Did Vince help or hurt the wrestling industry?

[Mr. Nerfect]

I used to believe some of the McMyths, but I now find myself in the same camp as educated folk like Destor, #1-wwf-fan and BigCrippyZ. Vince has smashed people over the head with the assertion that he somehow saved wrestling, took it out of smoky halls and legitimized it. All you need to do is account for inflation and you can see how he has scorched the earth.

Creatively, wrestling is fucked. If you prove yourself to be a good wrestler with anything resembling an ounce of creativity, the WWE will eventually snap you up. It has been presented as the "dream" to work there, and the kids getting into the business today eat it up. They'll be sent out there with some caricature of their gimmick, do scripted interviews that don't build any heat, and then they'll have the same match every week. Look at the wonderful talent signed to the WWE to train in Orlando -- and look at how everyone comes out with the same style, the WWE style (now influenced more by independent hybrid style), the "right way" to wrestle. This is despite guys getting injured a lot more frequently -- and they are breaking their bodies for almost no one.

The WWE product is gentrified. It's where pro-wrestling as art goes to die, and the artist goes to be force-fed until they become fat, lazy cats that don't mind lying in the sun for as long as Vince will pay them. And being there, traveling the world, seeing kids smile (because they've been conditioned to the cold), and having a reaffirming locker-room tells them all that they are doing the right thing, and that this is the "evolution" of wrestling.

With the death of WCW, hope for wrestling died out. There was no one to make Vince McMahon sweat and go at someone else's pace. He had no reason to be good anymore. It might seem counterproductive to try and purposely be bad, but Vince has had no reason to churn out quality when he is the only legitimate product there is.

The thing is, if a millionaire sank money into a wrestling promotion, it wouldn't be that unreasonable to imagine it competing effectively with Vince, provided the right minds were involved. All Vince has is the money. His television ratings are not unbeatable. He has no real stars. He's actually conditioned a lot of his wrestlers to be bad at their jobs (get over and draw money). Vince made the assertion that PPV is a dead industry -- a legitimately wrestling promotion could blow that right open. You watch how quickly Shawn Michaels came back and made a star if a billionaire went toe-to-toe with Vince. You watch how quickly Vince gets around film companies not wanting The Rock to wrestle if there is another wrestling show getting a higher rating share than him every week. You also watch how quickly talent jump if a viable alternative pops up too. You'd be seeing Nick Nemeth, Claudio Castagnoli and Bryan Danielson identifying with a different initialism very fast if there is something secure there.

And for proof, look at NXT. It's generally regarded as being better than RAW or SmackDown every week. It's wrestling done as wrestling was done prior to Vince taking over. Matches booked with talent you want to look strong going over strong so that your fans accept them as a big deal and are willing to pay to see them compete. Now, it is kept around on the good graces of Vince's money, and it can spend the dough to get the top independent talent in the world to work for it, but that talent generally gets very over, very quickly. In fact, the most over acts on the WWE roster haven't been around for that long either (James Ellsworth, Chris Jericho's pen).

It is still my jizzy-cock fantasy for The Rock to decide to compete with Vince. The Rock is the one dude that could make wrestling cool and sway instant smark opinion away from the Vince McMahon is God myth. He is charismatic enough to carry a show by doing a shit in the ring, and I have no doubt he could piece together a decent enough roster with relatively short notice who would be just dying to be seen as part of The Rock's crew.

Why would Rock fight Vince? Because if he can make the promotion profitable, it's an extra source of income for him and something for his production company to attach itself to. But it would also be good for the wrestling business. It would give guys like Nick Nemeth and Claudio Castagnoli places to work and be the stars that Rock got the chance to be. It's unlikely that either will be as great as The Rock -- especially in a crossover sense -- but they could be mainstream wrestling figures as long as it's in a place where that isn't against the Vince McMahon narrative.

I don't think it will happen, but if it did, wrestling would be in the spotlight again. Vince has taken it out of the spotlight.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Noid I used to believe some of the McMyths, but I now find myself in the same camp as educated folk like Destor, #1-wwf-fan and BigCrippyZ. Vince has smashed people over the head with the assertion that he somehow saved wrestling, took it out of smoky halls and legitimized it. All you need to do is account for inflation and you can see how he has scorched the earth. Creatively, wrestling is fucked. If you prove yourself to be a good wrestler with anything resembling an ounce of creativity, the WWE will eventually snap you up. It has been presented as the "dream" to work there, and the kids getting into the business today eat it up. They'll be sent out there with some caricature of their gimmick, do scripted interviews that don't build any heat, and then they'll have the same match every week. Look at the wonderful talent signed to the WWE to train in Orlando -- and look at how everyone comes out with the same style, the WWE style (now influenced more by independent hybrid style), the "right way" to wrestle. This is despite guys getting injured a lot more frequently -- and they are breaking their bodies for almost no one. The WWE product is gentrified. It's where pro-wrestling as art goes to die, and the artist goes to be force-fed until they become fat, lazy cats that don't mind lying in the sun for as long as Vince will pay them. And being there, traveling the world, seeing kids smile (because they've been conditioned to the cold), and having a reaffirming locker-room tells them all that they are doing the right thing, and that this is the "evolution" of wrestling. With the death of WCW, hope for wrestling died out. There was no one to make Vince McMahon sweat and go at someone else's pace. He had no reason to be good anymore. It might seem counterproductive to try and purposely be bad, but Vince has had no reason to churn out quality when he is the only legitimate product there is. The thing is, if a millionaire sank money into a wrestling promotion, it wouldn't be that unreasonable to imagine it competing effectively with Vince, provided the right minds were involved. All Vince has is the money. His television ratings are not unbeatable. He has no real stars. He's actually conditioned a lot of his wrestlers to be bad at their jobs (get over and draw money). Vince made the assertion that PPV is a dead industry -- a legitimately wrestling promotion could blow that right open. You watch how quickly Shawn Michaels came back and made a star if a billionaire went toe-to-toe with Vince. You watch how quickly Vince gets around film companies not wanting The Rock to wrestle if there is another wrestling show getting a higher rating share than him every week. You also watch how quickly talent jump if a viable alternative pops up too. You'd be seeing Nick Nemeth, Claudio Castagnoli and Bryan Danielson identifying with a different initialism very fast if there is something secure there. And for proof, look at NXT. It's generally regarded as being better than RAW or SmackDown every week. It's wrestling done as wrestling was done prior to Vince taking over. Matches booked with talent you want to look strong going over strong so that your fans accept them as a big deal and are willing to pay to see them compete. Now, it is kept around on the good graces of Vince's money, and it can spend the dough to get the top independent talent in the world to work for it, but that talent generally gets very over, very quickly. In fact, the most over acts on the WWE roster haven't been around for that long either (James Ellsworth, Chris Jericho's pen). It is still my jizzy-cock fantasy for The Rock to decide to compete with Vince. The Rock is the one dude that could make wrestling cool and sway instant smark opinion away from the Vince McMahon is God myth. He is charismatic enough to carry a show by doing a shit in the ring, and I have no doubt he could piece together a decent enough roster with relatively short notice who would be just dying to be seen as part of The Rock's crew. Why would Rock fight Vince? Because if he can make the promotion profitable, it's an extra source of income for him and something for his production company to attach itself to. But it would also be good for the wrestling business. It would give guys like Nick Nemeth and Claudio Castagnoli places to work and be the stars that Rock got the chance to be. It's unlikely that either will be as great as The Rock -- especially in a crossover sense -- but they could be mainstream wrestling figures as long as it's in a place where that isn't against the Vince McMahon narrative. I don't think it will happen, but if it did, wrestling would be in the spotlight again. Vince has taken it out of the spotlight.

Drew 100k people to Mania last year. If that's out of the spotlight, well the spotlight must be brighter than the Sun. I'll never forget when mid South used to put 70k people in a stadium every year. Those were the good ol'days.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Drew 100k people to Mania last year. If that's out of the spotlight, well the spotlight must be brighter than the Sun. I'll never forget when mid South used to put 70k people in a stadium every year. Those were the good ol'days.

This is the argument people use when they want to keep their head in the sand. Everything's great, everything's great. Yeah, until it's not. You don't get an immediate drop-off. People use the 100k line to justify the creative direction coming out of the show. That's putting the cart before the horse.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Noid This is the argument people use when they want to keep their head in the sand. Everything's great, everything's great. Yeah, until it's not. You don't get an immediate drop-off. People use the 100k line to justify the creative direction coming out of the show. That's putting the cart before the horse.

No word of a lie, when I first started reading The Observer, call it in like 98 or something, Dave literally wrote that "everything is great until it's not" line. I think back then the big concern was so many DQ finishes on TV were going to lead to people not caring about matches which would eventually kill their ability to draw. Wherever I hear his blind faith followers like yourself parrot those types of lines I laugh. The company had never been stronger than it is now. Guys like Dave and you have been saying Doomsday is coming. Eventually if you keep repeating it, it might be true and then you can say "see told ya", but ignore the decades of being wrong.

Meanwhile the company continues to increase Network subs, continues to increase TV rights fees, Mania is on a decade long streak of doing 60k plus seat venues. All of which suggest the real fans, not the people who complain on TPWW (all ten of you guys), are very happy with the product.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by The CyNick No word of a lie, when I first started reading The Observer, call it in like 98 or something, Dave literally wrote that "everything is great until it's not" line. I think back then the big concern was so many DQ finishes on TV were going to lead to people not caring about matches which would eventually kill their ability to draw. Wherever I hear his blind faith followers like yourself parrot those types of lines I laugh. The company had never been stronger than it is now. Guys like Dave and you have been saying Doomsday is coming. Eventually if you keep repeating it, it might be true and then you can say "see told ya", but ignore the decades of being wrong. Meanwhile the company continues to increase Network subs, continues to increase TV rights fees, Mania is on a decade long streak of doing 60k plus seat venues. All of which suggest the real fans, not the people who complain on TPWW (all ten of you guys), are very happy with the product.

It's a common phrase -- I didn't make it up; nor did Dave Meltzer. It's cute you've memorized things he wrote in 1998 though. Sheep.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Noid I used to believe some of the McMyths, but I now find myself in the same camp as educated folk like Destor, #1-wwf-fan and BigCrippyZ. Vince has smashed people over the head with the assertion that he somehow saved wrestling, took it out of smoky halls and legitimized it. All you need to do is account for inflation and you can see how he has scorched the earth. Creatively, wrestling is fucked. If you prove yourself to be a good wrestler with anything resembling an ounce of creativity, the WWE will eventually snap you up. It has been presented as the "dream" to work there, and the kids getting into the business today eat it up. They'll be sent out there with some caricature of their gimmick, do scripted interviews that don't build any heat, and then they'll have the same match every week. Look at the wonderful talent signed to the WWE to train in Orlando -- and look at how everyone comes out with the same style, the WWE style (now influenced more by independent hybrid style), the "right way" to wrestle. This is despite guys getting injured a lot more frequently -- and they are breaking their bodies for almost no one. The WWE product is gentrified. It's where pro-wrestling as art goes to die, and the artist goes to be force-fed until they become fat, lazy cats that don't mind lying in the sun for as long as Vince will pay them. And being there, traveling the world, seeing kids smile (because they've been conditioned to the cold), and having a reaffirming locker-room tells them all that they are doing the right thing, and that this is the "evolution" of wrestling. With the death of WCW, hope for wrestling died out. There was no one to make Vince McMahon sweat and go at someone else's pace. He had no reason to be good anymore. It might seem counterproductive to try and purposely be bad, but Vince has had no reason to churn out quality when he is the only legitimate product there is. The thing is, if a millionaire sank money into a wrestling promotion, it wouldn't be that unreasonable to imagine it competing effectively with Vince, provided the right minds were involved. All Vince has is the money. His television ratings are not unbeatable. He has no real stars. He's actually conditioned a lot of his wrestlers to be bad at their jobs (get over and draw money). Vince made the assertion that PPV is a dead industry -- a legitimately wrestling promotion could blow that right open. You watch how quickly Shawn Michaels came back and made a star if a billionaire went toe-to-toe with Vince. You watch how quickly Vince gets around film companies not wanting The Rock to wrestle if there is another wrestling show getting a higher rating share than him every week. You also watch how quickly talent jump if a viable alternative pops up too. You'd be seeing Nick Nemeth, Claudio Castagnoli and Bryan Danielson identifying with a different initialism very fast if there is something secure there. And for proof, look at NXT. It's generally regarded as being better than RAW or SmackDown every week. It's wrestling done as wrestling was done prior to Vince taking over. Matches booked with talent you want to look strong going over strong so that your fans accept them as a big deal and are willing to pay to see them compete. Now, it is kept around on the good graces of Vince's money, and it can spend the dough to get the top independent talent in the world to work for it, but that talent generally gets very over, very quickly. In fact, the most over acts on the WWE roster haven't been around for that long either (James Ellsworth, Chris Jericho's pen). It is still my jizzy-cock fantasy for The Rock to decide to compete with Vince. The Rock is the one dude that could make wrestling cool and sway instant smark opinion away from the Vince McMahon is God myth. He is charismatic enough to carry a show by doing a shit in the ring, and I have no doubt he could piece together a decent enough roster with relatively short notice who would be just dying to be seen as part of The Rock's crew. Why would Rock fight Vince? Because if he can make the promotion profitable, it's an extra source of income for him and something for his production company to attach itself to. But it would also be good for the wrestling business. It would give guys like Nick Nemeth and Claudio Castagnoli places to work and be the stars that Rock got the chance to be. It's unlikely that either will be as great as The Rock -- especially in a crossover sense -- but they could be mainstream wrestling figures as long as it's in a place where that isn't against the Vince McMahon narrative. I don't think it will happen, but if it did, wrestling would be in the spotlight again. Vince has taken it out of the spotlight.

TNA is apparently thinking of PPV again, let's see how well they do. When they fail on PPV, you'll have some excuse. The fact is nobody has figured out the formula to draw money on PPV with sports entertainment. Even WCW was largely unsuccessful save for as couple years when they pushed stars Vince created.

[KIRA]

Originally Posted by The CyNick TNA is apparently thinking of PPV again, let's see how well they do. When they fail on PPV, you'll have some excuse. The fact is nobody has figured out the formula to draw money on PPV with sports entertainment. Even WCW was largely unsuccessful save for as couple years when they pushed stars Vince created.

Vince didn't create Sting or Goldberg

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Noid I used to believe some of the McMyths, but I now find myself in the same camp as educated folk like Destor, #1-wwf-fan and BigCrippyZ. Vince has smashed people over the head with the assertion that he somehow saved wrestling, took it out of smoky halls and legitimized it. All you need to do is account for inflation and you can see how he has scorched the earth. Creatively, wrestling is fucked. If you prove yourself to be a good wrestler with anything resembling an ounce of creativity, the WWE will eventually snap you up. It has been presented as the "dream" to work there, and the kids getting into the business today eat it up. They'll be sent out there with some caricature of their gimmick, do scripted interviews that don't build any heat, and then they'll have the same match every week. Look at the wonderful talent signed to the WWE to train in Orlando -- and look at how everyone comes out with the same style, the WWE style (now influenced more by independent hybrid style), the "right way" to wrestle. This is despite guys getting injured a lot more frequently -- and they are breaking their bodies for almost no one. The WWE product is gentrified. It's where pro-wrestling as art goes to die, and the artist goes to be force-fed until they become fat, lazy cats that don't mind lying in the sun for as long as Vince will pay them. And being there, traveling the world, seeing kids smile (because they've been conditioned to the cold), and having a reaffirming locker-room tells them all that they are doing the right thing, and that this is the "evolution" of wrestling. With the death of WCW, hope for wrestling died out. There was no one to make Vince McMahon sweat and go at someone else's pace. He had no reason to be good anymore. It might seem counterproductive to try and purposely be bad, but Vince has had no reason to churn out quality when he is the only legitimate product there is. The thing is, if a millionaire sank money into a wrestling promotion, it wouldn't be that unreasonable to imagine it competing effectively with Vince, provided the right minds were involved. All Vince has is the money. His television ratings are not unbeatable. He has no real stars. He's actually conditioned a lot of his wrestlers to be bad at their jobs (get over and draw money). Vince made the assertion that PPV is a dead industry -- a legitimately wrestling promotion could blow that right open. You watch how quickly Shawn Michaels came back and made a star if a billionaire went toe-to-toe with Vince. You watch how quickly Vince gets around film companies not wanting The Rock to wrestle if there is another wrestling show getting a higher rating share than him every week. You also watch how quickly talent jump if a viable alternative pops up too. You'd be seeing Nick Nemeth, Claudio Castagnoli and Bryan Danielson identifying with a different initialism very fast if there is something secure there. And for proof, look at NXT. It's generally regarded as being better than RAW or SmackDown every week. It's wrestling done as wrestling was done prior to Vince taking over. Matches booked with talent you want to look strong going over strong so that your fans accept them as a big deal and are willing to pay to see them compete. Now, it is kept around on the good graces of Vince's money, and it can spend the dough to get the top independent talent in the world to work for it, but that talent generally gets very over, very quickly. In fact, the most over acts on the WWE roster haven't been around for that long either (James Ellsworth, Chris Jericho's pen). It is still my jizzy-cock fantasy for The Rock to decide to compete with Vince. The Rock is the one dude that could make wrestling cool and sway instant smark opinion away from the Vince McMahon is God myth. He is charismatic enough to carry a show by doing a shit in the ring, and I have no doubt he could piece together a decent enough roster with relatively short notice who would be just dying to be seen as part of The Rock's crew. Why would Rock fight Vince? Because if he can make the promotion profitable, it's an extra source of income for him and something for his production company to attach itself to. But it would also be good for the wrestling business. It would give guys like Nick Nemeth and Claudio Castagnoli places to work and be the stars that Rock got the chance to be. It's unlikely that either will be as great as The Rock -- especially in a crossover sense -- but they could be mainstream wrestling figures as long as it's in a place where that isn't against the Vince McMahon narrative. I don't think it will happen, but if it did, wrestling would be in the spotlight again. Vince has taken it out of the spotlight.

NXT is great. But I'm a hardcore fan. I'm in the group with the 1.4 million people who are passionate sports entertainment fan. If NXT was the way to book to the broader audience, the NXT house shows would be in the Staples Centre and The RAW and SDL house shows would be in bingo Halls. It's not like NXT is some new promotion, they have been around and been strong for several years. But to the AVERAGE fan they're not seen as big time. The genius of Vince and Hunter is that they are catering content to the hardcore fans and putting it on The Network. So sure you may claim to hate RAW (and watch every week), but you can still enjoy NXT, 205 Live, this British Deal, the upcoming Women's Show, etc.

Meanwhile in the main roster they continue to play to large crowds every week, are one of the most watched shows every week on cable, and draw more revenues year after year. You're blind hatred of Vince can't let you see the truth, which is guys methods are very successful. The multi millionaires he's created would echo that statement. Meanwhile Matt Hardy is taking bumps in his back yard for 50 people.

[KIRA]

Originally Posted by The CyNick NXT is great. But I'm a hardcore fan. I'm in the group with the 1.4 million people who are passionate sports entertainment fan. If NXT was the way to book to the broader audience, the NXT house shows would be in the Staples Centre and The RAW and SDL house shows would be in bingo Halls. It's not like NXT is some new promotion, they have been around and been strong for several years. But to the AVERAGE fan they're not seen as big time. The genius of Vince and Hunter is that they are catering content to the hardcore fans and putting it on The Network. So sure you may claim to hate RAW (and watch every week), but you can still enjoy NXT, 205 Live, this British Deal, the upcoming Women's Show, etc. Meanwhile in the main roster they continue to play to large crowds every week, are one of the most watched shows every week on cable, and draw more revenues year after year. You're blind hatred of Vince can't let you see the truth, which is guys methods are very successful. The multi millionaires he's created would echo that statement. Meanwhile Matt Hardy is taking bumps in his back yard for 50 people.

Nobody is enjoying 205 live except Vince. Its weird because like I said it SHOULD work but Vince has done the seemingly impossible and made the Crusierweights boring as fuck.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by KIRA Nobody is enjoying 205 live except Vince. Its weird because like I said it SHOULD work but Vince has done the seemingly impossible and made the Crusierweights boring as fuck.

Well that's a while other story. Cruisers are never going to draw. At least Vince is trying to get them over by giving them their own show to get people to ignore that CWs look like midgets next to real stars like Roman Reigns. If the cruisers can't get over, and have people leaving the building, that's as much on them as it is Vince. And I would blame the talent more because cruisers should be able to get over with their work. If Vince tried to book them like he books his other shows, the same group of complainers would be saying "just let them work matches and they will get over". Wrong.

[KIRA]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Well that's a while other story. Cruisers are never going to draw. At least Vince is trying to get them over by giving them their own show to get people to ignore that CWs look like midgets next to real stars like Roman Reigns. If the cruisers can't get over, and have people leaving the building, that's as much on them as it is Vince. And I would blame the talent more because cruisers should be able to get over with their work. If Vince tried to book them like he books his other shows, the same group of complainers would be saying "just let them work matches and they will get over". Wrong.

So its on Roman Reigns when Vince writes him garbage? hmm.

I think JR pointed out what a big part of the problem is in a triple threat between guys who should be high flyers you have a ridiclous amount of rest holds. Its one thing if thats your hat like Jack Gallagher but otherwise the whole thing should be a lot more frantic than it usually is.



I'd also argue Vince isn't the guy who should be overseeing this I honestly don't think he gets it when it comes to Cruiserweights. He really should go back and look at WCW in that regard.