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Old 09-29-2005, 12:02 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hulkamania320
Xero, the list of wrestlers that don't need to go over that keep going over has a whole lot more names on it than just Hulk Hogan. And if Randy Ortons character could take losing to the Undertaker at Wrestlemania, he could take losing to Hogan. Not that he SHOULD lose. I just suggested that it would be a good match to see, NO MATTER WHO WON OR LOSE. It is bullshit to say that it isn't a good match if Hullk Hogan wins, or if Randy Orton wins. Damn.
You're right about a lot of the names going over who shouldn't. Undertaker, Triple H, Flair, even Michaels to an extent (although he jobs more than he wins it seems)... I don't think anyone is going to argue with you. And that's ANOTHER point, NONE of these wrestlers should be winning matchs just because it would 'hurt their legacy' if they job once in a while in a big match.

Orton should have NEVER lost to The Undertaker, and that's coming from an Undertaker mark. It was stupid and pointless, even if Orton was going to be out for a few months. They could have had him win and the Undertaker could have destroyed him and put him on the shelf storyline-wise. It hurt Orton a lot more than it helped him.

You're right, it doesn't matter who wins or loses a match. It depends on if the match is GOOD and/or watchable. Hogan's matches do not fall into either of those categories. For example, I don't care if Shawn Michaels OR Kurt Angle wins at Homecoming, the fact is that it's going to be a GREAT match.

And just for the record, Ric Flair has no business holding any title at this stage in his career.
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Old 09-29-2005, 12:07 PM   #42
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I don't even know what is being argued any more. Other Hulkadouche trying to convince everyone he isn't a Hogan mark by being a mark.
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Old 09-29-2005, 02:05 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesSteele
Also, Hulk Hogan would have been NOTHING without Roddy Piper.
Steve Austin would have been nothing without McMahon, Rock/HHH would have been nothing without each other, Raven would be nothing without Dreamer, etc, etc. Everyone had a foil that they needed to get over. The only wrestler that I can think of that didn't need an opponet to get over and draw would be Andre the Giant.


I understand why Hogan shouldn't win and should job to Orton in the aforementioned hypothetical match, but to say that Hogan was worthless or could be replaced by anyone is absurd. In fact, Vince tried that once with a guy called.....The Ultimate Warrior!! NOBODY could have replaced Hogan at that time, NOBODY. Hogan got over for his prescence and charisma, not for his wrestling ability. Flair didn't outdraw him, Piper didn't, Hart didn't, Michaels didn't. Nobody did. Who would you have put to replace Hogan?? Piper? No. Flair? Maybe, if you could lure him away from the NWA. Randy Savage? Never reached Hogan's height.

The way I see it, we should be glad Hogan did what he did for pro-wrestling. He brought consistent mainstream crossover appeal to WWE(F) and professional wrestling as a whole. Sure people wanted to see Piper get his ass kicked, but they wanted Hogan to kick it. Mania would not have been as big a success w/o Hulk Hogan. Hogan drew people in. And once people were drawn in, they were introduced to guys like Bret Hart, Jake Roberts, Shawn Michaels, Randy Savage, etc. Without Hogan this business would not be where it is today.

Also, I want to say that I am not a Hogan mark. If you want to call me a mark for a wrestler then call me a Bret Hart mark. But as great as Hart was, he didn't draw as much money or interest in the business as Hogan. I am simply recognizing he contribution to pro-wrestling as a whole. Its simple, Destor, people didnt want to see wrestling, they wanted sports-entertainment. That's promotions like RoH wont ever get mainstream appeal. People know its not a real sport, and want it to be treated accordingly. If you payed attention to any of my previous posts on TPWW, then you know I prefer RoH style pure wrestling, but its the simple truth.
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Old 09-29-2005, 02:52 PM   #44
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Warrior COULD'VE been bigger than Hogan. He was just a lunatic.
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Old 09-29-2005, 02:56 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hulkamania320
I said that it doesn't make it a bad match if Hogan doesn't lose.

But the problem is... it does. It hold's down the talent. If Hogan loses, then it puts over some lucky guy. If Hogan win's, it basically does nothing for no one. He shows up every few months, wins all his matches, leaves, comes back for "one more match", wins 5 more... it's crap. When Hogan wins, we all lose.
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Old 09-29-2005, 03:01 PM   #46
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Give it a few years and let Orton get to be big. I bet he'll be the next big politicker.
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Old 09-29-2005, 03:16 PM   #47
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Yeah, Orton should win the match. It would help his gimmick out a lot. But its not do or die for him, no matter how you try to put it.
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Old 09-29-2005, 04:36 PM   #48
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Hogan winning serves NO purpose. He's already over, and he won't stick around. If Orton wins, it's a big elevation. What sounds better " I beat Hogan." Or " I almost beat Hogan." Which is going to be taken more seriously? Also, It's not exactly believable that Hogan wins anymore.
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Old 09-29-2005, 05:25 PM   #49
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Actually if you look at the last couple times Hogan has jobbed, nothing much has come out or it.

When The Rock beat him at WM18, Hogan ended up getting the title shot at the next PPV. Both Hogan and Rock were put over through this match. He then won the match and jobbed at Judgement Day to the Undertaker...but McMahon interfered so we wont count that one.

When Hogan jobbed to Kurt Angle at King of the Ring 2002.....wait Hogan jobbed to Angle at KotR?? Yeah he did, too bad its never mentioned.

Hogan then jobbed to Lesnar on Smackdown in August 2003. This was a pointless job IMO. Lesnar was already the number one contender, and he was pretty much guaranteed to win at Summerslam 02 vs The Rock. Sure, Lesnar went over but Hogan returned in the spring and they never mentioned it again. Pointless.

He then lost The Rock again....big whoop he got "screwed" by Vinnie Mac, so it wasnt really a clean job.

Every time Hogan jobs, it isn't talked about much longer than 3 weeks. They need to push the fact that Angle made Hogan TAP OUT a couple years ago!!! If this match goes forward, Hogan SHOULD job CLEANLY, but it wont do Orton any good unless they keep acknowledging he won.
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Old 09-29-2005, 08:36 PM   #50
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whithout HOGAN there would be no TPWW.NET
Vince makes soooooooooooo much money off Hulk still to this day. hes got to be doing something right. Other then Flair nobody else is even close. People hate on Hulk because they think its cool. Everybody on this board would flip out if they got a chance to meet him. Face it, Hogan still rules!
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Old 09-29-2005, 08:39 PM   #51
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rawr
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Old 09-29-2005, 08:47 PM   #52
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I'm awating LC's reply.
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Old 09-29-2005, 09:03 PM   #53
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Me too...where is Loosey?
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Old 09-29-2005, 09:25 PM   #54
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Me too...where is Loosey?

Im getting worried guys.
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Old 09-29-2005, 09:41 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redoneja
Steve Austin would have been nothing without McMahon, Rock/HHH would have been nothing without each other, Raven would be nothing without Dreamer, etc, etc. Everyone had a foil that they needed to get over. The only wrestler that I can think of that didn't need an opponet to get over and draw would be Andre the Giant.
There is a lot of truth there, any face is only as good as his opponent.

Quote:
I understand why Hogan shouldn't win and should job to Orton in the aforementioned hypothetical match, but to say that Hogan was worthless or could be replaced by anyone is absurd. In fact, Vince tried that once with a guy called.....The Ultimate Warrior!! NOBODY could have replaced Hogan at that time, NOBODY. Hogan got over for his presence and charisma, not for his wrestling ability. Flair didn't outdraw him, Piper didn't, Hart didn't, Michaels didn't. Nobody did. Who would you have put to replace Hogan?? Piper? No. Flair? Maybe, if you could lure him away from the NWA. Randy Savage? Never reached Hogan's height.
As far as the Warrior bit goes the goofy mother fucker would have been bigger if he wasn't such a nut.

Quote:
The way I see it, we should be glad Hogan did what he did for pro-wrestling. He brought consistent mainstream crossover appeal to WWE(F) and professional wrestling as a whole. Sure people wanted to see Piper get his ass kicked, but they wanted Hogan to kick it. Mania would not have been as big a success w/o Hulk Hogan. Hogan drew people in. And once people were drawn in, they were introduced to guys like Bret Hart, Jake Roberts, Shawn Michaels, Randy Savage, etc. Without Hogan this business would not be where it is today.
Again your right. Provided Vince didn't get another wrestler to star in an A list movie and then push him to the moon no one could have took wrestling to where he did. The problem is that this thread isn't about his contributions to the business, there are many. Its why wouldn't he have to job to younger talent (in this case Orton.) But I could give a rats ass about the mainstream audience. That audience wants crap, I want a 4* wrestling match. I blame Hogan for not having that twice a month.

Quote:
Also, I want to say that I am not a Hogan mark. If you want to call me a mark for a wrestler then call me a Bret Hart mark. But as great as Hart was, he didn't draw as much money or interest in the business as Hogan. I am simply recognizing he contribution to pro-wrestling as a whole. Its simple, Destor, people didn't want to see wrestling, they wanted sports-entertainment. That's promotions like RoH wont ever get mainstream appeal. People know its not a real sport, and want it to be treated accordingly. If you payed attention to any of my previous posts on TPWW, then you know I prefer RoH style pure wrestling, but its the simple truth.
If Hogan and/or Vince had cared about wrestling the could of still put on 4*-5* matches in between all there bs Entertainment and salvaged the sport of it. Its not about knowing its fake, its about appreciating the phicology and athleticism of it. Instead of making every single wrestling fan look like a moron.
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Old 09-29-2005, 09:58 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor
Again your right. Provided Vince didn't get another wrestler to star in an A list movie and then push him to the moon no one could have took wrestling to where he did. The problem is that this thread isn't about his contributions to the business, there are many. Its why wouldn't he have to job to younger talent (in this case Orton.) But I could give a rats ass about the mainstream audience. That audience wants crap, I want a 4* wrestling match. I blame Hogan for not having that twice a month.


If Hogan and/or Vince had cared about wrestling the could of still put on 4*-5* matches in between all there bs Entertainment and salvaged the sport of it. Its not about knowing its fake, its about appreciating the phicology and athleticism of it. Instead of making every single wrestling fan look like a moron.

I knew what thread was about, I got a little off topic to address Mr Steele. It just seemed that he doesn't recognize any of Hogan's contributions.


I somewhat agree with your assesment that Hogan and/or Vince could have put 4-5 * matches in there. The only problem I see, is that it was tried. Just look WWE prior to Hulkamania, or even WWE matched up through about 1988. Up until this time, alot of matches were still more wrestling based than entertainment based. The problem is that the actual wrestling couldn't keep the casual fans satisifed. And casuals are where Vince makes the big bucks. There has always been a core audience of fans like us that appreciate the actual wrestling. Unfortunately, the casual fans do not. If you look at any of the boom periods in wrestling, all the way from Gorgeous George's boom thru the Attitude Era, they were boom periods b/c a number of casuals were drawn in by the entertainment value, not the wrestling.

I know this sucks, because I love the drama of the sport not the entertainment. But Vince realized he can make more money by appealing to the casuals instead of just the core auidence of wrestling fanatics. It was a smart business decision, no matter how much I disagree with it.
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Old 09-29-2005, 10:07 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redoneja
I knew what thread was about, I got a little off topic to address Mr Steele. It just seemed that he doesn't recognize any of Hogan's contributions.


I somewhat agree with your assesment that Hogan and/or Vince could have put 4-5 * matches in there. The only problem I see, is that it was tried. Just look WWE prior to Hulkamania, or even WWE matched up through about 1988. Up until this time, alot of matches were still more wrestling based than entertainment based. The problem is that the actual wrestling couldn't keep the casual fans satisifed. And casuals are where Vince makes the big bucks. There has always been a core audience of fans like us that appreciate the actual wrestling. Unfortunately, the casual fans do not. If you look at any of the boom periods in wrestling, all the way from Gorgeous George's boom thru the Attitude Era, they were boom periods b/c a number of casuals were drawn in by the entertainment value, not the wrestling.

I know this sucks, because I love the drama of the sport not the entertainment. But Vince realized he can make more money by appealing to the casuals instead of just the core auidence of wrestling fanatics. It was a smart business decision, no matter how much I disagree with it.
We are in complete agreement. And it saddens me .
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Old 09-29-2005, 10:11 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor
We are in complete agreement. And it saddens me .




And for me, its a shame that Hogan is taking the brunt of the blame. I think Vince should shoulder more of the blame. Every wrestler didn't need a flashy gimmick, just a couple of the top draws.
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Old 10-01-2005, 05:43 PM   #59
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All the trash about hogan is stupid. All you people need to respect what hogan has done for the sport. He has brought it to the level that it is today and without him none you would even be watching wrestling. The man deserves your respect, he took wrestling from high school gyms to 20,000 seat arena's. I will agree with you that he doesnt have much wrestling ability, but there are about 3 wrestlers in the business right now that can actually "wrestle". So i really dont understand your point there.

As far as hogan never jobbing i dont understand that either. goldberg, kurt angle, undertaker, brock lesnar, and two of the biggest jobs in history, the rock and the ultimate warrior. Does any of this ring a bell? As far as him not jobbing nowadays, my question is why should he? Im not suggesting he win every match, but for goodness sake's he is HULK HOGAN, why should he job to orton. What has orton ever done and why does he deserve to beat the biggest name in the history of wrestling? I think hogan has jobbed in the past when he should have. He has jobbed to legends. Orton doesnt deserve a win at wrestlemania over hogan, but i would have no problem at all if he jobbed to a legend like steve austin.

So bash hogan and me if you want, call me a hogan mark or whatever, im just stating what i think is true and right. No one could have done with the business what hogan done with it. NOBODY! no one ever again will have the popularity longevity of hulk hogan. And as it has been proved over and over again there will simply never ever be another Michael Jordan, another Jerry Rice, another Babe Ruth, and by hell there will never be another HULK FREAKING HOGAN!
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Old 10-01-2005, 05:50 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THENATUREBOY
All the trash about hogan is stupid. All you people need to respect what hogan has done for the sport. He has brought it to the level that it is today and without him none you would even be watching wrestling. The man deserves your respect, he took wrestling from high school gyms to 20,000 seat arena's. I will agree with you that he doesnt have much wrestling ability, but there are about 3 wrestlers in the business right now that can actually "wrestle". So i really dont understand your point there.

As far as hogan never jobbing i dont understand that either. goldberg, kurt angle, undertaker, brock lesnar, and two of the biggest jobs in history, the rock and the ultimate warrior. Does any of this ring a bell? As far as him not jobbing nowadays, my question is why should he? Im not suggesting he win every match, but for goodness sake's he is HULK HOGAN, why should he job to orton. What has orton ever done and why does he deserve to beat the biggest name in the history of wrestling? I think hogan has jobbed in the past when he should have. He has jobbed to legends. Orton doesnt deserve a win at wrestlemania over hogan, but i would have no problem at all if he jobbed to a legend like steve austin.

So bash hogan and me if you want, call me a hogan mark or whatever, im just stating what i think is true and right. No one could have done with the business what hogan done with it. NOBODY! no one ever again will have the popularity longevity of hulk hogan. And as it has been proved over and over again there will simply never ever be another Michael Jordan, another Jerry Rice, another Babe Ruth, and by hell there will never be another HULK FREAKING HOGAN!
Thats not being a mark you know what you are talkning about. But you are wrong on one major point. I was watching wrestling before Hogan, with out him, I still would be.
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Old 10-02-2005, 12:48 PM   #61
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Why would you ever think Hogan shouldn't job to orton?
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