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Old 02-03-2007, 06:28 PM   #41
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Old 02-03-2007, 06:45 PM   #42
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Sean O'Hare

What happen to him anyway?
He got fat and now is a mediocre MMA fighter....

I liked him too though, thought he had some potential...
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Old 02-03-2007, 09:47 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeritron5000
The IC division in the attitude era
The IC division from Randy Savage (1986) - Ken Shamrock (1998). They tarnished that belt alarmingly quickly beyond Shamrock, not through the calibre of champions, which was rather high, but rather the presentation and prestige of the title, and the frequency of title changes.

Even great wrestlers like Benoit, Jericho and Angle couldn't do much with the belt when they only had it for a week or two.

Prior to that, the Intercontinental title was always the "Wrestler's Belt". While Hogan, Warrior, Slaughter and co were headlining with the WWE Heavyweight championship, the best action was to be found with Hennig, Rude, Von Erich, Hart etc in the I-C division.
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Old 02-03-2007, 10:14 PM   #44
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Old 02-03-2007, 10:24 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeanderCarl
The IC division from Randy Savage (1986) - Ken Shamrock (1998). They tarnished that belt alarmingly quickly beyond Shamrock, not through the calibre of champions, which was rather high, but rather the presentation and prestige of the title, and the frequency of title changes.

Even great wrestlers like Benoit, Jericho and Angle couldn't do much with the belt when they only had it for a week or two.

Prior to that, the Intercontinental title was always the "Wrestler's Belt". While Hogan, Warrior, Slaughter and co were headlining with the WWE Heavyweight championship, the best action was to be found with Hennig, Rude, Von Erich, Hart etc in the I-C division.

I'm going to have to disagree, its just reflective of the pace of the business changing. It can be seen with the World Title too over those years.

Benoit and Jericho were phenomenal, and lent a lot of credibility to the belt. William Regal and RVD followed, even reigns by Kane. Randy Ortons IC title reign was great, Christian and Edge were.

The IC title picture has always fluctuated, but you can't say it dropped off quickly just because the belt changed hands more often. Look at the IC division in say, 96. It has been way more credible in times since then.

I personally am liking Jeff Hardy as IC champion right now.
Last edited by Jeritron; 02-03-2007 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 02-04-2007, 01:05 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeritron5000
I'm going to have to disagree, its just reflective of the pace of the business changing. It can be seen with the World Title too over those years.

Benoit and Jericho were phenomenal, and lent a lot of credibility to the belt. William Regal and RVD followed, even reigns by Kane. Randy Ortons IC title reign was great, Christian and Edge were.

The IC title picture has always fluctuated, but you can't say it dropped off quickly just because the belt changed hands more often. Look at the IC division in say, 96. It has been way more credible in times since then.

I personally am liking Jeff Hardy as IC champion right now.
I agree that Randy Orton had a good run, as did Shelton Benjamin. But there's no way you can consider that belt as prestigious as it once was, even during the 1996 talent drought. I'm not knocking the class of the wrestlers who have held the title since. But there was a time when the Intercontinental title was the main event at house shows around the globe, during the days of Honky Tonk Man and Ultimate Warrior.

Do you think fans would be satisfied with a Jeff Hardy vs Johnny Nitro main event at a house show, or even on Raw, if none of the "big stars" appeared before them? I think not.
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Old 02-04-2007, 01:09 AM   #47
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Old 02-04-2007, 01:14 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeanderCarl
I agree that Randy Orton had a good run, as did Shelton Benjamin. But there's no way you can consider that belt as prestigious as it once was, even during the 1996 talent drought. I'm not knocking the class of the wrestlers who have held the title since. But there was a time when the Intercontinental title was the main event at house shows around the globe, during the days of Honky Tonk Man and Ultimate Warrior.

Do you think fans would be satisfied with a Jeff Hardy vs Johnny Nitro main event at a house show, or even on Raw, if none of the "big stars" appeared before them? I think not.

I see the point, but I think thats more reflective of where the industry has gone, more than it is off the wrestlers, the company or the belt itself. I'm sure if I looked at the situation, I could think of plenty of examples where what you're saying actually has been the case.
Off the top of my head...in late 2003. Christian and RVD main evented Raw for the IC title in a ladder match. Brought down the house to end the show.
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Old 02-04-2007, 01:27 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeritron5000
I see the point, but I think thats more reflective of where the industry has gone, more than it is off the wrestlers, the company or the belt itself. I'm sure if I looked at the situation, I could think of plenty of examples where what you're saying actually has been the case.
Off the top of my head...in late 2003. Christian and RVD main evented Raw for the IC title in a ladder match. Brought down the house to end the show.
I cannot remember that show off the top of my head, but I'd be willing to bet (from that time period) that any combination of Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Goldberg, Vince McMahon, Chris Jericho, Big Show, Steve Austin, Kevin Nash and Ric Flair were featured at some point during that show in promos and/or matches. The fans had their fix of "major stars" and then enjoyed a well-worked main event (with a gimmick stipulation, I might add.)

Had none of the above, or any other main event names from that time I may have forgotten about, appeared on the show and the Christian/RVD match had not been a ladder match, I suspect the crowd would have been rather disappointed.

Whereas in the mid/late 80s, the usual undercard suspects would wrestle a show, followed by a heated I-C title main event, which would leave the crowds satisfied. The WWF Champion would go on tour with "crew A" and the I-C Champion would go on tour with "crew B" and both would sell-out arenas around the country. My point is that back then, the belt was a large part of the draw- it wasn't just the wrestler who was holding it. Honky for example was an opening match act until he shockingly took the I-C title, yet the fans came out in droves to see if/who would beat him on the road.

Short of putting the I-C title on an established main eventer, I don't see anybody on the "IC level" having that drawing ability today. That hurts the belt.

However, I will say that the current climate does play a role in that. Having two top champions negates the importance of the I-C title as a drawing card. However, this has only been relevant since 2002, some four years after the I-C title became a worthless prop rather than a star-maker.
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Old 02-04-2007, 01:42 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeanderCarl
I cannot remember that show off the top of my head, but I'd be willing to bet (from that time period) that any combination of Triple H, Shawn Michaels, Goldberg, Vince McMahon, Chris Jericho, Big Show, Steve Austin, Kevin Nash and Ric Flair were featured at some point during that show in promos and/or matches. The fans had their fix of "major stars" and then enjoyed a well-worked main event (with a gimmick stipulation, I might add.)

Had none of the above, or any other main event names from that time I may have forgotten about, appeared on the show and the Christian/RVD match had not been a ladder match, I suspect the crowd would have been rather disappointed.

Whereas in the mid/late 80s, the usual undercard suspects would wrestle a show, followed by a heated I-C title main event, which would leave the crowds satisfied. The WWF Champion would go on tour with "crew A" and the I-C Champion would go on tour with "crew B" and both would sell-out arenas around the country. My point is that back then, the belt was a large part of the draw- it wasn't just the wrestler who was holding it. Honky for example was an opening match act until he shockingly took the I-C title, yet the fans came out in droves to see if/who would beat him on the road.

Short of putting the I-C title on an established main eventer, I don't see anybody on the "IC level" having that drawing ability today. That hurts the belt.

However, I will say that the current climate does play a role in that. Having two top champions negates the importance of the I-C title as a drawing card. However, this has only been relevant since 2002, some four years after the I-C title became a worthless prop rather than a star-maker.

That doesn't hurt the belt. It's the secondary belt. It always has been. And the situation you're proposing is that of making it primary. That's not what it is. So that example doesn't count because the main eventers were on the card somewhere prior to that? That's absurd.
A worthless prop other than a star maker? Well whats the WWE title? Or any belt for that matter? It always has been a star maker. Ultimate Warrior, Macho Man, Bret and Shawn were all IC champs.
None of this is reflective of the belt or the division. The fact that the business is not moving at the pace it was, or the fans are more demanding of what a live event is, isn't a factor of the belts credibility as a "wrestlers" belt. Things are just different, just like they are with any belt.

Frankly, the IC and US champions right now (US plays the same role on Smackdown) are Jeff Hardy and Benoit respectively.
Conversely, John Cena, Bobby Lashley, and Batista are the World Champions.
So while we're getting them fueding with Umaga and Test...Jeff Hardy and Chris Benoit are facing off with Johnny Nitro, Chavo Guerrero and Finlay.

Sorry if the secondary belt can't main event shows without any of the World Champion stars on the card anymore, or that the belts don't have 365+ day reigns. Thats just not where the industry is at, and it hasn't been there for 10years now. Doesn't make the divisions or the champions any less credible.
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Old 02-04-2007, 01:51 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeritron5000
Sorry if the secondary belt can't main event shows without any of the World Champion stars on the card anymore.... Doesn't make the divisions or the champions any less credible.
You just admitted that it does. How can the I-C championship no longer be the main event of a show, yet remain as credible as when it DID main event house shows?

Hey, I don't think it needs to have the credibility that it once did. That's why you got the WWE title and the World title (I'm not going to bring ECW into the mix, either.) And match quality was not a gripe either, the I-C title division is still producing fine matches. But most of those matches could take place with or without the I-C title involved and nobody would even notice the difference. The belt used to mean so much more, and used to elevate to a much greater extent than it does now, and if you watched the WWF during the 80s and 90s, I don't know how you can really disagree with that.
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Old 02-04-2007, 02:01 AM   #52
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Also...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeritron5000
That doesn't hurt the belt. It's the secondary belt. It always has been. And the situation you're proposing is that of making it primary. That's not what it is. So that example doesn't count because the main eventers were on the card somewhere prior to that? That's absurd.
Yes it has always been secondary to the WWE title. But is was important enough to be a headline attraction in it's own right, which is no longer the case without a stacked card preceeding it.

Quote:
A worthless prop other than a star maker? Well whats the WWE title? Or any belt for that matter? It always has been a star maker. Ultimate Warrior, Macho Man, Bret and Shawn were all IC champs.
Yes and the belt helped elevate them to superstar status and eventually the WWE title. Okay, not all I-C champions had that success. But winning the I-C belt put those wrestlers up in the fans estimations because the title meant something, it was a huge achievement to have won that gold. In the case of all four men that you mention, winning the I-C championship played a huge role in their getting over to the extent that they would be considered for the WWF title. I don't see many people clamouring for a Jeff Hardy WWE title run.

Any belt is a prop for all intents and purposes, but that doesn't mean it has to be worthless.

Quote:
None of this is reflective of the belt or the division. The fact that the business is not moving at the pace it was, or the fans are more demanding of what a live event is, isn't a factor of the belts credibility as a "wrestlers" belt. Things are just different, just like they are with any belt.
Main difference is the "wrestler's belt" tag stopped applying when the WWE finally found themselves with main eventers who could actually work a good match (Austin, Rock, Foley, HHH)


Quote:
Frankly, the IC and US champions right now (US plays the same role on Smackdown) are Jeff Hardy and Benoit respectively.
Conversely, John Cena, Bobby Lashley, and Batista are the World Champions.
So while we're getting them fueding with Umaga and Test...Jeff Hardy and Chris Benoit are facing off with Johnny Nitro, Chavo Guerrero and Finlay.
Show me a card that sold out on the promise of a Jeff Hardy vs Johnny Nitro or a Chris Benoit vs Chavo Guerrero main event. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of good wrestling, and a lot of hardcore fans salivate at the thought of Benoit and Finlay getting it on. But it won't sell big tickets. Conversely, if Finlay somehow became World champion, THEN a match against Benoit would mean something because the World title still matters, it's still a draw in its own right. My whole point is, the I-C title once had the same effect but poor booking, title change overkill and general positioning of the belt and it's importance has damaged what they once had.
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Old 02-04-2007, 02:05 AM   #53
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I certainly see what you're saying. I do remember the great IC champions. I love the Intercontinental Championship so much. I always have almost cared more about it than the WWE championship. But I still think the belt is just as credible as the secondary championship. Yes it changes hands more frequently, which doesn't allow for the traditional dominant runs, But you can say that about World and Tag Titles too. And it can no longer main event shows. So yes, I suppose you're right about that "credibility" being lost in that department. But thats a difficult situation to compare to today, fans and house shows were much different then.
I think thats only reflective of the way things are. Aside from adaptation to modern settings and pace of the industry, the belt remains the same thing. The uppermidcard, secondary championship that elevates stars and is a "wrestler's belt"
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Old 02-04-2007, 02:09 AM   #54
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I agree with you that the business has changed and people have different expectations, but they are expectations that WWE themselves have moulded.

I also agree that for the most part it remains the "wrestler's belt" (watch Great Khali win it next week now...) and can elevate a star to a degree, but not to the heights of its prime.
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Old 02-04-2007, 02:16 AM   #55
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"Yes and the belt helped elevate them to superstar status and eventually the WWE title. Okay, not all I-C champions had that success. But winning the I-C belt put those wrestlers up in the fans estimations because the title meant something, it was a huge achievement to have won that gold. In the case of all four men that you mention, winning the I-C championship played a huge role in their getting over to the extent that they would be considered for the WWF title. I don't see many people clamouring for a Jeff Hardy WWE title run."

Oh but you say since 98. People HAVE clammored for Jericho, Benoit, Edge, Randy Orton, Christian, RVD, Booker T, Kurt Angle, Eddie Guerrero, Carlito.




"Main difference is the "wrestler's belt" tag stopped applying when the WWE finally found themselves with main eventers who could actually work a good match (Austin, Rock, Foley, HHH)"

It still needs new ones down the road, who come from the same place. Benoit Angle and Jericho were ready to go after their work with the IC belt in 2000. The failure to elevate them is reflective of other things and not what the IC belt was and is.




"Show me a card that sold out on the promise of a Jeff Hardy vs Johnny Nitro or a Chris Benoit vs Chavo Guerrero main event. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of good wrestling, and a lot of hardcore fans salivate at the thought of Benoit and Finlay getting it on. But it won't sell big tickets. Conversely, if Finlay somehow became World champion, THEN a match against Benoit would mean something because the World title still matters, it's still a draw in its own right. My whole point is, the I-C title once had the same effect but poor booking, title change overkill and general positioning of the belt and it's importance has damaged what they once had.[/QUOTE]

But you act like a house show in those days was the same ticket to sell. People were going just to see the WWF. They were easier to please. They didn't demand as much.
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Old 02-04-2007, 02:23 AM   #56
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I wouldn't say easier to please. Different expectations, but not easier to please. You're talking as though intelligence is a newfound concept in the last ten years.

As for those you mention since 1998 who have held the I-C title, the majority of them were already over before holding the belt or got themselves over without the dubious "assistance" of the tarnished title. In the case of Jericho, RVD and Benoit the belt has been more of a hindrance than a help. They've held the belt so many times they were being labelled as "IC guys" by both fans and the company. All three were lucky they were able to recover enough from that tag to eventually win the big belt.

One last thing, as entertaining as Kurt Angle was in 2000, fans didn't suddenly start clamouring for him to become WWE champion as soon as he won the I-C title. His WWE title win was a big upset and he had a short transitional reign that was more to build up his character than to carry the company. He was still in his rookie year and wasn't ready for the long haul at the top for at least another year (some would say two.)
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Old 02-04-2007, 02:27 AM   #57
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Don't get me wrong, there are holes in my argument too.

The I-C title didn't exactly make superstars of The Mountie, Davey Boy Smith, Marty Jannetty, Dean Douglas or several others. And there were some guys stuck in the "I-C guy" quagmire back then too (Razor Ramon, Jeff Jarrett).

But on the whole, I'd say it can't really be disputed that the Intercontinental title scene of 1986-1998 knocks bells out of the division 1999-2007 as far as prestige and fan perceived importance is concerned.
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Old 02-04-2007, 02:33 AM   #58
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Yea, well Jericho Benoit and RVD as IC champions was a great thing for them and the belt at first. It was a great move to have them start there. The problem is, they should have been moved up into the main event. In their case, they either weren't or were placed back into the IC division.
Yes, this sucks. But I think it's a case of misbooking them and their main event and not the IC title.

I think its more of the fact that WWE has been slow on the trigger with the great stars the modern IC division has bred, or not pulled the trigger at all. Or in the case of a Randy Orton, took him out of it too soon when he should have reigned as IC champion for a while longer.
One thing I've noticed is very rarely do you see a fued or a pair of wrestlers move on together.
If Jericho and Benoit were fueding for the WWF title in 2002/03 you would have said, those guys came up in the IC division and now look where they are. Like Triple H and The Rock, or Bret and Shawn.
But yea, now they fail to move the goods from one stage to the other, which I think creates the perception that the IC division isn't technically the same thing.

But I think the belt still is for all intents and purposes still what it always was. Granted it goes through stages. Like I was saying, it wasn't as meaningful in 96 as it was later in 97. Just as it could potentially mean more in 08 than it does in 07.

On an unrelated note, (just being an argumentive jackass haha) Kurt Angle first run was only semi-transitional, and certainly wasn't short. At least not for the times. He reigned from October to Febuary. For the attitude era, thats pretty good.
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Old 02-04-2007, 02:46 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeanderCarl
But on the whole, I'd say it can't really be disputed that the Intercontinental title scene of 1986-1998 knocks bells out of the division 1999-2007 as far as prestige and fan perceived importance is concerned.
Don't get me wrong either, that time was GREAT for the IC title. And yes, after Shamrock it took a little dip. I thought 2000 was a great time for the title tho, and basically I just see the belt and division as being the same thing for a different time. As far as prestige and fan importance is concerned. Sure, I agree after further review. But I still think its got its credibility. I also wouldn't say that the division is moot compared to those days.

And like you said, I know after all our blood sweat and tears over the IC division and what it means to us watch some oaf like Khali come and win and throw everything to the wind.
The more this discussion progressed, I realized I was defending the IC division for 2 reasons. First, because I still love it and still think it means a lot and serves similar purposes and importance. Secondly, because I love it so much because of the years you're talking about.
So in essence, everythign I'm saying is both a counter point and a support of everything you've said haha

p.s. I'm repping you just for providing me with some solid discussion for an hour.
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Old 02-04-2007, 09:27 AM   #60
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Oh, and the old design (worn by Hennig, Hart, Ramon etc.) is 10x better than the current design too!
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Old 02-04-2007, 09:51 AM   #61
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Far too lazy to read all of that but I think a few years ago the IC belt was a headlining belt.

In the era of Benoit, Eddie, RVD and Jericho fighting over the belt especialy around the time when Benoit took the belt to Smackdown it was a top level belt. I am pretty sure it mainevented the card often on Raw and really was a massively focal part of the show contested often more hotly than the world belt.

It was a main eventing, drawing belt, I cant have been the only one tuning in mostly too see who was going to take it out this week. It was fast paced, action packed and with guys who made me just go wow everythime they entered the ring.

Now you could argue that having ladder matches etc took away from it (there was a lot of IC title ladder matches in that era) but I dont think it did. While the moves were more stunning each and everyone of those guys made it all about the belt every single night.

I think its really a shining and underappreciated era of the belt right from the first win by RVD through until Kanes loss to HHH unifying it.
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Old 02-04-2007, 11:11 AM   #62
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Quote:
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Oh, and the old design (worn by Hennig, Hart, Ramon etc.) is 10x better than the current design too!
100% agreed...Ive been saying that since they introduced it...it just looks like a cheap belt...I cant stand it
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Old 02-04-2007, 02:31 PM   #63
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Quote:
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Now you could argue that having ladder matches etc took away from it (there was a lot of IC title ladder matches in that era) but I dont think it did. While the moves were more stunning each and everyone of those guys made it all about the belt every single night.

Ladder matches for the IC title:

1994-1998 (over 4 years):
HBK vs Razor Ramon I
HBK vs Razor Ramon II
Razor Ramon vs Jeff Jarret
HHH vs The Rock

1998-2007 (over 9 years):
Chris Jericho vs Chris Benoit
Edge vs Christian
RVD vs Eddie Guerrero
RVD vs Jeff Hardy (to Unify IC and European)
RVD vs Christian
Chris Jericho vs Christian
Jeff Hardy vs Johnny Nitro

There's certainly been more than I thought in the 2000s, but its about as often as it was then. Especially considering the fan expectations, the style of wrestling, the abilities of the wrestlers involved and the amount of PPVs and television programs.

I love that after Rock vs HHH, they didn't go to it until the Benoit vs Jericho fued. What then happened is in RVD's day and age, he was that "type" of wrestler. It wasn't overly used, but the ladder match was right up his alley and what the fans wanted to see him do, especially with compettitors like Jeff Hardy and Christian who have made a name for themselves in that match too.
Last edited by Jeritron; 02-04-2007 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 02-04-2007, 06:50 PM   #64
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i miss the F.B.I. as a stable
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Old 02-04-2007, 07:30 PM   #65
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Mid-carders I miss the most.

1. Scotty Riggs. Always thougt the guy had great potential next to Marcus Bagwell.

2. Dean Malenko. I honestly think he still got something left in the tank.

3. Perry Saturn. I know he played hero awhile back and still may be in rehab for it. But I sure do miss him.

4. Lismark Jr. One of WCW's many great luchadors.

That's all I can think of for now.
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Old 02-04-2007, 10:47 PM   #66
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I loved Crash Holly's run as Hardcore champ. He was one of the main reasons I enjoyed the King of the Ring 2000 show. Also, I have always been a huge fan of Kidman.
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Old 02-04-2007, 11:10 PM   #67
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I loved Crash Holly's run as Hardcore champ. He was one of the main reasons I enjoyed the King of the Ring 2000 show. Also, I have always been a huge fan of Kidman.
The 24/7 rule was comical and entertaining but Crash Holly's involvement in KOTR 2000? The fucking Gerry Brisco vs Pat Patterson Evening Gown Match? Maybe the worst match of all time.
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Old 02-04-2007, 11:39 PM   #68
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Quote:
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The 24/7 rule was comical and entertaining but Crash Holly's involvement in KOTR 2000? The fucking Gerry Brisco vs Pat Patterson Evening Gown Match? Maybe the worst match of all time.
I didn't mean that part. I think every wrestling fan tries to forget that. I meant him making it to the final four of the tournament, which no one expected at the start. It was nice to see for me, as a fan of him.
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Old 02-04-2007, 11:45 PM   #69
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I didn't mean that part. I think every wrestling fan tries to forget that. I meant him making it to the final four of the tournament, which no one expected at the start. It was nice to see for me, as a fan of him.
Maybe I'm thinking of 2001. Or maybe you are.
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Old 02-04-2007, 11:47 PM   #70
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Nope, both occurred at the KOTR 2000. My bad.
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Old 02-05-2007, 02:31 PM   #71
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Most guys from about 98-2001
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Old 02-05-2007, 05:01 PM   #72
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Come on....Curt 'Mr. Perfect' Henning. He was an upper mid-card guy.
Henning was upper mid card in WWE. In WCW he was just plain mid card. I stated the West Texas Rednecks as the rest of the guys in that stable were all lower card.
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Old 02-05-2007, 05:10 PM   #73
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I'm a firestarter! Twisted firestarter!



Yeah, anyway. I miss Billy Gunn (aside from the Billy/Chuck thing) and René dupree, even if he only went a few years back. Test too, if he counts. And Prince Albert (not A-Train)
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Old 02-05-2007, 08:28 PM   #74
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Uh... Rene Dupree and Test are both in ECW.
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Old 02-06-2007, 08:35 AM   #75
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This is what happens when you don't watch wrestling for a while. Ah well, they're probably being shat on anyway.
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