American Daniel Bryan Danielson Dragon

[Destor]

i remember when lesnar beat joe and everyone said it made joe look weak becauae it only took one f5. suddenly a guys finish wasnt enough you needed at least 5 finishes to finish a match.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Destor i remember when lesnar beat joe and everyone said it made joe look weak becauae it only took one f5. suddenly a guys finish wasnt enough you needed at least 5 finishes to finish a match.

This is such an annoying modern trope. I think a big part of where wrestling lost me is when I saw a match and someone hit their “finisher.” The other wrestler kicked out, because of course they did but it then cut to these fans putting their hands on their face and acting like it was the most surreal thing ever. How could you possibly be surprised at that point? I realized I didn’t want to be a wrestling fan anymore in that moment. Just one of those things that tries to embarrass you.

Beyond the execution of these moves, is it even hard to kick out of an alleged finish by three? That’s not the skilful part of a match. There’s no “art” to that. The skill is in actually building a story and context to the moves.

[Tom Guycott]

Originally Posted by Mr. Nerfect I’ve watched Bryan and Lesnar so many times. Proof that wrestling can be good.

Originally Posted by XL It absolutely is. It’s also why fans get frustrated with Lesnar; we all know he can do that.

Originally Posted by Mr. Nerfect Eh, Brock’s usually pretty great, in my opinion. He makes stuff count when it’s important to. I think people get bogged down on internet talking points. “He doesn’t work hard” or enough. He doesn’t like wrestling. He’s an asshole. That sort of stuff. When it comes to his actual work — he’s basically peerless. Just seeing him sell for Bryan, or work in the 2020 Rumble, or him walk out with the Money in the Bank briefcase...he’s perfect. For all the talk of WWE hot-shotting and them burning through everything they have, it’s funny to think that Brock hasn’t had a free televised match since his return almost a decade ago. Yes, there was that “match” with Kofi Kingston, which was basically an angle to switch the belt. But he hasn’t gone out in gear, presented as an actual match participant and worked his magic on television since 2004. And I don’t think the guy has worked a tag since he’s been back? Imagine Brock taking a hot tag or being in a Survivor Series Eliminator. If Vince gets REALLY desperate, you’ll probably see Brock Lesnar working on TV and being the best thing in wrestling. They’ve got so much unturned soil with him even a decade into this run. They’re careful with him.

There are any number of people who have "it" in them, but for whatever reason, don't get to or, more often in the case of WWE booking, don't have to. One of the great "modern" examples of this is CM Punk vs Cena. Most other Cena matches, he was essentially on autopilot. Countout recovery, 5 Moves of Doom, 3 count, done. He actually got to do shit in his match with Punk. He sold more than he usually did, his offense was a little more varied. It was just... different. It was refreshing. But it was also not something he needed to do all the time because he was able to coast for YEARS on just being over and "the indifferent babyface who doesn't give a shit if you cheer or boo".

Brock is similar in that he "gets it", but unless he's into what he's doing, he seems to not give a shit. He doesn't *have* to do anything, and he usually won't. His second match with Goldberg was WORLDS better than the first one ages ago, and Brock LOST in short order via spectacular in-ring storytelling on Brock's part. He was super cocky. He underestimated this past-his-prime old man. He got stuck before he was ready, he was hurt and possibly shouldn't have competed, and then he was capitalized on. That whole thing hinged on Brock selling everyting: his hubris, his shock, his injury, all of that. Imagine if Brock didn't feel like selling? If he didn't care or display the abilities that he has at that moment, that whole thing would have gone to shit and would have been about as fondly remembered as that first match but without a Stone Cold audible to save the day.

Brock can and has gotten by on his look and aura, but he's great when he turns it up. Truthfully, I'd even put Randy Orton in there, because there's a lot of his career where he's been on autopilot like Cena or exudes levels of "fuck this, I'm not digging it" like Lesnar.

But in the end, it's almost unfair to criticize Brock for this, because like the other two I mentioned, he doesn't have to do anything at a high level all the time for WWE. He's over just being Brock, so what exactly is his motivation for going out and doing more outside of the satisfaction of doing it? Yes, it can be frustrating to watch as a fan sometimes, but people will tune in to watch Brock be Brock either way until the day WWE does something that is looking less and less impossible by the week and somehow, some way, fuck up Brock.

Originally Posted by Destor i remember when lesnar beat joe and everyone said it made joe look weak becauae it only took one f5. suddenly a guys finish wasnt enough you needed at least 5 finishes to finish a match.

Originally Posted by Mr. Nerfect This is such an annoying modern trope. I think a big part of where wrestling lost me is when I saw a match and someone hit their “finisher.” The other wrestler kicked out, because of course they did but it then cut to these fans putting their hands on their face and acting like it was the most surreal thing ever. How could you possibly be surprised at that point? I realized I didn’t want to be a wrestling fan anymore in that moment. Just one of those things that tries to embarrass you. Beyond the execution of these moves, is it even hard to kick out of an alleged finish by three? That’s not the skilful part of a match. There’s no “art” to that. The skill is in actually building a story and context to the moves.

I was/am in that camp, but it wasn't merely because "hurr durr one finisher"... it also was another example of WWE saying something without saying it.

Yes, there was (and to an extent still is, just not nearly as much) an epidemic of false finishes of 800 finishers being thown and everyone kicking out all the time. However, they chose *that* match to start scaling back? There were other problems that compounded this as well.

At that particular time, there was nobody really ready or built up to be even percieved as ready to be a threat to Brock. Then that whole angle with Joe happened. He's verbally sparring with Heyman, he isn't backing down from Brock. Hell, he's actively calling out and antagonizing Brock. He's getting the audience hyped and invested. This could be the gladiator who will stop the at that time Conqueror ... and then he loses. Not even in an epic fashion, or with a fuck finish, or having to be brutally put down because he's that big of a threat at an anticipated PPV match. No, he just gets a single F5 and pinned clean in the middle like he was some random jobber in a midcard RAW match.

It was kind of a middle finger moment, made even moreso because of the subsequent injury. A better finish could have been played up like Brock beat him, and put him on the shelf, and Joe's going to come back for vengeance... but instead, he was just disappeared. They told everyone that he was just another in a line of people Brock would just "one and done". He wasn't being anointed or pushed. That's it, Joe, thank's for playing, and here's a wonderful parting gift: the home version of our game called "Perception is reality, pal!"