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Old 05-23-2018, 02:17 AM   #1
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Who has been the biggest beneficiary of revisionist history?
What wrestling figure (be it wrestler, manager, promoter, announcer) has benefitted most from revisionist history? As in they've been made out to be a bigger star or more successful than they really were in their heyday. My pick is The Fabulous Moolah. She was a mediocre wrestler, never a draw reportedly and blocked other women wrestlers' opportunities (including some of her own proteges). When New York legalized women's wrestling in the early '70s and MSG lifted the ban on women's wrestling, Moolah got the spot against Vicki Williams in the first women's match at the Garden. This was partly by design as she blocked other women (including Betty Niccoli) from working WWWF shows. In the mid-80s, she had a protege named Mad Maxine (some of you might remember) who WWE planned to have feud w/ Wendi Richter and appear in the Rock 'N Wrestling cartoon. Moolah called the office telling WWE Maxine was too green and took her spot in the cartoon. Next she prevented the chance of a Glamour Girls-Jumping Bomb Angels match at WrestleMania as she interfered w/ a planned title change. Not to mention her supposed 28 yr reign, which was really 10 and involved multiple title changes WWE didn't acknowledge when she sold the belt to them in the early '80s. Might be fair to say that Moolah only enjoys the legacy she has b/c of her closeness to the McMahons.
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Old 05-24-2018, 09:33 AM   #2
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The Undertaker and Triple H are both two dudes who, because of their standing with the dominant company that most modern fans are familiar with, get their historical significance emboldened.

Okay, Taker was a big deal when he showed up. He apparently did draw well until they did that Yoko casket angle, and then he fucking stunk up the joint against useless big dudes, then didn't draw as champion. When you get to the Attitude era, he sucks, but Vince is desperate for talent, but he doesn't really work well with Austin or Rock. He gets fat and shit, gets hurt, comes back as the biker, sticks his fist in everyone's business and by that point he has tenure and is really revered by everyone in the business and it kind of confuses me. Also, I hate the streak and I think it is a reasonable hypothesis to suggest that it may have blocked off better routes for business.

Triple H didn't matter until 1999. He only drew with bigger stars and when he came back as a babyface people got sick of him real fast. His charisma is forced, and while he is really good, he's been pushed for so hard and so long for someone that has returned as little as he has.

Oh, and I like to throw out Vince Russo's names in these too. Because so many fans grew up with the Attitude era, and they kind of believe the narrative that Russo was the architect of it as opposed to a passenger on the train they take this apologetic stance and attribute the overall direction to him and it's a bit gross to me, because I really, really hate Russo, and think you can look at basically anything he has done on his own and instantly dispel any suggestion that he is a genius or that he could find his dick if he was strung up being threatened by Yamaguchi san.
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Old 05-24-2018, 02:47 PM   #3
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I'd say Trips more than Taker. He's on the B Level. Significant enough to be considered a major part of the Attitude Era but not on the level of Austin and Rock. As for Russo he didn't have that buffer when he went to WCW. His importance is definitely overstated m.


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Old 05-25-2018, 10:36 PM   #4
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I'm just amazed at how many people defend Russo today. It just does my head in. He has sucked everywhere but the WWF, which was carried by the hottest star of all-time and is notoriously known for being micromanaged by a man who was on the back foot during that period. I just don't get the narrative of "Vince Russo comes in, his brain makes things hot." It's correlation; not causation.

I'd agree with Trips benefitting more than Taker. There's this inflated significance to Trips that gets him scaffolded up there before he even means anything. Taker meant something first, at least.
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Old 05-26-2018, 01:02 AM   #5
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Russo didn't do shit to contribute to the popularity of the Attitude Era. Austin and the Rick made themselves what they were and were helped along by Taker, HHH, and others. All Russo did is write some show formats and give retarded gimmicks to the mid and lower card guys.
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Old 05-26-2018, 01:53 AM   #6
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Russo absolutely did. People over look Sables role in the product in 98/99. Sables bit was 98% russo. It may be an easy angle to book but sable drew the eye balls of every 13yr old kid in the nation. She was as big of a deal as literally anyone on the roster at their absolute peak.
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Old 05-26-2018, 02:14 AM   #7
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Russo absolutely did. People over look Sables role in the product in 98/99. Sables bit was 98% russo. It may be an easy angle to book but sable drew the eye balls of every 13yr old kid in the nation. She was as big of a deal as literally anyone on the roster at their absolute peak.
Didn't know he was responsible for Sable. She was a big ratings draw. Marc Mero said on a podcast that she had the Brinks trucks backing up to their house.


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Old 05-26-2018, 03:12 AM   #8
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Imo sable is the one thing that got over that you can credit to Russo
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Old 05-26-2018, 07:24 AM   #9
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Andre the Giant was really only a 5'6 vanilla midget. He had lifts and they put him on boxes
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Old 05-26-2018, 10:00 AM   #10
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Ravishing Rick Rude.
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Old 05-26-2018, 11:51 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shisen Kopf
Andre the Giant was really only a 5'6 vanilla midget. He had lifts and they put him on boxes


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Ravishing Rick Rude.
Rated much higher than he was?


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Old 05-26-2018, 12:29 PM   #12
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Imo sable is the one thing that got over that you can credit to Russo
Why, did he perform her implant surgery?
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Old 05-26-2018, 01:48 PM   #13
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Rated much higher than he was?
Rude was not nearly as good as people make him out to be. He was mediocre at best for years.
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Old 05-26-2018, 03:19 PM   #14
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The biggest beneficiary is Vince McMohan.

Think about it...
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Old 05-26-2018, 03:27 PM   #15
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Why, did he perform her implant surgery?
Lol no but the idea show them off was his baby. Which its easy to forget how bold a move that was 20 years later
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Old 05-26-2018, 03:35 PM   #16
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The biggest beneficiary is Vince McMohan.

Think about it...
Especially since he specializes in it.


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Old 05-26-2018, 04:33 PM   #17
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I say Triple H. Revisionist history has allow him to position himself as the greatest gift a wrestling ring has ever seen when anyone who grew up with him knows that that's not the case. What drives me really nuts is that it has seemingly worked people who didn't grow up seeing Triple H get to where he is now just see him as this sort of legendary figure.
Even when he assumed the leadership of DX he felt secondary the group as a whole was a big deal but nobody in that group was Main Event material at least not without Shawn Michaels. He got his main event push literally after all the big guns had done everything. And by the time he got up there wrestling was cooling off. Just to remind myself that this is completely true I have old TV guides where they featured wrestlers on them. Triple H isn't on any of the covers he isn't even mentioned inside the book.
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Old 05-26-2018, 07:34 PM   #18
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Triple H followed by Vince McMahon.

WWE's revisionist history has made Triple H into a much bigger star than he really was during the Attitude Era. While he did have some memorable moments during the era, he was also just another cog in the system considering how many big stars WWE had during that time.

Same for WWE's revisionist history making Ted Turner into the big boogeyman of wrestling when Vince was pulling similar tactics prior and after the Monday Night Wars.
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Old 05-26-2018, 08:08 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Triple H followed by Vince McMahon.

WWE's revisionist history has made Triple H into a much bigger star than he really was during the Attitude Era. While he did have some memorable moments during the era, he was also just another cog in the system considering how many big stars WWE had during that time.

Same for WWE's revisionist history making Ted Turner into the big boogeyman of wrestling when Vince was pulling similar tactics prior and after the Monday Night Wars.
Threatening to pull WrestleMania if cable companies carried Starrcade too.


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Old 05-26-2018, 10:23 PM   #20
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Russo absolutely did. People over look Sables role in the product in 98/99. Sables bit was 98% russo. It may be an easy angle to book but sable drew the eye balls of every 13yr old kid in the nation. She was as big of a deal as literally anyone on the roster at their absolute peak.
She was over. That's a pretty crazy exaggeration though.
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Old 05-26-2018, 10:25 PM   #21
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Watching old 98 Raws, she wasn't as over as Austin but she wasn't far off.
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Old 05-26-2018, 11:35 PM   #22
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She was over. That's a pretty crazy exaggeration though.
Its not. Not even slightly.
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Old 05-27-2018, 10:33 AM   #23
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Do you think WWE losing Sable would have hurt them as much as losing Austin or Rock? If so, you're crazy. If not, then she wasn't as big of a deal. I get the point you were trying to make in playing devil's advocate for Russo but you're clearly exaggerating for effect.
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Old 05-27-2018, 10:51 AM   #24
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Its not. Not even slightly.
She got bigger pops than Austin. It's crazy to consider but she did lol
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Old 05-27-2018, 10:51 AM   #25
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I think Sable was big to the fans who were already there BUT wasn't integral to the product. Still, you can't deny her star power for however long it lasted.
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Old 05-27-2018, 11:04 AM   #26
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Then again though Destor, the Young Bucks are super over and you call them hacks. Vince Russo got Sable over and he's still a fucking hack.
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Old 05-27-2018, 11:13 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by The Dastardly One
I think Sable was big to the fans who were already there BUT wasn't integral to the product. Still, you can't deny her star power for however long it lasted.
This nails it.


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Old 05-27-2018, 12:28 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by The Dastardly One View Post
She got bigger pops than Austin. It's crazy to consider but she did lol
I just recently watched Raw from the beginning to the early 2000s. Austin definitely, without a doubt, undeniably got bigger reactions than Sable.
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Old 05-27-2018, 12:56 PM   #29
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lol

I mean Austin was undeniably the bigger star. But in early 1998 they were comparable... at the very least that's why it was strongly considered to pair them together.
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Old 05-27-2018, 01:16 PM   #30
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The biggest beneficiary is Vince McMohan.

Think about it...
This gets my vote.
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Old 05-27-2018, 01:57 PM   #31
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Hornswoggle

Because he got all the credit for all my hard work
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Old 05-27-2018, 01:58 PM   #32
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I say Triple H. Revisionist history has allow him to position himself as the greatest gift a wrestling ring has ever seen when anyone who grew up with him knows that that's not the case. What drives me really nuts is that it has seemingly worked people who didn't grow up seeing Triple H get to where he is now just see him as this sort of legendary figure.
Even when he assumed the leadership of DX he felt secondary the group as a whole was a big deal but nobody in that group was Main Event material at least not without Shawn Michaels. He got his main event push literally after all the big guns had done everything. And by the time he got up there wrestling was cooling off. Just to remind myself that this is completely true I have old TV guides where they featured wrestlers on them. Triple H isn't on any of the covers he isn't even mentioned inside the book.
Triple H was a main eventer and World Champion by mid 1999 and dominated all the way into 2001. You could argue business didn't cool down until he got hurt in 2001 and the invasion angle alienated fans. 99 and 00 were still very hot years for the WWF. He was the Roddy Piper/mega heel of the late Attitude Era. Without him as a heel, could The Rock have carried WWF in Austin's absence? I think not because there would have been no hot main event programs. He isn't a white hot headlining baby face, but he is damn sure a white hot main event heel that is just as important as the baby face. I'd also argue the HHH-led DX was more over, a bigger draw, and more significant than the original DX. Also, being the #3 banana behind the 2 biggest stars of all time isn't a bad spot to be. Roddy Piper was always in the shadow of Hogan and Savage popularity wise.
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Old 05-27-2018, 02:10 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele
Triple H was a main eventer and World Champion by mid 1999 and dominated all the way into 2001. You could argue business didn't cool down until he got hurt in 2001 and the invasion angle alienated fans. 99 and 00 were still very hot years for the WWF. He was the Roddy Piper/mega heel of the late Attitude Era. Without him as a heel, could The Rock have carried WWF in Austin's absence? I think not because there would have been no hot main event programs. He isn't a white hot headlining baby face, but he is damn sure a white hot main event heel that is just as important as the baby face. I'd also argue the HHH-led DX was more over, a bigger draw, and more significant than the original DX. Also, being the #3 banana behind the 2 biggest stars of all time isn't a bad spot to be. Roddy Piper was always in the shadow of Hogan and Savage popularity wise.
Especially as a heel seeing as WWE has long been a babyface territory even going back to Vince Sr.


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Old 05-27-2018, 02:53 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Do you think WWE losing Sable would have hurt them as much as losing Austin or Rock? If so, you're crazy. If not, then she wasn't as big of a deal. I get the point you were trying to make in playing devil's advocate for Russo but you're clearly exaggerating for effect.
Sable was big money. I dont know why you struggle with this. If we're talking peaks (and i am) she peaked as high or higher than everyone. She was huge. She burnt out fast tho. You can only see the same pair of tits so many times. The playboy jumped the shark. After that it was a harsh crash to obscurity.

Dismiss her all you want. She was just as important to the attitude era as anyone.
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Old 05-27-2018, 04:06 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
Triple H was a main eventer and World Champion by mid 1999 and dominated all the way into 2001. You could argue business didn't cool down until he got hurt in 2001 and the invasion angle alienated fans. 99 and 00 were still very hot years for the WWF. He was the Roddy Piper/mega heel of the late Attitude Era. Without him as a heel, could The Rock have carried WWF in Austin's absence? I think not because there would have been no hot main event programs. He isn't a white hot headlining baby face, but he is damn sure a white hot main event heel that is just as important as the baby face. I'd also argue the HHH-led DX was more over, a bigger draw, and more significant than the original DX. Also, being the #3 banana behind the 2 biggest stars of all time isn't a bad spot to be. Roddy Piper was always in the shadow of Hogan and Savage popularity wise.

Pretty much killed the WWE faster than Russo killed off WCW in 2000. Like a bacteria, clinging to the stronger host in hopes of syphoning off valuable nutrients or "rub", in hopes of being over due to association. A mid card at best in the realm of Snitsky in 2004.
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Old 05-27-2018, 04:25 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor
Sable was big money. I dont know why you struggle with this. If we're talking peaks (and i am) she peaked as high or higher than everyone. She was huge. She burnt out fast tho. You can only see the same pair of tits so many times. The playboy jumped the shark. After that it was a harsh crash to obscurity.

Dismiss her all you want. She was just as important to the attitude era as anyone.
First and biggest female draw for WWE


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Old 05-27-2018, 04:36 PM   #37
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All Sable did for me was make my dad start not letting us watch events live. He would tape them and then let us watch after. Unsure if he ever edited anything out or not.
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Old 05-27-2018, 04:37 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
Sable was big money. I dont know why you struggle with this. If we're talking peaks (and i am) she peaked as high or higher than everyone. She was huge. She burnt out fast tho. You can only see the same pair of tits so many times. The playboy jumped the shark. After that it was a harsh crash to obscurity.

Dismiss her all you want. She was just as important to the attitude era as anyone.
I'm not dismissing her. She was over. Saying she was just as important as anyone is batshit crazy though. By no metric is that true.
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Old 05-27-2018, 04:43 PM   #39
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Also, you didn't answer my question in the post you quoted.
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Old 05-28-2018, 12:35 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Steele View Post
Triple H was a main eventer and World Champion by mid 1999 and dominated all the way into 2001. You could argue business didn't cool down until he got hurt in 2001 and the invasion angle alienated fans. 99 and 00 were still very hot years for the WWF. He was the Roddy Piper/mega heel of the late Attitude Era. Without him as a heel, could The Rock have carried WWF in Austin's absence? I think not because there would have been no hot main event programs. He isn't a white hot headlining baby face, but he is damn sure a white hot main event heel that is just as important as the baby face. I'd also argue the HHH-led DX was more over, a bigger draw, and more significant than the original DX. Also, being the #3 banana behind the 2 biggest stars of all time isn't a bad spot to be. Roddy Piper was always in the shadow of Hogan and Savage popularity wise.
If you want me to say something positive about him he's great for wrestling as a whole as far as what it needs now because Vince McMahon just ain't getting it done he needs to retire. also do you have an implant that just alert you when people are talking about Triple H?
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