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Old 09-02-2017, 08:45 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad News Gertner View Post
Cena has lost more than any franchise player the WWE has ever had. Bruno never lost. Backlund went from 1977 until his loss to Diesel in 95 without losing a single MATCH at MSG. Think about that. Hogan is Hogan. Nothing to add. Stone Cold wasn't putting people over left and right. The Rock did his share of losing but not to Cena's level. Cena is just a wrestler. He can't control his opponents mic skills, in ring skills, charisma, and what direction the writing staff goes. He works hard and more often than not has amazing matches. Everything else is out of his hands.
To be fair a bit, Cena has also wrestled a lot more matches at least on tv per year than most of those past franchise players. Think his yearly win percentage and yearly clean loss tally is still up there with those past greats.

In terms of comparisons with Hogan, Cena usually wrestled more on TV in a year than Hogan did over the course of several years.

Do agree about the stuff regarding him having little to no control over how Creative handles his losses afterwards. For example, Nakamura beating Cena for the #1 contender spot on Smackdown should have been treated as a rub by Cena to Nakamura's eventual title win at SummerSlam. Instead Nakamura lost to Jinder in the usual fashion and decreased the value of Cena's loss earlier.
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Old 09-02-2017, 08:59 PM   #82
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I hated that they made Cena look invulnerable after taking a beating for so long. His awful matches with Randy Orton were the worst that way. It's not as if Cena didn't know how to sell, he did/does and is actually pretty good at it.

I just wanted to see him sell match-injuries after the match.
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Old 09-02-2017, 09:01 PM   #83
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For sure. I think that hurt him w fans.
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Old 09-02-2017, 09:06 PM   #84
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Remember when they made a smark Chicago crowd go from hating Cena to going crazy for him when he came back to beat Lesnar at Extreme Rules? It was amazing.

Then they followed it up by having him lose to John Laurinaitis the next month...
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Old 09-02-2017, 09:10 PM   #85
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Well he doesnt lose to lesnar then he loses to laurenatis that just insults peoples intelligence
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Old 09-02-2017, 09:39 PM   #86
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Did Cena job left and right? I seem to remember him being frustratingly well protected. I'd probably make more of a case for protecting him now, because wins and losses do matter (and for those saying booking is a large part of the problem -- that is a large part of booking), if the timing of his elevation was right. He felt really jammed in there at the time, and I remember being off the Cena train well before he was originally given the title and had as long a reign as JBL.
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Old 09-02-2017, 09:41 PM   #87
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Also the fact that hes having a match with laurenatis is also bad booking in itself
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Old 09-02-2017, 09:45 PM   #88
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Laurinaitis showing up at Money in the Bank 2011 was fine. There should have been no more after that.
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Old 09-02-2017, 10:01 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Did Cena job left and right? I seem to remember him being frustratingly well protected. I'd probably make more of a case for protecting him now, because wins and losses do matter (and for those saying booking is a large part of the problem -- that is a large part of booking), if the timing of his elevation was right. He felt really jammed in there at the time, and I remember being off the Cena train well before he was originally given the title and had as long a reign as JBL.
He's always lost way more than any other face of the company. It started slowly around the time he went to Raw but then eventually he was losing more PPV matches than he was winning which is just unheard of for a top face.

Don't get me wrong, it's not the SOLE reason. His booking has been shitty outside of that. But having him job so much is absolutely the biggest fuck up.

Reigns jobs a lot for a top face, too. They made some mistakes early with him that fucked up his character but then it's like they tried to get people on his side by making him take a lot of "harmless" losses and it's just a retarded strategy. Your top face looking weak half the time and then winning a "big one" here and there doesn't endear people to him.

Basically, it's the 50/50 bullshit. The effects are just more noticable with the guys who are being shoved down people's throats as the major stars even though they lose about as much as they win.
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Old 09-03-2017, 12:51 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Did Cena job left and right? I seem to remember him being frustratingly well protected. I'd probably make more of a case for protecting him now, because wins and losses do matter (and for those saying booking is a large part of the problem -- that is a large part of booking), if the timing of his elevation was right. He felt really jammed in there at the time, and I remember being off the Cena train well before he was originally given the title and had as long a reign as JBL.
I think the problem was them trying to have Babyface Cena against Heel Angle, right after the "Booing the Retard" Feud Angle just had. The fans refused to boo Angle, even after he did everything short of setting a bag of puppies on fire and stomping it out to get heat.

Then, from there, it was the Cena-only show. No one got to successfully be a decent star on their own. Anyone who comes close got their legs chopped out from under them, be it by Cena's ego, shit booking, or a combination.

Seriously, They didn't make Big Bossman look like an idiot during Hulkamania. They didn't make Savage look stupid (well, apart from those two Royal Rumble flubs he did). Foley wasn't made to be a complete buffoon while Austin was on top (he had goofy moments, but wasn't made to look like he couldn't beat his meat).
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Old 09-03-2017, 02:10 AM   #91
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I agree that 50/50 booking is a problem, but Cena was protected better than most. Between when he won the WWE Title in 2005 and when he went out with the injury in late 2007, his PPV record was 25-6, with two of those losses being DQ, one of them being the Edge cash-in, the other the RVD cash-in at ONS 2, another being Edge (Cena would definitively win the feud) and the other being a multi-man match. At WrestleMania, Cena would be 4-0 and would make both Triple H and Shawn Michaels tap at WrestleMania.

I'm not saying booking has always been perfect, but Cena was pushed pretty hard. I don't think a harder push would have helped him.
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Old 09-03-2017, 02:33 AM   #92
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Once he got drafted to Raw he started losing pretty consistently on television. Was he protected better than most? For that first couple years at least, yeah. But your top guy SHOULD be winning more than most. That's what justifies him being a top guy. He was still being made to look vulnerable by taking losses every month on Raw to build to PPV. That works for an underdog character (though underdog characters generally don't have a long shelf-life as a top face). It doesn't work for a guy like Cena or Rock or Reigns.
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Old 09-03-2017, 07:57 AM   #93
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I`d hardly say he ruined it. He helped, he was on top during a slump. It`d be like saying Bret Hart harmed WWE because he was on top during the steroid scandal.
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Old 09-03-2017, 08:50 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball View Post
To be fair a bit, Cena has also wrestled a lot more matches at least on tv per year than most of those past franchise players. Think his yearly win percentage and yearly clean loss tally is still up there with those past greats.

In terms of comparisons with Hogan, Cena usually wrestled more on TV in a year than Hogan did over the course of several years.

Do agree about the stuff regarding him having little to no control over how Creative handles his losses afterwards. For example, Nakamura beating Cena for the #1 contender spot on Smackdown should have been treated as a rub by Cena to Nakamura's eventual title win at SummerSlam. Instead Nakamura lost to Jinder in the usual fashion and decreased the value of Cena's loss earlier.
Oh yes definitley. Different era completely. You'd have to start realistically in the mid 90's to compare eras to Cena, although I'd have to do some more in depth research to compare Austin, Rock and Cena. Bruno lost once in a blue moon as did Hogan. Backlund never did, but they were mostly in a era where the Champ hardly wrestled on T.V. Those three never did House Show pinfall losses either
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Old 09-03-2017, 09:36 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by TW Mangrove View Post
John Cena be a total joke yo! he is crap, his gimmick is appealing to the lowest form of WWE fan, the white boy who thinks he is black. Absolutely stupid and his title is straight up retarded. It's not even good rap but then again rap hasn't been good since about 1996. Give me public enemy and NWA over this stupid crap that is out there today. Only way WWE could improve this situation if they bring in an old school rapper character to beat wigger Cena to a pulp.
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Old 09-04-2017, 03:37 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Once he got drafted to Raw he started losing pretty consistently on television. Was he protected better than most? For that first couple years at least, yeah. But your top guy SHOULD be winning more than most. That's what justifies him being a top guy. He was still being made to look vulnerable by taking losses every month on Raw to build to PPV. That works for an underdog character (though underdog characters generally don't have a long shelf-life as a top face). It doesn't work for a guy like Cena or Rock or Reigns.
You're not wrong on that philosophy, but the Super Cena push was part of the reason that a lot of people rejected him, and a large part of why ratings went down. It's hard to imagine this retrospectively, but I just don't think he was the guy when he was pushed as such. It didn't really work. He had the right attitude, and he's certainly developed into the wrestler and occasional money promo now -- but he for a long period of time he was ineffective in the role. If he were effective in it, I think we'd have prospered under Cena a lot more than we have.

But that's not Cena's fault. There are very few guys who can turn it on and be at that level. After consistently being pushed for about 8 years, I think Cena started to get it. Plus, there was that cathartic release with Brock Lesnar kicking his ass. I think that took out of a lot of the frustrations people had.
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