or Steve Austin. Or if they do, they certainly don't put it into practice.

I'm completely convinced on the Goldberg thing, by the way. I heard someone criticizing it and talking about Goldberg's cardio and how he's too old to have longer matches. Lol, why would you want Goldberg to have longer matches? It's insane to me. I also think Brock losing makes him more interesting; not less. Brock has actually lost a lot -- even since he broke the streak. He lost to Cena at Night of Champions, he lost to Seth Rollins at WrestleMania, he lost to The Undertaker at SummerSlam, and he lost in the Royal Rumble. His WrestleMania record since returning is 2-2-1. Brock is a complete professional wrestler in that he knows how to not only sell winning, but sell losing in a way that, as people say, "wins and losses don't matter." They do matter, but you can make losing matter too. Brock has ALWAYS been good at that. Goldberg...not so much.

Truth be told, I'd put Goldberg over Brock at WrestleMania again. Everyone is expecting the Brock gets his win back over Goldberg "it was nice while it lasted" shtick. Nah, go with Goldberg being Brock's kryptonite.

I'm completely with you on the Undertaker/Orton thing. That being said, because I don't really give a fuck anymore, I don't have a problem with it. Ideally, you would put someone over Taker that you'd then go and put over Brock, but whatever -- if Taker wants to do the Orton stuff, let him do the Orton stuff. At this point, as bland as I often find Randy, he's one of the closest things you have to a star, so you might as well give him some rarefied air, even if it's just so he can keep RKOing people and people think it's just that little bit more special. I have a feeling we're heading towards Undertaker vs. Cena and Orton & Bray vs. American Alpha at WrestleMania now though. So there's that.
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Old 11-24-2016, 06:16 PM   #14
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I was a big fan of Punk at the time, but was he as good as everybody is making him out to be? Was the pipe-bomb even that good a promo, or was it just that it came along in a sea of scripted bullshit? I mean, The Miz cut one good promo on Talking Smack and people were comparing it to "Hard Times." Jeez.

Punk vs. Jeff Hardy is one of my favorite feuds of the past decade, and I've never been a big Jeff Hardy fan. Those two were perfect rivals for each other though. I thought Punk's commentary run while he was injured was brilliant, and I wanted to see him go against John Cena, but his other stuff really fell flat. Punk could play well against extremely popular and charismatic babyfaces that could keep up in the ring and work to his style. His ring work as a babyface was really quite dull and repetitive (that spin into the swinging neckbreaker, the bulldog, the elbow off the top -- fucking hell), and it was all carried by how hot he got after one promo.

It was booked to shithouse, don't get me wrong. Triple H should have turned heel and been the Vince McMahon to Punk's Austin. Kevin Nash should have been nowhere near Punk or Triple H at this point in time (he should have been the bodyguard to Christian). But in retrospect, there's a reason that Punk/Jericho didn't go on last over Cena/Rock, and we can all recognize it in the pits of our stomachs. CM Punk and Chris Jericho just don't add up to being stars of the same magnitude. Punk arguably should have been the hottest act in the mid-card.

I honestly don't really miss him at all. The matches we haven't seen aren't enough to really make me wish he was around. Even the potential promos aren't making me wet, because the only pay-off to them are matches, and I'm not too keen on seeing those.

Color Commentator Punk only.
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Old 11-24-2016, 06:22 PM   #15
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Casual fans started bolting when Stephanie McMahon took over creative. She wasn't the only driving force. Vince McMahon's ego put her in that spot and a lot of the WWF's ego during the Invasion killed a lot of interest there dead. The Undertaker deserves a lot of blame for that.
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Old 11-24-2016, 06:54 PM   #16
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Remember when The Rock came back and stood toe to toe to Cena and he made Cena look small? Cena does look like a champ but these stars from yesteryear were stars, guys today not so nuch. I think a big part of it is also charisma and understanding how to sell. Guys showing emotion and intensity helps the believability as well. Watch the Rocks facial expressions when he wresltes, watch Stone Cold, HHH, Goldberg, Lesner. These guys looked pissed off and are there for a fight. I think thats one reason why Cena and Reigns had a hard time connecting, it doesn't seem sincere.

I actually do buy Owens as a champ. Sure he isn't built great but he is built like that guy who picked on you in highschoool. He acts like that bully who picked on you. He has charisma, he can sell the opponents moveset but can sell his own moves also. He looks smug in the ring, he looks like he is there for a fight, and he does look like he could beat you up, but you want to see him get beat up. Him as a face champ would not work, definitely works as a heel.
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Old 11-24-2016, 08:16 PM   #17
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Remember when The Rock came back and stood toe to toe to Cena and he made Cena look small? Cena does look like a champ but these stars from yesteryear were stars, guys today not so nuch. I think a big part of it is also charisma and understanding how to sell. Guys showing emotion and intensity helps the believability as well. Watch the Rocks facial expressions when he wresltes, watch Stone Cold, HHH, Goldberg, Lesner. These guys looked pissed off and are there for a fight. I think thats one reason why Cena and Reigns had a hard time connecting, it doesn't seem sincere.

I actually do buy Owens as a champ. Sure he isn't built great but he is built like that guy who picked on you in highschoool. He acts like that bully who picked on you. He has charisma, he can sell the opponents moveset but can sell his own moves also. He looks smug in the ring, he looks like he is there for a fight, and he does look like he could beat you up, but you want to see him get beat up. Him as a face champ would not work, definitely works as a heel.
Lol, Owens is shorter than 6'0. He acts like the fat kid who mutters something under his breath and then shies away when you confront him about it.

Good for a weedy heel, don't get me wrong, but I don't get where this "tough guy" visual comes from.
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Old 11-24-2016, 11:48 PM   #18
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Lol, Owens is shorter than 6'0. He acts like the fat kid who mutters something under his breath and then shies away when you confront him about it.

Good for a weedy heel, don't get me wrong, but I don't get where this "tough guy" visual comes from.
Steen being a top guy in the business is basically why im against this era as a whole. Looks like a fan crawled over the barrier and started putting matches together.

If he was booked like a pussy I'd be able to deal.
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Old 11-25-2016, 05:41 AM   #19
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Steen being a top guy in the business is basically why im against this era as a whole. Looks like a fan crawled over the barrier and started putting matches together.

If he was booked like a pussy I'd be able to deal.
I think I told this in 100,001 replies, but I showed him to a friend and she thought he was a joke wrestler, just because he's so "not what you'd expect." You'd think it'd be in a good way, but not so. He's the antithesis of what people associate with wrestling in many ways. It never dawned on me until someone laid it out like that. He doesn't look ripped, he doesn't have crazy hair, he's not loud and riddled with catchphrases, he does "joke moves" (that was in respond to him faking a dive and hitting a clothesline) and he does a "stand-up routine." He was described as a kid trying to be cool. I honestly think you need to be a smark to "get him." If you like wrestling, you might have time for his shtick, but he's not hooking your average person.

But she also thought Dolph Ziggler was a freak too. That's just anecdotal, but maybe we should face the fact that some of the guys "we" love just don't draw. Sorry guys.

When it comes to a guy like Kevin Owens, I think about Bobby Heenan. Now, I might be off on this. I've looked for the reason Bobby Heenan quit being an active wrestler. I've heard he was a pretty good worker though. Maybe he got injured and tried to make another go of it, but he still took the occasional bump as a manager. I look at Heenan and I don't see a wrestler though. I see a smug weasel whose brain is his best weapon, realized it, and became a bonafide legend because of it.

Heenan might have been a wonderful wrestler, but he was never going to be the AWA World Heavyweight Champion, or WWF World Champion. He could manage them though. I hate to sound like millenial-hating CyNick, but we live in a world now where everybody gets a turn, and if a dude can technically take bumps and chain together a sequence of moves, then he's counted as a worker and he gets the same sort of push as someone else. Brian Hildebrand becomes to mind too. He was apparently a great little worker, but was too small to be a threat in the day, so he was a referee.

Now it's like "Well, Spike Dudley works hard and can put together some moves. Maybe we should make him the World Champion? It'd be different and people seem to really love Spike." You're seeing James Ellsworth beat the WWE Champion each week, Kevin Owens is the RAW World Champion, Goldberg is legitimately the most bad-ass star they have in 2016, and it's fine that he beat Brock Lesnar because no one else could do it believably. But it's all fine, because the boys can all "work" right. Part of working is making people believe in you, thus putting asses in seats.

I'm just ranting and raving now, but I honestly think it is more damaging to the business than a "feel good" brigade would have you think. Somewhere the ceiling became lower and the prerequisites for being a top guy were lifted. Do you really think Kevin Owens is better than Bobby Heenan? It seems like a weird comparison to make, but I need to use someone that is loved that never got given a World Title despite their talent. What about Brad Armstrong? Dean Malenko? Mr. Perfect? These guys never got WCW or WWF World Title reigns, despite being so good in the ring; Mr. Perfect was good on the mic too. But apparently you're a cunt for thinking that maybe the nut-busting for Kevin Owens isn't proportionate.
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:02 PM   #20
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I don't think having giant wrestlers matters all that much. Most big guys are busts anyways. I also don't think most people care about whether or not wrestlers should look like they can beat them up, I think you guys who want this are repressed homosexuals, and when you say you want to see superstars who can kick your ass, what you really want is a superstar who looks like they can pin you down and fuck you.

I also think the enormous success of the Attitude era had more to do with the direction of the overall brand. Wrestling at the time was able to tap into the weird ass late 90s early 2000s zeitgeist. I would also argue that Austin wasn't really "larger than life", if anything he was the antithesis to the larger than life characters that were so common in wrestling.


The problem right now is with the writing. WWE can't seem to tell any original, cohesive and engaging stories. Everything is meandering and repetitive or just plain stupid (see Sting v Triple H story line turning into a tired WCW v WWE angle). I feel like the last great story WWE told was Daniel Bryan's.
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:41 PM   #21
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Lots of big ass wrestlers in the mid 90s and from 2006-2011 and no one gave a shit.

You aren't going to get a bunch of people tuning into 5 hours of this shit a week because some of the guys are really big and muscular.
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:45 PM   #22
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2006-2011 had a shit ton more viewers than today.
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:59 PM   #23
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2006-2011 had a shit ton more viewers than today.
Yup
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:51 PM   #24
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Not as much viewers as Pre-Cena.
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Old 11-24-2016, 08:00 PM   #25
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Not as much viewers as Pre-Cena.
You mean the era when pretty much everyone was juiced?
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Old 11-24-2016, 08:04 PM   #26
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Yeah dumb argument @ Ruien, and misses. As STD has implied ratings were trending downward and I don't want to get into a Cynick (although he's right) argument about how viewing habits, entertainment options are different today. My general point is how even with lots of big guys, business is not always great.
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Old 11-24-2016, 08:09 PM   #27
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Well of course having the guys who fit the correct description is only 1 variable but its still a variable.
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Old 11-24-2016, 08:28 PM   #28
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Well of course having the guys who fit the correct description is only 1 variable but its still a variable.
It's a variable that doesn't really mean shit. I'm not trying to argue that small, work rate guys are huge draws or anything like that.

The 80s boom was about the dismantling of the territories, and the rise of cable television and PPV. The attitude era's popularity was founded on a complete pivot away from what wrestling was at the time. It was Sable's tits, crotch chops, and a cool, beer drinking, redneck beating up his boss. It had nothing to do with big, roided up guys.

Personally I don't think this level of popularity is ever coming back. But I do think WWE can find a way to tell cool, exciting stories again, and they don't need massive guys to do so.
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Old 11-25-2016, 02:28 PM   #29
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It's a variable that doesn't really mean shit. I'm not trying to argue that small, work rate guys are huge draws or anything like that.

The 80s boom was about the dismantling of the territories, and the rise of cable television and PPV. The attitude era's popularity was founded on a complete pivot away from what wrestling was at the time. It was Sable's tits, crotch chops, and a cool, beer drinking, redneck beating up his boss. It had nothing to do with big, roided up guys.

Personally I don't think this level of popularity is ever coming back. But I do think WWE can find a way to tell cool, exciting stories again, and they don't need massive guys to do so.
The thing that a lot of people gloss over is that even though ratings are way down from its peak, it's still an episodic program that has been consistently one of the most watched things on cable every single week. No other shows can lay the same claim and produce the amount of product WWE does.

I look at something like TWD, which has amazing ratings, but have been in steady decline for some time now. Eventually the show will pewter out and disappear. Meanehile, I could easily see 20 years from now WWE still having programming in the top 10 in cable every week.

I think it's very possible to see ratings come back, it just takes the right personalities at the right time. There was a time when people said game shows were dead. Then things like Millionaire came around and suddenly they were all the rage. Now they're dead again. It's the nature of people who follow fads.

The cool thing about being a sports entertainment fan in the modern era is for only $10 a month, you get access to so much great programming, and I really believe there's something for everyone. The NXT stuff appeals to the hardcore wrestling fan, 205 will appeal to fans of smaller guys, the future women's show will appeal to another subset. On top of that you can watch any era from the past at your leisure. Plus get all the new content and the original programming they have spearheaded.

So I think you're left with a scenario where perhaps fewer people are watching on traditionsl platforms, but you're growing the base of fans that provide revenue to the company by providing them more and more bang for their buck. As a fan of the product that's a good thing. If I was the type of person that needs to have 7 million people watching what I'm watching because I need that validation from others, then I likely will be disappointed.
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Old 11-25-2016, 05:43 PM   #30
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The thing that a lot of people gloss over is that even though ratings are way down from its peak, it's still an episodic program that has been consistently one of the most watched things on cable every single week. No other shows can lay the same claim and produce the amount of product WWE does.

I look at something like TWD, which has amazing ratings, but have been in steady decline for some time now. Eventually the show will pewter out and disappear. Meanehile, I could easily see 20 years from now WWE still having programming in the top 10 in cable every week.

I think it's very possible to see ratings come back, it just takes the right personalities at the right time ...

The cool thing about being a sports entertainment fan in the modern era is for only $10 a month, you get access to so much great programming, and I really believe there's something for everyone. The NXT stuff appeals to the hardcore wrestling fan, 205 will appeal to fans of smaller guys, the future women's show will appeal to another subset. On top of that you can watch any era from the past at your leisure. Plus get all the new content and the original programming they have spearheaded.
at using TWD again to claim the WWE is better. You did this several times before and each time forgetting how massive TWD viewer base is compared to WWE's and their drops following the traditional pattern for tv show seasons. Meanwhile WWE has been dropping yearly ever since the end of the Attitude Era with the 3 Hour Era producing larger yearly drops. WWE's pretty much down to their core audience since Cena wasn't able to bring in the next gen of long term fans.

This season had the 2nd highest ever premiere in series history and improved from the previous premiere. It is trending downward but is also very early in the season so worst case scenario for this season is maybe Season 3 numbers which would still put it around 3x larger than WWE's overall.

You also way overestimating how valuable the Network is to the mainstream and wrestling fans or else WWE wouldn't be struggling to sell Network subs at the rate they were expecting by now. They expected 3-4 million by now and only have around half of it in terms of paid subs.
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Old 11-25-2016, 06:31 PM   #31
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I look at something like TWD, which has amazing ratings, but have been in steady decline for some time now.
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Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball View Post
at using TWD again to claim the WWE is better. You did this several times before and each time forgetting how massive TWD viewer base is compared to WWE's and their drops following the traditional pattern for tv show seasons. Meanwhile WWE has been dropping yearly ever since the end of the Attitude Era with the 3 Hour Era producing larger yearly drops. WWE's pretty much down to their core audience since Cena wasn't able to bring in the next gen of long term fans.
The Walking Dead average ratings per episode (in millions)...

Season 1: 5.24
Season 2: 6.90
Season 3: 10.40
Season 4: 13.30
Season 5: 14.40
Season 6: 13.15
Season 7: TBD

The Walking Dead season premiere ratings...
Season 1: 5.35
Season 2: 7.26
Season 3: 10.87
Season 4: 16.11
Season 5: 17.30
Season 6: 14.63
Season 7: 17.03

Man. Look at that steady decline.

Again, for everyone who still wishes to take The CyNick seriously... just... come on...
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Old 11-25-2016, 12:15 AM   #32
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you sound like a bitter worker who's jealous of Kevin Steen.
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Old 11-25-2016, 12:24 AM   #33
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you sound like a bitter worker who's jealous of Kevin Steen.
Oh on a personal level im thrilled for him. Guy lives for the business. But i cant watch the product anymore.
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Old 11-25-2016, 03:56 AM   #34
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Oh on a personal level im thrilled for him. Guy lives for the business. But i cant watch the product anymore.
Owens is the thing that makes it impossible for you to watch the product today? A fat guy as champ is literally the biggest reason why you can't watch the product? I'm not trying to sound like a dick, but come on, dude. There are sooooo many more reasons to hate the product that are far more detrimental at this point. The product as a whole is shit these days. Blaming that on any one factor is just dumb.
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Old 11-25-2016, 05:18 AM   #35
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Owens is the thing that makes it impossible for you to watch the product today? A fat guy as champ is literally the biggest reason why you can't watch the product? I'm not trying to sound like a dick, but come on, dude. There are sooooo many more reasons to hate the product that are far more detrimental at this point. The product as a whole is shit these days. Blaming that on any one factor is just dumb.
I dunno, man, it's a pretty big turn-off for me too.
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Old 11-25-2016, 10:05 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Wishbone View Post
Owens is the thing that makes it impossible for you to watch the product today? A fat guy as champ is literally the biggest reason why you can't watch the product? I'm not trying to sound like a dick, but come on, dude. There are sooooo many more reasons to hate the product that are far more detrimental at this point. The product as a whole is shit these days. Blaming that on any one factor is just dumb.
I think if he's the top guy you diminish the product completely. I look at him the same way you would look at David Arquette.
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Old 11-25-2016, 12:28 AM   #37
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Steens position gives license to every fat twat on the indys to not hit the gym amd work in a tshirt
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Old 11-25-2016, 12:34 AM   #38
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Fat people can have good cardio. Just because he looks like a fat slob doesn't mean he's not in good cardiovascular shape. He's there because he has a unique look. Him succeeding doesn't mean WWE will be getting more of his type. He's the only one and will be the only one.
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Old 11-25-2016, 01:37 AM   #39
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Well they have 2 already sooooooooo
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Old 11-25-2016, 03:56 AM   #40
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Maybe everyone here is right and big muscly hulks would raise ratings (I still stand by my statement that it wouldn't have that big of an impact and will continue to until proven otherwise.) However, even if they would help the ratings it wouldn't fix the product and suddenly bring back the days of yore. Even if they fixed the writing, gave the talent more freedom like back in the day, and essentially just fixed everything wrong with the company right this minute it still wouldn't bring back the kind of audience pro-wrestling used to. We live in a different world today. The carny spectacle that is pro-wrestling just will never draw in the kind of crowds it used to ever again. They could definitely do better than they are now, but I honestly believe all of our debating about this is moot in the long run. Wrestling is going the way of its cousins, the circus and side-show. While I think wrestling has enough of a subculture around it to stay alive and not completely disappear like the former are doing I don't think it's possible to change the connotations that wrestling has in mainstream culture. I never hear non-wrestling fans say "eww you watch wrestling even though it doesn't have big stars anymore." I hear them say "eww you watch wrestling? You know it's fake and/or gay, right?" I'm sorry, but I just can't buy that going back to the old way would do anything to change that perception. In fact if anything I think it'd make it worse.
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