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Old 11-28-2016, 06:55 PM   #201
Mr. Nerfect
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
He's fit so he's not a fat fuck. He could probably beat you in a mile race.
Holy fuck, you people really don't get it, do you? There's a difference between perception and reality. I don't give a fuck if Kevin Owens can climb mountains like Brian Blessed -- it's what people think. What does your average person think when they look at Kevin Owens?

Didn't they do some sort of testing group a year or so back and Owens tested "surprisingly low?" I wouldn't hold onto that one instance forever, but for fuck's sake some people have their head up in the clouds.
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Old 11-28-2016, 07:15 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XL View Post
People will always have differing opinions, the idea that there is a concensus IWC mindest is patently wrong. It is a little difficult to sometimes marry individual thought processes together; there's a lot of "this is what I like so I reckon everybody else will love it", and a lot of presumption about that the casual fan wants versus what the hardcore fan wants.

Hate to pick on Noid again, but he's a key example of somebody you would have said was a typical IWC wrestling fan, who has now evolved to see "the bigger picture". He will have you believe that the product isn't as hot because of the vast majority of guys on the roster being very "everyman" rather than these "larger than life superheroes", yet will advocate that Shinsuke Nakamura is the next big star who should be brought up for a feud with HHH at Mania. I don't see it myself, and I can't see how the 2 streams of thought can exist in the same mind.

I also question how much the casual fan cares about things like psychology and selling, or whether these are things that longtime fans project on to other parts of the (potential) fan base. (Also don't quite get how you can call for the return of real-life superheroes yet bemoan a superhero-like comeback).

Don't get me wrong, psychology can add to a match, and makes the experience far more emersive if you know what you're looking for (look at the 2-out-of-3 Falls Tag Match at NXT Toronto, for example) but I think the importance to the casual fan is probably overstated.

Some elements of the IWC like to think of themselves about it all; they can see the strings and they love to let you know about it. "If you can't see what they were doing with the no-match between Lesnar and Goldberg then you don't understand the business" is a key theme that's been doing the rounds. JR on his podcast pretty much says this, he likens it to the NWA Champ dropping a fall in a tag match, stating that it's something that worked then so it should work today, completely ignoring the fact that what worked with limited/territory coverage has been used for the last 30 years and at this point it so transparant that it's laughable.

For me, you can dislike the Lesnar/Goldberg result because you can see the strings; another rehash at Mania. A match we've seen before, that will likely not benefit the longterm progress of the brand; Goldberg and Lesnar will likely be gone post-Mania anyway, and any heat/rub taken with them.

There's also rumours of an Orton/Taker match; another rehash, where nobody gains anything. Scratch that. Orton could beat Taker, to put himself in that bracket with Lesnar to set up a rematch between those two, but, well, another rematch.

I can pick apart 100 things that WWE do that don't make sense, but I don't think fixing those will be an instant fix to the ratings slump.
I love you, XL.

That being said, while we disagree on the specifics, I think we agree on the larger philosophical point.

I confess all the time to being a typical internet mark. I used to think Paul London was the best wrestler in the world, etc. A few things have started clicking in my mind. Hearing lots of smart people talk about the psychology behind booking and the industry in general, as well as just being a fan for years has turned me into a different sort of mark. I'm not longer a guy that thinks what I like is going to be what others like -- it's now that I look for things that others might like and try to determine why. It's like a mental maths puzzle, and I find that infinitely more stimulating than the current product.

When it comes to Nakamura, I think you've got one of the few guys in wrestling with star-level charisma. I'm realizing now that the guy isn't bulletproof, and I actually worry about his WWE run now. The more they try to get him to work the WWE style, the more I think "Well, he's not special anymore." I would present Nakamura as a big deal though. Have him show up on PPV and Kinshasa someone. Rinse, wash, repeat.

We differ on the psychology point, because I think it is UNDERSTATED how much psychology matters. I don't think people "look" for it, but I think when it's not there they lose interest. It's an intuition thing. And that's a large part of why ratings are so low at the moment. None of the guys working today know how to work like a Shawn Michaels, Mick Foley or Steve Austin. Or if they do, they certainly don't put it into practice.

I'm completely convinced on the Goldberg thing, by the way. I heard someone criticizing it and talking about Goldberg's cardio and how he's too old to have longer matches. Lol, why would you want Goldberg to have longer matches? It's insane to me. I also think Brock losing makes him more interesting; not less. Brock has actually lost a lot -- even since he broke the streak. He lost to Cena at Night of Champions, he lost to Seth Rollins at WrestleMania, he lost to The Undertaker at SummerSlam, and he lost in the Royal Rumble. His WrestleMania record since returning is 2-2-1. Brock is a complete professional wrestler in that he knows how to not only sell winning, but sell losing in a way that, as people say, "wins and losses don't matter." They do matter, but you can make losing matter too. Brock has ALWAYS been good at that. Goldberg...not so much.

Truth be told, I'd put Goldberg over Brock at WrestleMania again. Everyone is expecting the Brock gets his win back over Goldberg "it was nice while it lasted" shtick. Nah, go with Goldberg being Brock's kryptonite.

I'm completely with you on the Undertaker/Orton thing. That being said, because I don't really give a fuck anymore, I don't have a problem with it. Ideally, you would put someone over Taker that you'd then go and put over Brock, but whatever -- if Taker wants to do the Orton stuff, let him do the Orton stuff. At this point, as bland as I often find Randy, he's one of the closest things you have to a star, so you might as well give him some rarefied air, even if it's just so he can keep RKOing people and people think it's just that little bit more special. I have a feeling we're heading towards Undertaker vs. Cena and Orton & Bray vs. American Alpha at WrestleMania now though. So there's that.
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Old 11-28-2016, 07:46 PM   #203
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I would like to point out that since his first night when he beat Cena, Owens has always gotten a reaction from the crowd. That can't be said for many of the guys that the IWC loves.
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Old 11-28-2016, 07:50 PM   #204
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Dean Ambrose was always getting good reactions for a while. Well, until they killed him. Owens' time will come.
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Old 11-28-2016, 09:01 PM   #205
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Dean Amrose looks less threatening than Owens, but it's ok because he is so crazy he is a lunatic apparently.
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Old 11-28-2016, 09:07 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Holy fuck, you people really don't get it, do you? There's a difference between perception and reality. I don't give a fuck if Kevin Owens can climb mountains like Brian Blessed -- it's what people think. What does your average person think when they look at Kevin Owens?

Didn't they do some sort of testing group a year or so back and Owens tested "surprisingly low?" I wouldn't hold onto that one instance forever, but for fuck's sake some people have their head up in the clouds.
Thing is, Noid, none of us can answer that question because we're not "average people." Even you are just speculating really (albeit educated speculation.) Honestly everyone is different even when talking about the "average." I'd argue that many people are going to have wildly different reactions to anyone you put in front of them. It all really boils down to demographics and what subcultures the person in question subscribes to. That's why I think it's stupid to aim for a casual audience because there are just so many variables in today's society. Even so-called "mainstream" stuff like Kanye West and the Kardashians are extremely divisive nowadays. Honestly I think the best thing for wrestling is to own up to what they are and then provide a lot of variety in that. Have your Owenses, Balors, etc as top guys while still having your Goldbergs and your Reignses mixed in too. Just my two cents anyway.
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Old 11-29-2016, 04:41 AM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Dean Ambrose was always getting good reactions for a while. Well, until they killed him. Owens' time will come.
Lol I've always loved your sunny optimism
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Old 11-29-2016, 12:15 PM   #208
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Noid's signature is awfully ironic nowadays.
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Old 11-29-2016, 03:33 PM   #209
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Yeah, I should probably get onto changing that now that I'm a realist.
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Old 11-29-2016, 04:38 PM   #210
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Or allow CyNick to join the stable.
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Old 11-29-2016, 04:50 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Holy fuck, you people really don't get it, do you? There's a difference between perception and reality. I don't give a fuck if Kevin Owens can climb mountains like Brian Blessed -- it's what people think. What does your average person think when they look at Kevin Owens?
Yeah, wrestling is a work. Crazy I know
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Old 11-29-2016, 07:46 PM   #212
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My older brother tells me that Dean Ambrose can't punch, but I won't believe it, dammit!
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Old 11-29-2016, 07:57 PM   #213
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Sabu should have beat him. ^_o
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