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Old 09-01-2017, 02:17 AM   #1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAMN iNATOR View Post
Yes, extremely.



Yeah, she's been booked so poorly, what with getting to successfully defend the RAW Women's Championship @ WrestleMania 33. Stop with this.
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Old 08-29-2017, 03:43 PM   #2
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Some good discussion here and good points, but posting a video of some Cena fans who bought into his whole message, doesn't win me over that he was a big enough star to carry a whole era.

It also has nothing to do with him as a backstage personality or presence in the company. He might do an awful lot of PR good, but has he ever made another guy? What star has he pushed to the next level?

He isn't a big enough star just to eat guys at the top of the card like Hogan did. Hogan can get off with saying a lot of guys aren't ready, but even he eventually ended up hurting the business.

My question is, Cena's star never shone as bright as a Hogan or Austin. If he has backstage pull, has he done damage?
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Old 08-29-2017, 06:21 PM   #3
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My response, your an idiot. Everyone posted a ton of information you are glossing over.
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Old 08-30-2017, 12:26 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruien View Post
My response, your an idiot. Everyone posted a ton of information you are glossing over.
I tend to gloss over posts by someone whose initial response was "No"

Just because I didn't see anything that convinced me otherwise doesn't mean I am an idiot. Board is getting to the stage where it's impossible to have a different opinion or debate. Get risked being called "an idiot" by some aggressive twat
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Old 08-30-2017, 12:30 PM   #5
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Only joking of course!

But seriously, your second post compared him to Hogan, Austin etc... And my whole argument is based on the fact that he isn't on that level and the company has suffered for it.

Same reason why feeding a bunch of guys to someone who isn't a megastar and doesn't pull massive numbers, might not be a great idea.

Hogan doing politics and a Cena doing politics are very different things. He shouldn't have the same pull as a Hogan or an Austin, is my point.

Other posts have been good and made some good points worth considering in the discussion. I just think that even with the good that he does, even in an era of bad booking, he could still be harming the product potentially.

Only potentially, but think it was worth discussing and it's on a second page, so it obviously has been.
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Old 09-01-2017, 07:12 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maluco View Post
I tend to gloss over posts by someone whose initial response was "No"

Just because I didn't see anything that convinced me otherwise doesn't mean I am an idiot. Board is getting to the stage where it's impossible to have a different opinion or debate. Get risked being called "an idiot" by some aggressive twat
These boards are often not the place for logic and reason. You get that everywhere, but some other places just have more members, so by sheer shock and awe you can find better conversation just based on the odds. But posters like Destor, #1-wwf-fan, Gertner and BigCrippyZ are wonderful.
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Old 08-30-2017, 07:23 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruien View Post
My response, your an idiot. Everyone posted a ton of information you are glossing over.
When calling someone an idiot, you should probably spell "you're" right. Just a heads up.
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Old 08-30-2017, 10:53 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixx View Post
When calling someone an idiot, you should probably spell "you're" right. Just a heads up.
Oh snap!
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Old 08-29-2017, 10:48 PM   #9
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Overall?
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Old 08-30-2017, 12:38 AM   #10
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Bayley just isn't that good
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Old 08-30-2017, 07:29 PM   #11
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Haha
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Old 08-30-2017, 10:58 PM   #12
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I think the question "What stars has John Cena helped make in the past 12 years" is a very interesting question. Who has he "made"?
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Old 08-30-2017, 11:00 PM   #13
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He "helped" Edge, CM Punk, and Daniel Bryan...... dunno if I would go so far as to say he "made" them.
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Old 08-30-2017, 11:26 PM   #14
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Aj Styles? Prob Styles' best feud by far and he's put him over multiple times
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Old 08-30-2017, 11:46 PM   #15
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All Cena can really do is put on great matches and agree to put guys over. And he's done that way more than he probably should. Past that, it's up to WWE to not drop the ball.
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Old 09-01-2017, 07:08 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
All Cena can really do is put on great matches and agree to put guys over. And he's done that way more than he probably should. Past that, it's up to WWE to not drop the ball.
This is true, but I don't know if the argument being forward is "John Cena is entirely to blame" or whether or not it's "the effect of John Cena's push" is to blame. We're down to semantics on that front, but I don't think you'd disagree that the Cenazoic Period is less fruitful than others headed by a "mega-star."

I mean, that itself seems like too obvious a point to make, but I do find it interesting that his current greatness (and the WWE, frankly, needing him), kind of retroactively paints over the years and years and years that it really wasn't working the way things like that are supposed to work.
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Old 08-30-2017, 11:48 PM   #17
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Accurate^^^
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Old 09-01-2017, 02:05 AM   #18
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Old 09-01-2017, 02:08 AM   #19
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Old 09-02-2017, 02:29 AM   #20
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#ABTWasRight
About what? Nothing ever?
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Old 09-02-2017, 01:11 AM   #21
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But then there are times where you just have to go the "you're an idiot" route.

Like when DAMN iNATOR uses an "lol so dumb" sarcastic tone while trying to argue that Bayley's face run has been "extremely successful" and well booked.
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Old 09-02-2017, 02:33 AM   #22
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But then there are times where you just have to go the "you're an idiot" route.

Like when DAMN iNATOR uses an "lol so dumb" sarcastic tone while trying to argue that Bayley's face run has been "extremely successful" and well booked.
ONLY things I'd have done differently are have her retain in her hometown v. Alexa and write her babyface promos that still allow her charisma to shine through without all the repetitive "I'm just so happy to be here, yay! Unicorns and sunshine and rainbows!" lines.
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Old 09-02-2017, 11:34 AM   #23
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Quote:
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But then there are times where you just have to go the "you're an idiot" route.

Like when DAMN iNATOR uses an "lol so dumb" sarcastic tone while trying to argue that Bayley's face run has been "extremely successful" and well booked.
She won the title so obviously its been super successful. She has had the belt what more do you want
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Old 09-02-2017, 01:30 AM   #24
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I think Dave Meltzer said it best when he said Bayley is more gullible than Surfer Sting.
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Old 09-02-2017, 02:54 AM   #25
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Why would you do anything differently? Her run has been extremely successful, right?

Why mess with something that's going so amazingly well? You might fuck it up and she'd start getting booed or something.
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Old 09-02-2017, 06:50 AM   #26
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Aren't almost all her promos along the lines of that stuff?
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Old 09-02-2017, 12:31 PM   #27
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Cena has lost more than any franchise player the WWE has ever had. Bruno never lost. Backlund went from 1977 until his loss to Diesel in 95 without losing a single MATCH at MSG. Think about that. Hogan is Hogan. Nothing to add. Stone Cold wasn't putting people over left and right. The Rock did his share of losing but not to Cena's level. Cena is just a wrestler. He can't control his opponents mic skills, in ring skills, charisma, and what direction the writing staff goes. He works hard and more often than not has amazing matches. Everything else is out of his hands.
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Old 09-02-2017, 04:23 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Bad News Gertner View Post
Cena has lost more than any franchise player the WWE has ever had. Bruno never lost. Backlund went from 1977 until his loss to Diesel in 95 without losing a single MATCH at MSG. Think about that. Hogan is Hogan. Nothing to add. Stone Cold wasn't putting people over left and right. The Rock did his share of losing but not to Cena's level.
All those guys outside of Rock and Cena barely jobbed and what do you know... they were all massively over as babyfaces for years. Cena jobbed left and right and the crowd turned on him. Rock jobbed left and right... and the crowd turned on him. It's almost as if you can be the most charismatic guy of all time but if you're booked as a loser, the crowd doesn't get behind you. HMMMMMM.
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Old 09-02-2017, 06:08 PM   #29
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All those guys outside of Rock and Cena barely jobbed and what do you know... they were all massively over as babyfaces for years. Cena jobbed left and right and the crowd turned on him. Rock jobbed left and right... and the crowd turned on him. It's almost as if you can be the most charismatic guy of all time but if you're booked as a loser, the crowd doesn't get behind you. HMMMMMM.
Do you genuinely believe that people turned on Cena because he jobbed a few times? Or Rock for that matter?
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Old 09-02-2017, 09:45 PM   #30
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Cena has lost more than any franchise player the WWE has ever had. Bruno never lost. Backlund went from 1977 until his loss to Diesel in 95 without losing a single MATCH at MSG. Think about that. Hogan is Hogan. Nothing to add. Stone Cold wasn't putting people over left and right. The Rock did his share of losing but not to Cena's level. Cena is just a wrestler. He can't control his opponents mic skills, in ring skills, charisma, and what direction the writing staff goes. He works hard and more often than not has amazing matches. Everything else is out of his hands.
To be fair a bit, Cena has also wrestled a lot more matches at least on tv per year than most of those past franchise players. Think his yearly win percentage and yearly clean loss tally is still up there with those past greats.

In terms of comparisons with Hogan, Cena usually wrestled more on TV in a year than Hogan did over the course of several years.

Do agree about the stuff regarding him having little to no control over how Creative handles his losses afterwards. For example, Nakamura beating Cena for the #1 contender spot on Smackdown should have been treated as a rub by Cena to Nakamura's eventual title win at SummerSlam. Instead Nakamura lost to Jinder in the usual fashion and decreased the value of Cena's loss earlier.
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Old 09-03-2017, 09:50 AM   #31
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To be fair a bit, Cena has also wrestled a lot more matches at least on tv per year than most of those past franchise players. Think his yearly win percentage and yearly clean loss tally is still up there with those past greats.

In terms of comparisons with Hogan, Cena usually wrestled more on TV in a year than Hogan did over the course of several years.

Do agree about the stuff regarding him having little to no control over how Creative handles his losses afterwards. For example, Nakamura beating Cena for the #1 contender spot on Smackdown should have been treated as a rub by Cena to Nakamura's eventual title win at SummerSlam. Instead Nakamura lost to Jinder in the usual fashion and decreased the value of Cena's loss earlier.
Oh yes definitley. Different era completely. You'd have to start realistically in the mid 90's to compare eras to Cena, although I'd have to do some more in depth research to compare Austin, Rock and Cena. Bruno lost once in a blue moon as did Hogan. Backlund never did, but they were mostly in a era where the Champ hardly wrestled on T.V. Those three never did House Show pinfall losses either
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Old 09-02-2017, 12:57 PM   #32
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Agreed with big stinky Gertner. To blame Cena is ludicrous. IMO part of the success of the Hogan era was not only did u have Hulk on top but u had every territory's main event in your mid card in meaningful angles. Now nobody is a star.

The Austin and Rock era benefited from being insanely competitive and having to outdo the comp. Even with a midcard with crap workers, the main event scene was hotter than almost ever.

Then there was some flipflopping til Cena took the reigns and fans have already seen that kind of franchise vanilla babyface, and they haveny done enougj creatively with anything from mid card to main event to make people give a shit.
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Old 09-02-2017, 01:58 PM   #33
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Bob Backlund lost one match from 1977 to 1984. Bruno would get pinned in tag matches while Champ, but Backlund didn't even do that.

1 loss and it wasn't even a pinfall or submission (His manager Arnold Skaaland threw in the towel against Iron Shiek in December of 1983)
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Old 09-02-2017, 02:23 PM   #34
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Bob Backlund lost one match from 1977 to 1984. Bruno would get pinned in tag matches while Champ, but Backlund didn't even do that.

1 loss and it wasn't even a pinfall or submission (His manager Arnold Skaaland threw in the towel against Iron Shiek in December of 1983)
Lol remember how much they played this up going in ss 94 and wm 11?
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Old 09-02-2017, 02:11 PM   #35
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Bayley is just terrible on the mic. She doesn't connect with her fans.
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Old 09-02-2017, 03:01 PM   #36
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I wasn't really watching a lot of wrestling from like 94-95. Just the major ppv's. I've watched a lot of stuff from that era since then, but completely out of order.
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Old 09-02-2017, 04:30 PM   #37
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Those are great posts by Gertner and Dale, and I think the focus really is on the booking. Whilst going further back, it is hard to compare today's product to the 80's where it was easier to protect top guys and have them safely defend titles against lesser opposition in front of different audiences with no internet coverage.

I think we can all agree that the era, the quantity of matches, the internet coverage and the sub-par booking are all massive contributers, more so than one guy and his limited input. However older guys benefitted, it still stands to reason that they were all more popular than John Cena in terms of numbers of people who came to see them consistently. Although I admit it is hard to measure, especially when it is hard to guage who people are paying to see exactly, like Dale said.

There is still room, however, for him to have done his own damage and made significant contributions to keeping certain people down. It might not have mattered much because of the inept nature of the booking anyhow.

But for my money, he hasn't really successfully elevated anyone through a series of matches (just look at what Jericho did for Owens when he was back. The best performers get it done no matter what) and there are too many rumours and stories about his pull backstage to completely write off the possibility that he has damaged or halted quite a few guys progress.

Not the main contributer by a long shot, I agree, not even close. But all good and top rate No.1 guy, he has never been.
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Old 09-02-2017, 06:43 PM   #38
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Yeah the jobbing has little to do with it. Just uninteresting booking
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Old 09-02-2017, 06:50 PM   #39
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The jobbing has a shitload to do with it. lol

Do you think they turned on The Rock because he was awful?

When a guy cuts promos where he's talking shit and acting like a badass and then loses constantly, his character comes off like an unlikable, phony dipshit.

If Bruno, Backlund, Hogan or Austin were getting beaten constantly they wouldn't have been nearly as big of a deal. Not even close.
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Old 09-02-2017, 09:20 PM   #40
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The jobbing has a shitload to do with it. lol

Do you think they turned on The Rock because he was awful?

When a guy cuts promos where he's talking shit and acting like a badass and then loses constantly, his character comes off like an unlikable, phony dipshit.

If Bruno, Backlund, Hogan or Austin were getting beaten constantly they wouldn't have been nearly as big of a deal. Not even close.
Turned on rocky cuz the face act was getting a tiuch stale and they knew he was leaving to do movies
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