The GOAT

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Can you imagine Lesnar in the 80s. Or in the Dangerous Alliance. He would’ve been even more of a revelation than he is now

[IC Champion]

I can easily imagine Lesnar doing a lot of things.

[Emperor Smeat]

The more I think about it, the more a good case could be made that there really isn't a single GOAT for wrestling.

Unlike with the major sports, wrestling has too many dominate styles and none really hold that lasting overall top dominate spot. Like with baseball, the GOAT is a MLB player since MLB has been the top dog of baseball since the late 1800s with some brief exceptions. College, minor leagues, and non-MLB leagues all play the exact same style of baseball as MLB with some very minor differences.

A wrestling expert in Japan would make just as strong a case that the GOAT is a puro wrestler using the same criteria a NWA/territories expert would use to claim that its a 60s-80s US territories era wrestler instead. Same goes for experts for lucha, pre-tv era wrestling, modern era, and others.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Most sports don’t have a GOAT. It’s really only hockey. Every other major sport is debatable.

[Reacher]

Originally Posted by Supreme Olajuwon Most sports don’t have a GOAT. It’s really only hockey. Every other major sport is debatable.

With respect to hockey, there are many people out there that consider Orr to be greater than Wayne and so I’d argue that the NHL is debatable as well. While Gretzky destroyed Lemieux in every statistical category, Lemieux was one of the only players in the NHL to have crazy stats during the “dead puck” era of the NHL (1995-2004), although in Gretzky’s defense, he was a little bit older during this time.

[Ruien]

Originally Posted by Reacher With respect to hockey, there are many people out there that consider Orr to be greater than Wayne and so I’d argue that the NHL is debatable as well. While Gretzky destroyed Lemieux in every statistical category, Lemieux was one of the only players in the NHL to have crazy stats during the “dead puck” era of the NHL (1995-2004), although in Gretzky’s defense, he was a little bit older during this time.

There is no debate for the NFL GOAT anymore. You can't argue against Brady anymore.

Don't think anyone really argues against Babe Ruth for MLB. If Trout ever gets on a winning team he might enter the discussion but he is with the Angels so no one has to worry about that.

NBA is contested by two people with a few long shots thrown in every now and then.

[Reacher]

Originally Posted by Ruien There is no debate for the NFL GOAT anymore. You can't argue against Brady anymore. Don't think anyone really argues against Babe Ruth for MLB. If Trout ever gets on a winning team he might enter the discussion but he is with the Angels so no one has to worry about that. NBA is contested by two people with a few long shots thrown in every now and then.

Agreed about Brady.

I would actually go as far as saying that he may have surpassed Michael Jordan and Pele in the terms of being the GOAT for all sports.

[wwe2222]

I give credit to Hogan kicking off the two biggest booms in wrestling history. The 80s with Hulkamania, and the 90s with the NWO.

The only guy that could've made that NWO angle blow up like it did by turning heel was Hogan. That led into the Monday Night Wars and the Attitude Era. Im not sure you get the 90s boom without Hogan turning.

[Sepholio]

I will never be able to use draw when trying to discuss how individually skilled someone is. It's just not a good metric for me. You could have someone come along right now that is far and away the best ever in the ring, on the mic, has the best look, everything, literally the best at everything and they will never draw anywhere near what people like Austin, Rock or Hogan did. It's a different era now and to discount people because of ratings is insane to me.

[Emperor Smeat]

Originally Posted by Seph I will never be able to use draw when trying to discuss how individually skilled someone is. It's just not a good metric for me. You could have someone come along right now that is far and away the best ever in the ring, on the mic, has the best look, everything, literally the best at everything and they will never draw anywhere near what people like Austin, Rock or Hogan did. It's a different era now and to discount people because of ratings is insane to me.

Forgot where I read it before but if you go by adjusted box office then the GOAT would be either Austin or Hogan since nobody really drew the same level of gate revenues those two did during their time on top at least in the US. Between the two, think Austin outdrew Hogan using the same adjusted metrics.

Cena has both beat based on pure drawing revenues but not when you adjust for inflation and the rising costs of tickets and PPV prices during Cena's era.

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat Forgot where I read it before but if you go by adjusted box office then the GOAT would be either Austin or Hogan since nobody really drew the same level of gate revenues those two did during their time on top at least in the US. Between the two, think Austin outdrew Hogan using the same adjusted metrics. Cena has both beat based on pure drawing revenues but not when you adjust for inflation and the rising costs of tickets and PPV prices during Cena's era.

Cena's longevity definitely makes him a contender IMO. And I think it's debatable he superceded Austin and The Rock. But there is something about Hogan that is just massive in some way. Sure he wasn't a brilliant wrestler but he played his part amazingly. His classic matches are untouchable in their own ways.

[IC Champion]

Well god damn, so was Mark Henry and so was Big Show. Let’s debate their merits as goats next.

[Bad News Gertner]

Originally Posted by IC Champion Well god damn, so was Mark Henry and so was Big Show. Let’s debate their merits as goats next.

There have been plenty of strongmen and giants with just as much if not more success than Mark and Big Show

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Mark Henry wouldve been a legend in the 80s

[Destor]

name of the game is to con people out of their money. in baseball you talk home runs and no hitters. in wrestling you talk tickets. the good ones connect to their audience and you judge that connection off who convinced people to spend money on them. if no one wants to buy what you're selling youre not good at this job.

[IC Champion]

Originally Posted by Destor name of the game is to con people out of their money. in baseball you talk home runs and no hitters. in wrestling you talk tickets. the good ones connect to their audience and you judge that connection off who convinced people to spend money on them. if no one wants to buy what you're selling youre not good at this job.

So are you asking who sold the most tickets and was the biggest draw? Or are you saying that’s what you value?

[Sepholio]

Originally Posted by IC Champion So are you asking who sold the most tickets and was the biggest draw? Or are you saying that’s what you value?

That's where I'm stuck. Because as it is it seems like the GOAT could only ever come from pretty much the 80's or 90's if thats your metric. Everyone else, regardless of skill or talent or anything, is automatically discounted because they will never ever draw anywhere near what the guys at the peak of rasslins popularity did.

[Supreme Olajuwon]

Imagine Mark Henry showing up and just wrecking the Von Erichs by himself because he’s such a monster.

[IC Champion]

Plenty of giants as successful as big show? Name 5.

[Bad News Gertner]

Originally Posted by IC Champion Plenty of giants as successful as big show? Name 5.

Andre the Giant
Undertaker
Don Leo Jonathan
Ernie Ladd
Kane
Killer Kowalski


Other than Eddie, name 1 Luchador/Mexican wrestler that was as successful in the US as Rey

[xrodmuc316]

Originally Posted by Lord Gertner of TPWW Andre the Giant Undertaker Don Leo Jonathan Ernie Ladd Kane Killer Kowalski Other than Eddie, name 1 Luchador/Mexican wrestler that was as successful in the US as Rey

It also depends on how Giant is defined. If we are not going just by height, guys like Yokozuna and Vader and Earthquake are absolutely up there. If just by height, I'd rank Kevin Nash's career above Big Show as well.

[IC Champion]

Money vs art.

[IC Champion]

Do you think being the greatest means you drew the most for the longest period of time, or on top the longest. Or do you value the quality of performance, ei who you may subjectively think is the greatest performer, or you thought was the most entertaining.

[IC Champion]

Or you could be a centrist and think you need to balance both.

[Destor]

Originally Posted by IC Champion

Im saying it has be part of the conversation. It cant just be who made you pop the most. But i dont think its the only metric that matters. what i do think is its the largest part of the pie and by a wide margin. a guy putting on the same caliber matches as bret hart in front of 200 people in a highschool gym clearly isnt the GOAT no matter hard you nut for him. Ignoring drawing power completely isnt reasonable or objective.

[Destor]

and there's just as much art in getting over as there is in clever chain wrestling. the only difference is you dont respect one for whatever reason

[Destor]

if the conversation was purely money it would be either hogan who drew the most money for the longest time or austin who drew the most per night ever but i definitely think the conversation is more nuanced than purely gates.

[Destor]

(and i think i summed up my thoughts pretty well on pg1)

[Jordan]

Hogan made events bigger that's why I picked him.

[Destor]

Hogan is definitely a guy no one can dismiss out of hand. Any GOAT conversation not only has to include him it has to actively defend why he isnt at the top of the list.

[Destor]

to circle back to the comment that "only guys from the 80s/90s can be the GOAT if you go by the gate" id like to point out that the WWF was going under before Austin got hot. a show no one was watching to the hottest act of all time. Thats WHY he's GOAT tier. he got so outrageously over that he turned the business around...and thats why no one today can crack that list.


they arent over.

[xrodmuc316]

I think what we are seeing in this thread is exactly why even in the business they qualify greatest of all time.

Austin is easily the GOAT drawing star within the industry. Nobody in wrestling reached a higher peak.

Hulk is still the GOAT associated/recognizable to the average person.

Shawn is the GOAT in ring worker.

Flair is the GOAT successful Pro Wrestler.

Cena is the GOAT successful Sports Entertainer.

Undertaker is the GOAT character.

Jericho is the GOAT at reinventing his character.

Rock is the GOAT for biggest star that came from wrestling.

Angle is the GOAT for most successful athlete that became a wrestler.

Lesnar is the GOAT for most successful athlete after he left pro wrestling.

That is leaving out HUGE names that were great, had success in and out of the ring, and we're good enough to be in that discussion.

It's why I picked Rock, because he was near the top of every qualification the other wrestlers talk about.

[Bad News Gertner]

More about presentation

[Sixx]

Hogan. Even my mom knows who he is and she knows nothing about wrestling.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I have a trouble thinking in terms of absolute greatest, because there are too many metrics go crossover, so it is where you put emphasis. I put it on how good business is under you, because that’s the whole reason wrestling exists. It doesn’t matter if you tick all the other boxes — good look, good ring stuff, good talker, etc. — if people don’t give a shit, you aren’t clicking as a professional wrestler.

But that gets hard to dissect too. There are guys that drew everywhere as special attractions. There are guys who turned around shitty businesses. There are guys who did respectable business on top. There are guys who killed it on top in smaller markets, which is actually kind of more impressive in many ways — since you could argue the case that you’re more over per capita.

But then there is the quality of and timelessness of your work. There is how much everything you do stands out.


I don’t feel stupid saying names like Terry Funk, Ric Flair, Steve Austin and Hulk Hogan. The only name that I would throw out that hasn’t been said already, is maybe someone from Japan or even Jerry Lawler in Memphis. It feels like it’s own category though — maybe not GOAT. But there’s something about being so good you don’t need to go anywhere else that I feel deserves appreciation.

[Jordan]

I feel that as great as he is, it's easy to disqualify Terry Funk from GOAT. He is obviously a total legend and was awesome pretty much his whole career. He played his part perfectly always. The thing that knocks him off the top of the list for me is that he wasn't a MAJOR draw. Could you honestly say he was the reason 5-10,000 people went to the arena? As awesome as he was in Japan, those people would've been in the seats regardless, and likely the same for his NWA/WCW/ECW days. I think that he was on the cusp of MAJOR draw at times but ultimately was more of an attraction when compared to someone like Flair. Probably because the bulk of his career he worked heel and heels tended to your the territory's more than babyfaces who are clearly set up to be more successful in GOAT talks. All of that aside it's a real fucking shame that Vince didn't want to push Funk vs Hogan in the early days. It could've been so good.

[xrodmuc316]

Originally Posted by Jordan X I feel that as great as he is, it's easy to disqualify Terry Funk from GOAT. He is obviously a total legend and was awesome pretty much his whole career. He played his part perfectly always. The thing that knocks him off the top of the list for me is that he wasn't a MAJOR draw. Could you honestly say he was the reason 5-10,000 people went to the arena? As awesome as he was in Japan, those people would've been in the seats regardless, and likely the same for his NWA/WCW/ECW days. I think that he was on the cusp of MAJOR draw at times but ultimately was more of an attraction when compared to someone like Flair. Probably because the bulk of his career he worked heel and heels tended to your the territory's more than babyfaces who are clearly set up to be more successful in GOAT talks. All of that aside it's a real fucking shame that Vince didn't want to push Funk vs Hogan in the early days. It could've been so good.

It's a great point, and I think there are certainly different perceptions. Wrestling fans and people in the industry know what a legend he is.

On the other hand, people from the outside world would not know Terry Funk because not everybody can become a part of pop culture. Somebody who was never a wrestling fan is not going to know who Terry Funk is, but they will know Hogan, Austin, Flair, Rock, Cena, etc.

[Bad News Gertner]

Originally Posted by Jordan X I feel that as great as he is, it's easy to disqualify Terry Funk from GOAT. He is obviously a total legend and was awesome pretty much his whole career. He played his part perfectly always. The thing that knocks him off the top of the list for me is that he wasn't a MAJOR draw. Could you honestly say he was the reason 5-10,000 people went to the arena? As awesome as he was in Japan, those people would've been in the seats regardless, and likely the same for his NWA/WCW/ECW days. I think that he was on the cusp of MAJOR draw at times but ultimately was more of an attraction when compared to someone like Flair. Probably because the bulk of his career he worked heel and heels tended to your the territory's more than babyfaces who are clearly set up to be more successful in GOAT talks. All of that aside it's a real fucking shame that Vince didn't want to push Funk vs Hogan in the early days. It could've been so good.

I can definitely say Terry was a great draw. He wouldn't have gotten a 14 month run with the NWA title if he wasn't. I've seen numbers but I gotta find them. I know Funk vs Flair was the highest drawing WCW feud from 89 to 96 and he and Onita drew 41,000 and drew 28,000 on top of an IWA show

[drave]

Originally Posted by Lord Gertner of TPWW I can definitely say Terry was a great draw. He wouldn't have gotten a 14 month run with the NWA title if he wasn't. I've seen numbers but I gotta find them. I know Funk vs Flair was the highest drawing WCW feud from 89 to 96 and he and Onita drew 41,000 and drew 28,000 on top of an IWA show

Fuck me, that's one helluva stat right there. Never knew that, but dayam!

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by Lord Gertner of TPWW I can definitely say Terry was a great draw. He wouldn't have gotten a 14 month run with the NWA title if he wasn't. I've seen numbers but I gotta find them. I know Funk vs Flair was the highest drawing WCW feud from 89 to 96 and he and Onita drew 41,000 and drew 28,000 on top of an IWA show

I'll be waiting for the NWA numbers please have them on my desk by midday.