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Old 07-01-2005, 09:17 PM   #41
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Christian rox my sox
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Old 07-01-2005, 09:26 PM   #42
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Way to sum up there RDD....

Seriouslly though, who would've thunk that Christian, a dude who to be perfectly honest with you, I would've never thought he was going to get out of the Tag Team stigma. Now he's very popular, getting super skilled on the mic, and has a decent arsenal. Plus he's really got a good look going for him that I doubt he'll let go.

And I think RDD really summed it up.
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Old 07-01-2005, 09:28 PM   #43
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I'm interested to here The Prodigy's picks for whom he think should be future main eventers.
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Old 07-01-2005, 09:50 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Banana
I'm glad Christian is on SmackDown now, I watch SmackDown a hell of a lot more than I watch Raw...
I'm the opposite. I rarely ever watch SD! If anything, I'll get the spoilers to know whats what.
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Old 07-01-2005, 10:14 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlyheaven
I'm interested to here The Prodigy's picks for whom he think should be future main eventers.
I'll speak on behalf of Prodigy

Hardcore Holly
Mark Jindrak
Chris Masters
The Hurricane
Rosey
Heidenreich
Steven Richards
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Old 07-01-2005, 11:09 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
What exactly don't you like about him that you like about others on the roster? Actually, who is your favorite wrestlers on the roster?
For some reason I've just never liked Christian. Never. He's just always seemed dull to me even more-so than Edge. I absolutely hated their tag team. To me the whole gimmicked just completely sucked. I did, however, like The Brood but that's mostly because of David Heath (Gangrel). But Christian has never been interesting to me whatsoever. Although I'll give him credit on one thing, I thought he worked the love triangle with Jericho and Trish pretty good. Even though I knew before their match at Wrestlemania 20 that Trish was going to turn heel I still liked how the angle was played out. But then Tomko came and Christian said "problem solver" atleast 100 times in every promo he done around that time and once again he was dull. I can't explain why I don't like the guy, I just don't like him and it's not because of his gimmick or the fact that he's a heel. I dislike him because I just think he's a shitty performer and until he proves me otherwise I will stongly believe that. Period.

As far as who my favorite wrestlers on the current roster are, well, to be honest I don't have any favorites. I just don't see anybody that stands out or anybody that could be the next Austin, Rock, Flair, etc. There's some good wrestlers on the roster, don't get me wrong, but nobody really all that special. There's some guys with good in-ring skills, there's guy with good mic skills, and there's guys with good ring psychology but in my opinion nobody currently on WWE's roster has enough of all three of those qualities. To me, a truly great wrestler must excel in all three qualities.
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Old 07-01-2005, 11:12 PM   #47
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not even Angle?

Ok, well who's your favorite in any fed out there?
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Old 07-01-2005, 11:17 PM   #48
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At least you know your shit and you're not being an asshole mark. You're just not a fan of him, that's understandable I guess. It is your perspective. I personally am very impressed with the Christian character the past couple of years. I think it's really evolved into something we all can enjoy. It's good to me because nobody expected that he would grow on the fans and actually be worthy of the main event (which obviously some still don't think he is worty) and now he's proving alot of people wrong. Xtian is gold IMO
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Old 07-01-2005, 11:29 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prodigy
Hopefully they'll keep him in Midcard Hell on Smackdown a few weeks feuding him with the likes of Hardcore Holly and Charlie Haas, then release him as part of the roster cuts. Ahh, it's so nice to dream.

(Waits to be neg repped and flamed by those who think Jason Reso is the "next big thing" and that he deserves to win the "big one")
ALEYLEEEEEEEEEEEEEY
LEAAAAAAAAALEEEEEEY
LEEEEEEEEEEEEAYAY
ALEH...



This reply has now been HASSAN-ED.
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Old 07-01-2005, 11:45 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
not even Angle?

Ok, well who's your favorite in any fed out there?
Well yeah Kurt Angle's got a pretty good combination of those things but his mic skills are pretty limited. Also, he hasn't really reinvented himself much over the past few years. Just as Sting said on "Sting: Unmasked" a truly great wrestler must find ways to reinvent himself after he's done the same thing for so long. Angle hasn't really changed much in the last few years. And yes he's a magnificent worker but he doesn't have good in-ring chemistry with everybody. Most big names he does but some guys I just don't think he works good matches with. But Angle is definitely one of the better workers in WWE. He works a good heel because he's the guy you love to hate and he doesn't make it too obvious that that is what his purpose is in the first place. He doesn't make it blatantly obvious that he is acting and getting his lines from a script. IMO Christian does make it obvious. For example, the promos I mentioned before where he would just say "problem solver" over and over. He made it way too obvious that they told him backstage to make it a point to emphasize Tomko's nickname. Just a bad actor in my view.


The only wrestler that really pops in my ahead as being TRUE greatness is Raven. Yeah some people say he's a little past his prime but that doesn't make a damn bit a difference, he's still better than anybody on Vince's roster with the exception of Flair who is really past his prime. I also think Chris Sabin has an extremely bright future but it's just going to take him a while to get there. Chris Daniels is also a great competitor. Love that BMS. I can't really comment much on TNA because it's been awhile since I've seen Impact and I don't get to watch ROH, OVW, or any of the other big indy feds. So I guess I would go with Raven as my favorite wrestler that's currently active. He's got all the major tools a truly great wrestler must possess.
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Old 07-01-2005, 11:54 PM   #51
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Kurt's mic skills are limited?? Are you joking?
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Old 07-02-2005, 12:02 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlyheaven
Kurt's mic skills are limited?? Are you joking?
Nope
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Old 07-02-2005, 12:06 AM   #53
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Well there is a reason Raven has never been a main guy in a major company before. He has a cult of fans, but the mass audience really doesn't care about him at all. He's never been a huge draw to a mass market and never will be.

Flair greater then everyone on the WWE roster, which I think you're saying also, is pretty funny.
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Old 07-02-2005, 12:06 AM   #54
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Did you hear all he big pops Raven got in the WWE? Neither did I.
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Old 07-02-2005, 12:18 AM   #55
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Raven wasn't over in WWE because he wasn't properly pushed.
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Old 07-02-2005, 12:22 AM   #56
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Raven wasn't over in the WWE because he didn't hold the interest of the casual wrestling fans.
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Old 07-02-2005, 12:29 AM   #57
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What about WCW? He had he fans of course, but never really amounted to anything past mid-status. He's had the same gimmick forever and that's all he can really do. I was a huge Raven fan too, but saying he's better then the entire WWE roster is crazy I think. The only thing we can base who's better then who is by drawing power, ticket/merchendise/video sales, main eventing matches consistently and crowd reactions. And Raven was never really at the top there in WWE or WCW, which are the only two companies really worth mentioning.
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Old 07-02-2005, 12:54 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
What about WCW? He had he fans of course, but never really amounted to anything past mid-status. He's had the same gimmick forever and that's all he can really do. I was a huge Raven fan too, but saying he's better then the entire WWE roster is crazy I think. The only thing we can base who's better then who is by drawing power, ticket/merchendise/video sales, main eventing matches consistently and crowd reactions. And Raven was never really at the top there in WWE or WCW, which are the only two companies really worth mentioning.
That was back then. Wrestling fans and their perspective on the sport has evolved over the years. Raven was really over in ECW in the mid-90s and then when he went to WCW, then later WWE, he wasn't over as much. But that was because a majority of wrestling fans (marks) didn't really understand him or his gimmick. Back in those days everybody wasn't a "smart mark" like today and so therefore most marks didn't really get the character of Raven. But these days so many wrestling fans are on the Internet and there all reading about things that go on backstage.

For instance, Matt Hardy wasn't hugely over the last few times we saw him on WWE TV but since they fired him and the whole story broke out about the love triangle between himself, Lita, and Edge he's all over the place. Now some are considering Hardy the current "hot commodity" in wrestling. Everywhere you look there's something about Matt Hardy. When his music played during Edge and Lita's "wedding ceremony" the crowd went absolutely nuts and he wasn't even there. The same concept would apply to Raven. He's been all over the Internet the past few years and if it was announced that he was signing with WWE Internet fans the world over would be shocked and many people who don't currently watch WWE programming would be tuning in. I guarantee if Raven was in WWE now and was booked right he would be insanely over.
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Old 07-02-2005, 01:03 AM   #59
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Trust me and CyNick says this all the time. About 5% of wrestling fans are Internet fans. That's who we refer to as the "smart marks" today. The thing on Raw when Edge plated Matt's music, that joke went over about 95% of the fans in the audience that night. Notice the reaction when he said "I'll explain later." It was like in the audience. The fans scream "we want Matt" because

1) they hear the "smart marks" doing it and it eventually catches on

2) they still see Matt as part of the storyline with Lita and Kane, so it's only natural they scream it. I bet half those fans don't even know Matt was fired.

You really obviously don't know the wrestling market. Read Melzer's Observer. He mentions the Internet fans and the Casual Fans all the time. And always mentions that Internet fans are such a small minority of the wrestling population, that Vince doesn't bother with what we think.

I bet anything most of the fans you see at Raw have no clue Raven is the World Champion in TNA. Even people on here didn't even know.
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Old 07-02-2005, 01:05 AM   #60
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And Raven gets flamed all the time on here, so even the Internet fans don't think he's anything special.
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Old 07-02-2005, 01:32 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
You really obviously don't know the wrestling market. Read Melzer's Observer. He mentions the Internet fans and the Casual Fans all the time. And always mentions that Internet fans are such a small minority of the wrestling population, that Vince doesn't bother with what we think.

I bet anything most of the fans you see at Raw have no clue Raven is the World Champion in TNA. Even people on here didn't even know.
I don't know the wrestling market? LOL. Saying that I don't know the wrestling market is like saying you don't know who Randy Orton is. I've studied the business as long as I've been able to walk. I was a "smart mark" back when there was no Internet and the only source for wrestling news was Pro Wrestling Illustrated magazine (as well as others). I'm not just an "Internet fan" who bitches about the things that we should be seeing on RAW and Smackdown. I'm more than just a fan as I've worked matches and booked shows. I eat, sleep, and breath professional wrestling because I have long term plans in the wrestling business. I'm not just some smartass wrestling fan that thinks they know what's best for the business.

I realize Vince doesn't care what the Internet fans want or even the casual fans for that matter. But the fact is today's casual wrestling fan would respond more to Raven than the casual fans of the last 90s-early 2000s. Whether or not the casual WWE fans are aware of Raven's recent NWA World title win is irrelevant. The fact is if he were in WWE today he would be more over than he was the last time he was in WWE and he would be more over than some of WWE's current workers. Today's wrestling fans, casual or Internet, would appreciate Raven alot more than they did 5 or 6 years ago.
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Old 07-02-2005, 02:07 AM   #62
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Raven would NOT get over. Why should he? Last time WWE Fans saw him he was that guy who was on Heat alot.

If he comes back, so what? Will they care?

Most of them will probably have forgotten him.

If they pushed him and gave him mic time, than yes, he could EVENTUALLY get over.

EDIT- One more thing.... Related to the actual topic of Christian on Smackdown and not this arguemen. I marked out when Michael Cole called UPN the United Peeps Network.
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Old 07-02-2005, 05:32 AM   #63
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I marked out when Michael Cole called UPN the United Peeps Network.
He did?!?

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Old 07-02-2005, 05:44 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prodigy
I don't know the wrestling market? LOL. Saying that I don't know the wrestling market is like saying you don't know who Randy Orton is. I've studied the business as long as I've been able to walk. I was a "smart mark" back when there was no Internet and the only source for wrestling news was Pro Wrestling Illustrated magazine (as well as others). I'm not just an "Internet fan" who bitches about the things that we should be seeing on RAW and Smackdown. I'm more than just a fan as I've worked matches and booked shows. I eat, sleep, and breath professional wrestling because I have long term plans in the wrestling business. I'm not just some smartass wrestling fan that thinks they know what's best for the business.

I realize Vince doesn't care what the Internet fans want or even the casual fans for that matter. But the fact is today's casual wrestling fan would respond more to Raven than the casual fans of the last 90s-early 2000s. Whether or not the casual WWE fans are aware of Raven's recent NWA World title win is irrelevant. The fact is if he were in WWE today he would be more over than he was the last time he was in WWE and he would be more over than some of WWE's current workers. Today's wrestling fans, casual or Internet, would appreciate Raven alot more than they did 5 or 6 years ago.
I wouldn't test LC's knowledge of marketting. I'm pretty sure the guy's studied it (legitamately).

Anyway, when you get to the WWE (and I hope you do, because I wish you the best), it will be ironic if you're out there busting your ass day in and day out only to find some people on the internet talking about how you're "only average".

Watch any of the high profile matches Christian has been in and tell me he isn't making it an entertaining match. Watch the TLC 1, TLC 2, TLC 3, TLC 4, his Ladder Match with Rob Van Dam, his Ladder Match with Chris Jericho or his Triple Threat at Vengeance, and tell me that guy doesn't go above and beyond for us.

You mentioned Raven was never over in the WWE because he wasn't push right? Christian has never been pushed right and he is MASSIVELY over. The guy was more over than The Undertaker, Booker T or Chris Benoit on SmackDown! (I wish they didn't edit SmackDown!'s crowd reactions), and that is saying something.

I don't think the guy should be World Champion immediately, but by the end of the year, sure. He's got perfect mic skills (that's not an exaggeration). Everything he says comes out sounding perfectly, and his promo a few weeks ago with Jericho was top stuff. The only reason he would have been saying "Problem Solver" a lot (which I don't remembr happening) is probably because he was trying to help Tomko get over, which is something that probably sounds strange since we don't usually hear Triple H spout off names.

Christian's ring skills may no be perfect, but he's one of eht more solid performers on either brand, and he knows how to string together a match. I'm looking forward to him beating Booker T at The Great American Bash, and eventually moving on to Dave Batista.
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Old 07-02-2005, 09:07 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prodigy
I don't know the wrestling market? LOL. Saying that I don't know the wrestling market is like saying you don't know who Randy Orton is. I've studied the business as long as I've been able to walk. I was a "smart mark" back when there was no Internet and the only source for wrestling news was Pro Wrestling Illustrated magazine (as well as others). I'm not just an "Internet fan" who bitches about the things that we should be seeing on RAW and Smackdown. I'm more than just a fan as I've worked matches and booked shows. I eat, sleep, and breath professional wrestling because I have long term plans in the wrestling business. I'm not just some smartass wrestling fan that thinks they know what's best for the business.

I realize Vince doesn't care what the Internet fans want or even the casual fans for that matter. But the fact is today's casual wrestling fan would respond more to Raven than the casual fans of the last 90s-early 2000s. Whether or not the casual WWE fans are aware of Raven's recent NWA World title win is irrelevant. The fact is if he were in WWE today he would be more over than he was the last time he was in WWE and he would be more over than some of WWE's current workers. Today's wrestling fans, casual or Internet, would appreciate Raven alot more than they did 5 or 6 years ago.

I know your not a smart ass fan who bitches. I've seen you post. But if you've studies wrestling, you would know that the Internet fans are just a little piece of the pie of wrestling fans. A real little piece. That's why all those ridiculous shoots WCW tried to pull never worked. Because 95% of those fans didn't have a clue what was going on.

Alienoid said it perfectly. Why would anyone care about Raven when all he did was job and appear on Heat in the WWE? Even in TNA, they didn't have enough faith in Raven to make him a long-term champ right when he came in. Now they give him the belt when they aren't even on TV anymore.

Like I said, I like Raven. I loved him in WCW. He has a unique character and solid mic skills. But the character can only be taken so far in big companies like WCW and WWE.
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Old 07-02-2005, 09:12 AM   #66
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By the way, this is a real good discussion.
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Old 07-02-2005, 10:31 AM   #67
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Hard to take someone serious when they say Angle has limited mic skills.

That's all I'm saying.
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Old 07-02-2005, 12:08 PM   #68
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Meh, his opinion.

I always thought Bret Hart had limited mic skills. My opinion.
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Old 07-02-2005, 12:19 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
I know your not a smart ass fan who bitches. I've seen you post. But if you've studies wrestling, you would know that the Internet fans are just a little piece of the pie of wrestling fans. A real little piece. That's why all those ridiculous shoots WCW tried to pull never worked. Because 95% of those fans didn't have a clue what was going on.
And, of course, the net fanbase is the same now as it was during the WCW days.

It's not as though the internet is more prevalent, access is easier, more affordable, and possible in multiple locations.

It's not as though the numbers have changed for viewership either. As those are fixed, the percentage who are net fans is also fixed.

It's not as though most of the people who make this argument are using outdated " proof" and "facts" that are 5+ years old and hold no relavence to the current state of the market...
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Old 07-02-2005, 12:19 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PureHatred
Hard to take someone serious when they say Angle has limited mic skills.

That's all I'm saying.
He does.

He's limited to PWN!
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Old 07-02-2005, 12:41 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
And, of course, the net fanbase is the same now as it was during the WCW days.

It's not as though the internet is more prevalent, access is easier, more affordable, and possible in multiple locations.

It's not as though the numbers have changed for viewership either. As those are fixed, the percentage who are net fans is also fixed.

It's not as though most of the people who make this argument are using outdated " proof" and "facts" that are 5+ years old and hold no relavence to the current state of the market...
so do you agree with Prodigy that Raven will be mega-over in the WWE today because most fans are Internet fans?

I brought up the Matt Hardy/Edge/Lita storyline to make it "current" More then half of WWE's fanbase don't have a clue Edge cheated with Lita.

And yea more people use the Internet now, but that doesn't make them smart-makrs. Proof is right on this site in that thread linking to another site with a bunch of marks. Just read thier comments. Sure, they might read WWE.com all the time, but WWE.com is not a smark site.

yea, the net fanbase is bigger then 4 years ago, maybe, but it's still a small portion.
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Old 07-02-2005, 12:47 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loose Cannon
so do you agree with Prodigy that Raven will be mega-over in the WWE today because most fans are Internet fans?
Nope.

I disagree with the use of SIGNIFICANTLY out-of-date facts which have not been updated or researched in a time period where internet access has gone way up and wrestling viewing has gone down.

I think Raven gets Hogan/Taker pops. I think that while those people are still synonymous with wrestling to the core fanbase, Raven is not.

I also think you are wrong to make dated statements in an attempt to prove him wrong.

I think a lot of things. One of which is that Raven has about as much business being in the ring right now as Hogan/Nash, and is only accepted by people ' round here because they're Raven fanboys, so it's okay for THIS has-been to dominate, and SURELY he would have the same name recognition.
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Old 07-02-2005, 01:11 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlyheaven
Meh, his opinion.

I always thought Bret Hart had limited mic skills. My opinion.
He sucks all around though

***HEEL HEAT***

Oh and its like 30% internet fans 70% casual posters
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Old 07-02-2005, 01:19 PM   #74
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Trade Show for Christian

they spent SO MUCH time building a christian vs cena feud with all of his fucking promos for 4 months, and the royal rumble, just for a friggin match at a small payperview... and it wasn't even 1 on 1.

thought they were finally doing something right, Christian vs Cena, longterm feud would have been gold, they could have ended it at summerslam. But no, let me guess, Triple H got bored of the world title and now wants the WWE title?
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Old 07-02-2005, 01:20 PM   #75
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He sucks all around though

***HEEL HEAT***

Oh and its like 30% internet fans 70%
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Old 07-02-2005, 01:22 PM   #76
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forget it...
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Old 07-02-2005, 01:26 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prodigy
I don't know the wrestling market? LOL. Saying that I don't know the wrestling market is like saying you don't know who Randy Orton is. I've studied the business as long as I've been able to walk. I was a "smart mark" back when there was no Internet and the only source for wrestling news was Pro Wrestling Illustrated magazine (as well as others). I'm not just an "Internet fan" who bitches about the things that we should be seeing on RAW and Smackdown. I'm more than just a fan as I've worked matches and booked shows. I eat, sleep, and breath professional wrestling because I have long term plans in the wrestling business. I'm not just some smartass wrestling fan that thinks they know what's best for the business.

I realize Vince doesn't care what the Internet fans want or even the casual fans for that matter. But the fact is today's casual wrestling fan would respond more to Raven than the casual fans of the last 90s-early 2000s. Whether or not the casual WWE fans are aware of Raven's recent NWA World title win is irrelevant. The fact is if he were in WWE today he would be more over than he was the last time he was in WWE and he would be more over than some of WWE's current workers. Today's wrestling fans, casual or Internet, would appreciate Raven alot more than they did 5 or 6 years ago.
No need to cut a promo, kid. You're not going to change anyones mind. You get an A for effort though.

If you are, in fact, a promoter, and have worked shows, I have questions. "Who trained you? Where do you Promote? And how does a steady diet of pro wrestling treat your intestines? WHERES THE FIBER MAN!!??"
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Old 07-02-2005, 01:27 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohan3k
thought they were finally doing something right, Christian vs Cena, longterm feud would have been gold, they could have ended it at summerslam. But no, let me guess, Triple H got bored of the world title and now wants the WWE title?
Triple H didn't want Christian on RAW because he was more deserving of the title than Triple H.
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Old 07-02-2005, 02:26 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by just john
forget it...
No its Casual posters
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Old 07-02-2005, 02:44 PM   #80
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lol sorry I can't do the strikeout font thing...how do you do it??
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