Jim Cornette / Mick Foley

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by #BrotherVito DELETED Gonna ramble a lot here.....but I think one stumbling blocks of wrestling winning over new fans is because of the misconception that people watch wrestling because they believe it's real, and people are far more likely to embrace it the moment they get over that hurdle. I think a TV show like GLOW will win over far more fans to wrestling who never would have considered it before than any number of neckbeards with a pre-planned "BUT THE HAZARDS ARE REAL" diatribe to unleash any time someone tells them it's fake. Because wrestling fans shouldn't be defensive of wrestling's "reality, we should embrace everything that makes it silly and ridiculous, and celebrate that. Again, it's about creating an emotional investment - even if that initial emotion is nothing more than curiosity, that's a foot in the door that you're far less likely to get if you cling to the notion of wrestling as a legitimate sport. I think it's great early on to let new fans know what your company is about. A casual audience are going to come in with some variation of the "it's fake and gay" preconception, so you have to hook them right off the bat. A comedy match is great for this. Not full-blown shenanigans, but something that's got a decent amount of "real" wrestling in there so people know that you're capable, but enough comedy that people in the crowd realise that the company is in on the joke. Then they're not snickering behind their hands at the inherent silliness of wrestling, they're invited to join in, and the performers are telling them, "it's okay to laugh at this bit". Then they open up, they'll laugh out loud, and then they're invested, and suddenly they're part of the show. Once you've broken that barrier, and got them laughing, they're ten times more likely to start cheering, booing, chanting, and participating. The other way to try and dispel that "it's fake and gay" criticism is to go the entire opposite direction - give the crowd an "Oh shit!" moment right off the bat. Throw out something that impresses even the most jaded person in the audience enough that it'll break through that barrier and just get to an instinctive reaction. Depending on your company - this can be where you throw in some "spot monkeys" and flip-de-doos that nobody in the crowd can do. Or if you're a more hardcore-focused promotion, maybe you start off with a clusterfuck brawl that spills to the outside and you let the fans really hear the chops and forearms right in front of them. So even the jaded fans think "well, that had to hurt". Basically I think you win over fans by giving them an "in" to your world, to effectively say, "it isn't a real sport but, look, that doesn't really matter". That can be comedy - and I do think that's the best way - it can be a big move, it can be a compelling personality or story. But what I don't think can ever manage to win over a new fan, certainly not an adult fan, in this day and age is sticking stubbornly to an insistence that pro-wrestling should be treated as a legitimate sport. If somebody isn't already a fan, they're already going to have a world of preconceptions as to how wrestling absolutely isn't that, and a reasoned argument with the best of intentions will never be enough to change their mind.

I remember when I used to think like this. I used to think that a general person would "get it" if it was obvious that it wasn't supposed to deceive them, because people are very bitter about wrestling being fake. Then I did a bit more growing and research, and I've completely disowned this point of view.

Part of that was looking at how the people buy into the personas of fighters in the UFC and boxing. I heard a person I generally consider to be intelligent talk about a fighter they legitimately wanted to see get his ass kicked. I pointed out that he's probably stirring up those emotions so you pay to see that happen, and he was completely baffled by the idea.

People don't understand how wrestling works. So many people say it's got fake blood, for example. Until recently, they were just wrong. People get so bent up out of shape about it, but generally speaking, I've noticed more and more people with fond memories of when wrestling was "cool." It's not so much that wrestling itself turns people off, I do think it is how it is presented.

I used to think that if wrestling presented itself as being too serious, that people would piss all over it as ridiculous. But almost everything proves contrary to that point. One of the "hotter" moments the WWE has had in recent years was CM Punk's pipe-bomb. There were people I came into contact with on the internet who were generally somewhat worked by that, and wondered if CM Punk was going anywhere, and whether or not his contract was up. Look at the recent success of Goldberg, or how Brock Lesnar feels so much better than basically any other guy there.

The comedy stuff sucks because there is no hook. It's basically performers winking at the camera and saying "You don't need to feel bad for watching this, because we all know it's fake." But that reeks of self-conscious performing. It's an actor breaking the fourth wall in a script that doesn't require it. There's nothing clever about it in the slightest, and generally speaking, although I used to understand where you are coming from, I don't think people like that sort of shit, because it's extra-geeky. It's like a room full of D&D nerds talking shit about D&D as they pretend to play it. What does it actually achieve?

People are generally pretty dumb. That might sound condescending, and it is. I put myself in that category too. Trump is President. People thought the Punk stuff was legit. People don't think professional fighters work them. People think that reality television isn't scripted. There were also people who believed the WWE was building to Bryan vs. The Miz, or that The Miz somehow cut a "shoot" promo in that Talking Smack segment.

I think a few people inside the bubble, who have become disenfranchised with sports entertainment for so long think that the game is up, so they don't bother trying. They push even further into ridiculousness as if that will provide some sort of meta key into winning over hearts and minds. But agin, what really is the point of seeing a couple of people flop around like fish? At least the douches in Jackass had a plan behind pushing the shopping trolley down the hill. It lowers the art form; not raise it. A true meta approach would be to take it seriously, because no one thinks that it is legit, so treating it as legit and trying to pull that wool over people's eyes in 2017 would require some skill, charm, charisma, hard work and an honest-to-god artistic mind. Fake wrestlers jumping around in a fake sport is stating the obvious. It's going low-ball and ground zero with your thinking. Being a real wrestler in a fake sport? That's a bit more advanced. When you can convince people that shit really matters? That is when you can start getting people talking, and if wrestling is ever going to be "cool" again, you are going to notice people talking about things you see through, as a smarter fan, but that they think might just be legit. Or you'll hear that weird general fan bullshit. They work themselves half the time.

I appreciate the point. I used to subscribe to it. But there is no evidence that this works, and people are too smart to be that dumb and too dumb to be that smart, all at the same time. People actually like structure, and they like to be deceived by certain things. You've just got to work out how to present it in a way that is palatable and doesn't insult their intelligence. There's nothing about this sort of comedy wrestling that doesn't insult intelligence. It's literally dick-waving and people lowering themselves for a laugh. It's borderline clowning, and no one truly respects clowns for more than a minute.

Originally Posted by Destor I never said that at any juncture...his brand of comedy is systemic of the issue but in no way the cause. Hes small time.

This basically summarizes it all pretty neatly. This sort of stuff is a response to a profession that has disengaged so many of its viewers, to the point where they actually find this a release to some degree. I can understand why people find it cute -- I'm just not impressed by them. It's by no means the root cause of the problem, but it's in no way the solution, and it in no way helps wrestling look any better. It's actually more embarrassing than actual wrestling, to be honest.

It reminds me of a Doug Stanhope joke. He's talking about Norway having a monarchy or something. He basically mocks them for being boot-licking supplicants who have these people in an exalted position. He then says the common retort is "But they don't really do anything." He points out how this is worse. If someone walked in on you watching wrestling in 2017, given how shit it is, you might be fairly embarrassed. But if someone walked in on your watching some of that invisible grenade bullshit, you could at least say "But they're obviously not really fighting." To which an appropriate response is "...Then why are you fucking watching it?!?"