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Old 08-13-2004, 03:36 AM   #41
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If Babe Ruth and Roger Maris were playing in this era with the same numbers they put up, they'd be accused just as much as Bonds, Sosa and McGwire are.

They could have been just as "dirty" as most people suspect the latter three are.

I just think people don't want to concede that, hey, players can train hard and have REALLY good years, naturally.

Of course, i'm going to have to eat my words if (namely) Bonds is found to have been roided up, but for now, I truly believe he is just a good ballplayer.
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Old 08-13-2004, 06:42 AM   #42
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Isn't it a bit funny how all of a sudden since they introuded the limited drugs testing no one has come close to 60HR's this season.
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Old 08-13-2004, 08:22 AM   #43
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Indeed, although i'm not a fan of throwing accusations at everyone who produced a huge home run year.

If Maris and Ruth were both on juice why did they only hit 60 once each? Maris never came close again infact. It doesn't make sense to do it for one year and just stop
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Old 08-13-2004, 03:03 PM   #44
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Exclamation
If you really think steroids are that powerful
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Old 08-13-2004, 03:04 PM   #45
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What?

No ones said anything about the potency of steroids dipshit
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Old 08-13-2004, 03:14 PM   #46
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That is a totally relevant comment, actually, given the discussion.
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Old 08-13-2004, 05:30 PM   #47
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My point was if all these guys achievments are being diminished and put down to the possibility of steroid use, why didn't they both produce 3 or 4 60 homer seasons rather than just the one, which would merely indicate a huge tear and a hot (ter than usual) bat for a season, i wasn't talking about how powerful they were, i did word it wrong and made it sound like they were doing it for one off season and suddenly being packed to fuck, MANY APOLOGIES BCWWF.
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Old 08-13-2004, 05:46 PM   #48
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That makes less sense then the first time
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Old 08-13-2004, 05:49 PM   #49
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I don't even know if we're talking about the same thing.

You said
Quote:
No ones said anything about the potency of steroids dipshit
And I said that its sad if people think that steroids can singlehandedly add 35 home runs to a guys average.
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Old 08-13-2004, 05:51 PM   #50
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*capslock ^^^

And yeah i agree. I didn't mean that, but reading it back i can see thats what it looks like. By doing it for one year and then stopping i was referring to the smashing of many home runs not taking roids.
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Old 08-13-2004, 06:08 PM   #51
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So Barry had one extremely productive year hitting home runs. Look at Maris

Maris' home run totals:
19
28
16
39
61
33
23
26
8
13
9
5

Maris only had 275 career homers
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Old 08-13-2004, 07:34 PM   #52
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Jesus Shuttlesworth got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Jesus Shuttlesworth got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Jesus Shuttlesworth got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Jesus Shuttlesworth got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Jesus Shuttlesworth got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Jesus Shuttlesworth got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Jesus Shuttlesworth got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Jesus Shuttlesworth got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Jesus Shuttlesworth got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Jesus Shuttlesworth got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Jesus Shuttlesworth got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Jesus Shuttlesworth got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
Bonds has gotten progressively bigger over the years, its not like he went from 160 lbs one season then to 250 lbs the next year or something.
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Old 08-13-2004, 08:06 PM   #53
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Same with Sammy Sosa
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Old 08-13-2004, 08:10 PM   #54
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Sammy Sosa has already gotten caught cheating though plus he hurt his back sneezing? Come on...Plus he flipped out when somebody offered him a drug test.

I think there is a much bigger chance that Sosa is juicin' then Bonds IMO
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Old 08-13-2004, 08:18 PM   #55
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I'm inclined to agree, but i'm not gonna brand him until tests come back positive...The chances of them even making him take a test are slim obviously
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Old 08-13-2004, 08:20 PM   #56
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The home run record should have an asterisk because players are pumping themselves with steroids now.
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Old 08-13-2004, 08:25 PM   #57
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Home Runs in a Single Season
Barry Bonds 73*
Mark McGuire 70*
Sammy Sosa 6?*

*These records may or may not have been inflated due to the fact that these players may or may not have been using steroids, although there is still no proof. Take notice.
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Old 08-13-2004, 08:36 PM   #58
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I think Sosa's highest was 64
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Old 08-13-2004, 10:04 PM   #59
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Woohoo! rampant speculation as grounds for a witch hunt!

Wouldn't have expected Moonax to use the "evidence" of "isn't it convenent that..." pretty weak stuff, as is evidenced by Maris' record being brought up.

The solution? Bring everyone back to the Ruth era of technology, nutrition, and physical education. Make them modern-day Amish. Otherwise, you might as well asterisk any new record. Klepto said it best. Even the ball's easier to hit a home run off of.

Or maybe we just accuse everyone who has a streak of being on drugs.After all, what more proof do you need? It's too convenient.

Or, you could just treat the game as a living, breathing, evolving being.

Sure, the MLB's pathetic standards on drug testing are essentially silent consent. You know what? If they're not going to test, then it's all pretty much speculation. Frankly, I follow baseball to see more than who can get the biggest tear of home runs anyway, and records are records...Some are flukes, some are skill, but they really don't make or break the game.
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Old 08-13-2004, 10:06 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ct2k
I think Sosa's highest was 64

66.
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Old 08-13-2004, 11:57 PM   #61
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people also seem to forget, more home runs have been hit since more teams have been added and you get weaker pitching.

most 3-4-5 starters wouldn't have played 20yrs ago.

There's no proof they juiced, so no *
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Old 08-14-2004, 04:42 AM   #62
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Exclamation
Kane Knight
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Old 08-14-2004, 08:27 AM   #63
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Kane Knight once again you miss the original point. It's a D I S C U S S I O N.

Well actually you miss the point of the discussion. I see no evidence of a witch-hunt but a discussion of an issue in baseball. Nor do I have any position eitherway. I am interested in the discussion and people's points of view. I am, because I can, playing devils advocate.

MLB's argument behind putting an asterix by Maris's name was that he played more games in a season than Ruth and therefore recieved an unfair advantage - although a legal advantage.

When McGwire broke the record he was using Andro. He was open about this and its benefits. This gave him an advantage - at the time a legal advantage. If MLB is going to have an asterix by Maris for legal assistance then should McGwire's record have an asterix for also recieving legal assistance.

VEL. You of course mention expansion. Again the dilution of pitching rotations is something that will have been to the advantage of hitters. So should it be asterixed as a 'post-expansion' HR record.

Should there have even been an asterix in the first place by Maris's record?
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Old 08-14-2004, 10:08 AM   #64
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I don't think Maris's record should've had an asterix at all in the first place.
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Old 08-14-2004, 03:24 PM   #65
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More games in a season is worthy of an *, because the length of the season can be proven that they were different. If you want to start going into other differences, you could make a list of about 100 little details that are different, but you don't.
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Old 08-14-2004, 03:40 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonax
Kane Knight once again you miss the original point. It's a D I S C U S S I O N.
No shit, Sherlock.
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Old 08-14-2004, 03:43 PM   #67
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BCWWF why are more games more of an advantage than a drug like Andro? McGwire took it because he felt that it gave him an advantage to make taking it worthwhile.
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Old 08-14-2004, 03:55 PM   #68
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Simple solution: Ban anything that would give you an advantage.

Chemicals, dieting, lifestyle changes...
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Old 08-14-2004, 04:02 PM   #69
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Explain how taking steriods is the same as dieting?

Life style changes? explain.
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Old 08-14-2004, 04:05 PM   #70
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Didn't say it was the same. Said it provided advantages.

So does improved equipment.
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Old 08-14-2004, 04:14 PM   #71
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You were stating that dieting was of a comparable advantage to taking steriods. Can you explain why dieting should be banned if steriods are banned.

In some sports where equipment can provide a significant advantage such as golf and cycling them monitor technical improvements and ban certain technical changes.

This is why they don't use aluminum bats in the major leagues.
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Old 08-14-2004, 04:21 PM   #72
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You do relise that the quality of equipment HAS changed in MBL since the era of Ruth, right? That current balls are easier to hit further, as an example?

Aluminum bats not being allowed doesn't change that the sport has evolved and will continue to evolve.

Meanwhile, I didn't say diet was comparable. I said it was an advantage. Maybe I should spell D I S C U S S I O N out real slow for you.

How far do you take the barring of advantages, praytell?
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Old 08-14-2004, 04:35 PM   #73
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Not only that, theres all kinds of shit you can take that is legal, walk into a GNC and you can get any suppliment you want. Science is continually making advantages in health and hygeine, if you don't think that affects anything than you are blind.


I don't understand how you try to justify that your speculation is just as strong as given fact.
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Old 08-14-2004, 04:47 PM   #74
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Sorry, how is it speculation that Andro improves muscle bulk? It wasn't banned on a whim.

If you play a sport competitively then you will find that the majority of suppliments and indeed over the counter medicines are banned because the substances within them can give you an advantage.

I difference in the way in which balls are made is noted in the fact that there is a 'dead ball era' which is a recognition of that fact.

That you recognise that there is a significant difference between diet and steriods demonstrates why a distinction between steriods are banned and dieting is not.
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Old 08-14-2004, 04:55 PM   #75
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Do you agree with this statement?

Athletes today are better equipt, in better shape, and trained better.
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Old 08-14-2004, 04:56 PM   #76
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Back then they used balls for longer too, they got battered to shit before they changed.

And Roger Maris had no control over the expanding of the leagues and more games being played, everyone in that era had the same advantage over Ruth. McGwire took the Andro knowing it would give him an advantage over most other players - Difference

Also, why is it that only Maris's record had a asterix for games when McGwire, Sosa and Bonds all played in the same expanded seasons?
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Old 08-14-2004, 05:19 PM   #77
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Maris and Bonds don't play in the same ballparks either, should that be taken into account? I don't think any of the stuff discussed in this topic makes any record deserve an "*"

I do think the things discussed in this topic help you form OPINIONS on the best HR hitters of all time and stuff but I don't think it should have anything to do with records
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Old 08-14-2004, 05:20 PM   #78
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Also I don't think Maris's record should have had an asterix
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Old 08-14-2004, 05:21 PM   #79
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If it deserved it for him playing in a longer season, Sosa, McGwire and Bonds's marks should all be asterix'd for that too.
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Old 08-14-2004, 05:23 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonax
VEL. You of course mention expansion. Again the dilution of pitching rotations is something that will have been to the advantage of hitters. So should it be asterixed as a 'post-expansion' HR record.

Should there have even been an asterix in the first place by Maris's record?
I say yes on Marris record assuming he broke it in more games then there were in a season when Ruth played because it gave him more chances.

If he broke it in less games then Ruth or even less game then in a season when Ruth broke it, I wouldn't have put the *.

I know, someones going to say "well, if we argue chances, then shouldn't we look at bats and/or games played" No, because there are some intangibles you can't judge/compare, pitching, parks, schedule, teams etc... however something like games in a season is an advantage.

Also, the Andro was legal when Mac did it and would have been legal for Ruth, it's not a "new advantage".

Now, lets say MLB goes to Aluminum bats and someone breaks the record, that would be a "new advantage".

As for "roids" or substances that were illegal at the time of the record being broken, if there's proof, I don't put an * I strip them of the record, you cheat, you don't get the record.

Mac was on Andro, it was legal.

Bonds may have been on Roids, but you not found guilty on suspision. Now, if it comes out in the Balco trials that Bonds bought and took illegal substances and records show he did it when he broke the record, I take him out of the book.
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