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Old 09-05-2007, 02:49 PM   #1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06
How many people in the WWE right now do you think have sore heads? It's a part of the business. I'm not saying it's right, but it's a business where you get banged up. Chris Benoit spent years in pain, which was what he expected, and in some ways wanted. It's what every wrestler is guilty of. If we're blaming people for the lead-in to these sorts of events, you might as well blame everyone wrestling right now.

I know concussions can do crazy things, but how do you feel knowing that I could come up, bonk you on the head with something, and then you'd go home and kill your family? You don't want to look at yourself that way. I really doubt Chris Benoit ever said "I should stop wrestling, I might go on a massacre soon." It really doesn't work like that. Every guy who steps out there takes the risk of a head injury, and they still do it. They should all be guilty of reckless endangerment then, not just Chris Benoit. I'm not smiling over this whole thing, but as I said, it's good that Chris Benoit didn't actively seek out to kill anyone, especially his wife and son.

As Rob said, the WWE should make brain scans compulsory, and they need to get on top of this thing and fix it. Why didn't they have brain scans before? Because, quite frankly, it was a risk that the industry did not see as relevant. Why should Chris Benoit if no one else does? As I said, there needs to be some responsibility for oneself, but no one really considered it a likelihood. How many discussions before Chris Benoit did anyone say "the WWE should have head scans so wrestlers don't hang themselves?" I can't recall one in my time as a fan.

I was not aware that there were reports of Chris Benoit acting unusual. When were these? I was only aware of the text messages sent on the weekend this all went down. But let's say people did know that Benoit was going insane...why are they not getting the blame? Isn't there some kind of responsibility Vince owes to his performers?
Why can't you accept that Benoit was a grown man making desisions to hurt his own head? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Chris start doing diving head butts way back in Japan? So, Benoit started wrestling what in 87? It is 2007 now, so for shits and giggles, he wrestled 20 years. Lets assume he wreslted 250 matches a year for the sake of arguement. Now I know some years he barely wrestled some years, and in his early years he probably worked 2 matches a day and more matches, but for the sake of argument, lets assume an average of 250 matches a year. And to my knowledge he did the diving head butt every match. For 250 matches (each with a diving head butt) for 20 years, that is 5000 diving head butts. That is 5000 more brain damaging head shots than your normal wrestler. And These are going to be far more taurmatic than other head shots as his head is dropping 11 feet to the canvis.

While hindsight is 20/20, if I was a wrestler, 1) I would never use a move where I drop myself on my head as a finisher, 2) if I did (hell even if I didn't) I would get a regular cat scan to make sure I'm not suffering to much brain damage. Because what is the point of making millions of dollars to retire to a nursing home.

So if you start looking at what Chris could have been doing for himself all along instead of just acting like this was an unforseeable tragidy, it starts to become pretty damning. It is Benoit's fault for dropping himself on his head. It is Benoit's fault for taking 'roids and pain killers. It is Benoit's fault for not trying to have a lighter schedule. And because he constantly choose to do nothing, it is all his fault his family is dead, and he hung himself.
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:58 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
Why can't you accept that Benoit was a grown man making desisions to hurt his own head? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Chris start doing diving head butts way back in Japan? So, Benoit started wrestling what in 87? It is 2007 now, so for shits and giggles, he wrestled 20 years. Lets assume he wreslted 250 matches a year for the sake of arguement. Now I know some years he barely wrestled some years, and in his early years he probably worked 2 matches a day and more matches, but for the sake of argument, lets assume an average of 250 matches a year. And to my knowledge he did the diving head butt every match. For 250 matches (each with a diving head butt) for 20 years, that is 5000 diving head butts. That is 5000 more brain damaging head shots than your normal wrestler. And These are going to be far more taurmatic than other head shots as his head is dropping 11 feet to the canvis.

While hindsight is 20/20, if I was a wrestler, 1) I would never use a move where I drop myself on my head as a finisher, 2) if I did (hell even if I didn't) I would get a regular cat scan to make sure I'm not suffering to much brain damage. Because what is the point of making millions of dollars to retire to a nursing home.

So if you start looking at what Chris could have been doing for himself all along instead of just acting like this was an unforseeable tragidy, it starts to become pretty damning. It is Benoit's fault for dropping himself on his head. It is Benoit's fault for taking 'roids and pain killers. It is Benoit's fault for not trying to have a lighter schedule. And because he constantly choose to do nothing, it is all his fault his family is dead, and he hung himself.
For it to be his fault, if this is true, it would have to be proven that he had reasonable knowledge that his job, his being dropped on his head, etc, could lead to the death of his family at his hands.

The same thing could happen to a boxer, or a football player, or a basketball player, etc.

Hell, if someone gets into a car accident and gets a concussion, can they be blamed for actions that happen later due to that concussion? Or since they now know what can happen when they drive, if they drive anyway and get into another accident, that causes another concussion, can they be blamed for their actions later caused by that concussion?
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Old 09-05-2007, 03:12 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do?
For it to be his fault, if this is true, it would have to be proven that he had reasonable knowledge that his job, his being dropped on his head, etc, could lead to the death of his family at his hands.

The same thing could happen to a boxer, or a football player, or a basketball player, etc.

Hell, if someone gets into a car accident and gets a concussion, can they be blamed for actions that happen later due to that concussion? Or since they now know what can happen when they drive, if they drive anyway and get into another accident, that causes another concussion, can they be blamed for their actions later caused by that concussion?
OMG, I'm not trying to prove that he knew he was going to kill his family. I am saying he willfully dropped himself on his head some 5000 more times than an average wrestler. And I'm willing to assume the average wrestler is going to take a lot more unprotected head shots than the average football player. And as such, Benoit should have known full well he was hurting his own brain and should have at least thought to keep track of that with cat scans. Who really gives a fuck if WWE wasn't making him keep track of that, he should have been doing it himself. If your job doesn't offer you health care wouldn't you go out and get it yourself?

Benoit was an adult capible of making adult desisions sometime before he killed everyone in a retarded rage or whatever it was. His lack of action before that lead to this tragedy. I am not saying he should have gotten a crystal ball to know he was going to do this. I'm saying that if he got a regular cat-scan, then all of this could have been prevented. But what do I know, I'm dumb. I give up. It is all Vince McMahon's fault for bashing Chris's brains in with steriods and tell chris to kill his family.

Dumb fucks.
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:11 PM   #4
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So now...just questioning based on that analogy, as I'm not even entirely sure how I feel about all this...are you saying that if a drunk driver kills someone, you blame the people that did not stop him from getting behind the wheel?
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:16 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepsi Man
So now...just questioning based on that analogy, as I'm not even entirely sure how I feel about all this...are you saying that if a drunk driver kills someone, you blame the people that did not stop him from getting behind the wheel?
Was that aimed at me or Noid? I am blaming the person that sat down behind the wheel. I question the people who didn't try and stop them, but still it is the person that was behind the wheel's fault.
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:19 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
Was that aimed at me or Noid? I am blaming the person that sat down behind the wheel. I question the people who didn't try and stop them, but still it is the person that was behind the wheel's fault.
That was blamed at 'noid, since he seems to be removing blame from Benoit and is using that "no one tried to stop him". No one tries to stop every drunk person that tries to get behind the wheel, either, and they still take the blame.
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Old 09-05-2007, 03:08 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepsi Man
So now...just questioning based on that analogy, as I'm not even entirely sure how I feel about all this...are you saying that if a drunk driver kills someone, you blame the people that did not stop him from getting behind the wheel?
Just to address your question, no I don't believe the people who stop a person from getting into a car should be the one's taking the blame. I mean that if you did see someone getting into a vehicle drunk, you would try to stop them, wouldn't you? You know, for the health and safety of them, and others? No one tried to stop Chris Benoit from the sounds of it. I'm not laying blame on anyone, rather trying to take it off them. I'm assuming that there were people close to Chris Benoit and that if they had seen him operating a vehicle drunk, they would have stopped him. If brain damage and drink driving can be compared (and they can't), and no one stopped Chris Benoit from "driving," surely they didn't know he was drinking.

My ideology behind it was that Chris Benoit is kind of precedent for these sort of things. No one expected Benoit to murder, it was not a foreseeable outcome. The results of drink driving are very foreseeable. Just throwing that out there.

But as WWKD, it is retarded to compare the two anyway, so I don't know why I bothered with this.
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Old 09-05-2007, 10:34 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepsi Man
So now...just questioning based on that analogy, as I'm not even entirely sure how I feel about all this...are you saying that if a drunk driver kills someone, you blame the people that did not stop him from getting behind the wheel?

Actually, yeah, bar patrons cant let those that are plastered get behind the wheel. There was a case where a place got sued because a drunk who was drinking there wrecked afterwards and left someone disabled for life. They have to call them a taxi or whatever but they cant drive away.
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Old 09-06-2007, 12:18 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Ninti the Mad
Actually, yeah, bar patrons cant let those that are plastered get behind the wheel. There was a case where a place got sued because a drunk who was drinking there wrecked afterwards and left someone disabled for life. They have to call them a taxi or whatever but they cant drive away.
Bartenders and friends are not the same thing, and I would just like to say that I personally disagree with that anyway. Anyone legally allowed to drive in the first place should be educated on the results of drunk driving enough to be held responsible for letting themselves get into such a situation.
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Old 09-06-2007, 01:28 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepsi Man
Bartenders and friends are not the same thing, and I would just like to say that I personally disagree with that anyway. Anyone legally allowed to drive in the first place should be educated on the results of drunk driving enough to be held responsible for letting themselves get into such a situation.

There are still laws on it no matter how you look at it.
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Old 09-06-2007, 10:19 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Ninti the Mad
There are still laws on it no matter how you look at it.
Sure, there are laws, but random people/friends are still different from staff.
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Old 09-06-2007, 02:06 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninti the Mad
Actually, yeah, bar patrons cant let those that are plastered get behind the wheel. There was a case where a place got sued because a drunk who was drinking there wrecked afterwards and left someone disabled for life. They have to call them a taxi or whatever but they cant drive away.
I'm assuming you mean the bar staff, not the patrons.
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:15 PM   #13
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Alienoid, you have out done youself, really bravo.

No one is responsible for what Benoit did, other than Benoit. How the fuck would I, or anyone else whio knew him or didn't would know he had concsussions? How was anyone to know that those untreated concussions, that no one other than maybe Nancy knew about, was going to cause him to go crazy?
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:20 PM   #14
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There's really no point in going back and forth here. Benoit mudered 2 human beings. ok, that's settled. He's at fault for that.

But now there's an big issue here. Were these mental disorders a big part in his decision making process the night of the murders. If so, then the industry has a huge issue to take care of here. Benoit's case might just very well change a lot of things in wrestling.
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:25 PM   #15
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So by your logic, it was WWE's fault when Angle became addicted to pills, and went crazy? I mean it's part of the bussiness, and it helps him wrestle through it, which what is expeted of them. So really, Angle has the WWE to blame and not himself.
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:28 PM   #16
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with steroids, pills, pain killers, whatever.....of course the blame goes on the guy taking them first hand. nobody is making him take them. well, some may argue that to an extent I guess.

However, if management knows this is going on and does nothing to stop he/she when there is a problem, then you have to point another finger at those people.
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:32 PM   #17
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I agree with Loose Cannon. This is pretty much an argument based on political beliefs, so there's not too much point going back and forth. These are discussion boards, though.

For the record, because I know a lot of people here are stupid, I'm not saying that Benoit is not a killer. If he didn't kill himself, he should have been tried and convicted for manslaughter. That's all I'm saying it is, though...manslaughter. Still fucking awful, but in the law's eye, it is a step down. This is a good thing for those who wanted to remember Chris Benoit's career, without mashing it up with his personal life, because it means Chris Benoit was not a cold-blooded killer. A killer? Unfortunately for all involved, yes, but his crime was under diminished capacity.

What we are essentially arguing is whether there should be diminished capacity, and whether or not there should be layers in the law, which is politics, and pointless to get into here.
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06
I agree with Loose Cannon. This is pretty much an argument based on political beliefs, so there's not too much point going back and forth. These are discussion boards, though.

For the record, because I know a lot of people here are stupid, I'm not saying that Benoit is not a killer. If he didn't kill himself, he should have been tried and convicted for manslaughter. That's all I'm saying it is, though...manslaughter. Still fucking awful, but in the law's eye, it is a step down. This is a good thing for those who wanted to remember Chris Benoit's career, without mashing it up with his personal life, because it means Chris Benoit was not a cold-blooded killer. A killer? Unfortunately for all involved, yes, but his crime was under diminished capacity.

What we are essentially arguing is whether there should be diminished capacity, and whether or not there should be layers in the law, which is politics, and pointless to get into here.
Who is to blame for his diminished capacity??
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:33 PM   #19
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I know this, I was going by Alienoid logic.
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:36 PM   #20
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Also, as for this being political, I'm a Liberal, so....
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:50 PM   #21
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Also, as for this being political, I'm a Liberal, so....
Can I buy some weed from you?
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:59 PM   #22
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Can I buy some weed from you?
What you need? Bout to smoke some of BC's finest.
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:39 PM   #23
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Anyone comparing mental/orbital trauma to drunk driving is retarded.

A drunk knows that drinking and getting behind a wheel can hurt someone.

An athlete does not REASONABLY know that getting hit in the head will cause him to kill someone. IF this is true, then there is no way to know if Benoit KNEW the extent of the damage, or the possible effects of it.

Does this make it so it's not murder? NO. Does this possibly remove intent? YES. Does this possibly remove reasonably derived intent? YES.

Did Benoit murder someone? YES. Did he do it on purpose? Maybe, maybe not. Can you still blame Benoit for what happened? Sure. However, this possibly rules out that he did it in cold blood, and that he's some sort of monster.
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:42 PM   #24
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Also, Alienoid, this wouldn't be manslaughter, it would still be murder. More likely than not, if this is true, he would have been found to have been insane.
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:42 PM   #25
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Shit..... I'd hate to be related to Mark Briscoe...
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:43 PM   #26
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Could it have been prevented had he simply gone to a doctor and had his head checked? Probably.
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:46 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instant Classic
Could it have been prevented had he simply gone to a doctor and had his head checked? Probably.
Depends on when it would have been caught really. It's not like brain trauma can just be fixed. It's a game of "what ifs" at this point.
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:48 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do?
Depends on when it would have been caught really. It's not like brain trauma can just be fixed. It's a game of "what ifs" at this point.
No, but it can be treated, and he most likely would have retired, something that sounds like it should have been done 5 years ago.
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:54 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instant Classic
No, but it can be treated, and he most likely would have retired, something that sounds like it should have been done 5 years ago.
Like LC said though, he should have had some sort of cat scan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Benoit was diagnosed with a concussion within the last 2 years ( I think when he was feuding with Booker T), meaning this should have given him CAT scans at some point there.

I think there are more people to blame then just Benoit. Like I said origionally, athletes don't expect to go crazy and kill someone because of a concussion. If Benoit was fine, and this did come on suddenly, it's hard to blame him for not having his head checked out if he didn't have any issues with it, or symptoms. Should doctors have done followups? Should WWE make people do followups? Maybe.

I'm not saying Benoit wasn't in the wrong. We'll never know 100% what happened. I'm just saying if this is true, I don't think Benoit is a cold blooded murderer, or someone who should be held 100% responsible for his actions. If this was true, and he was alive and it went to court, the courts would find it as insanity.
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Old 09-05-2007, 02:48 PM   #30
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he had to have gone to the doctor though and had a Cat scan sometime. I don't see how any wrestler wouldn't do this on a quartely basis. If so, you've got to wonder what doctors told him and didn't tell him.
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Old 09-05-2007, 03:02 PM   #31
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Also, I'd say it's a split responsibility between the WWE and Benoit in regards to Benoit's health. I'm in no way saying the WWE is actually responsible for what happened. However, Benoit should be concerned about his own health and get checked up, but likewise, the WWE should be watching out for the best interest of it's employees.
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Old 09-05-2007, 03:04 PM   #32
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I think the point we are both me and BDC making is that, while he isnt a calculated cold blooded killer we thought he was, he is still resonsible for his actions, and more importantly the actions that lead to, and caused this tradegy to happen.
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Old 09-05-2007, 03:08 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instant Classic
I think the point we are both me and BDC making is that, while he isnt a calculated cold blooded killer we thought he was, he is still resonsible for his actions, and more importantly the actions that lead to, and caused this tradegy to happen.
I understand where you're coming from. Legally however, if this is true, he wouldn't be responsible for his actions. Likewise, it's hard to hold him accountable for the actions leading up to it if he had no reason to believe what it would cause later.

And you can't argue that a drunk may not know what drinking and getting behind the wheel of a car can do. What it comes down to is what an average person reasonablly knows. An average person knows drinking and driving can lead to killing someone. An average person does not know that an athletic career can directly lead to you killing someone.
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Old 09-05-2007, 03:16 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do?
I understand where you're coming from. Legally however, if this is true, he wouldn't be responsible for his actions. Likewise, it's hard to hold him accountable for the actions leading up to it if he had no reason to believe what it would cause later.

And you can't argue that a drunk may not know what drinking and getting behind the wheel of a car can do. What it comes down to is what an average person reasonablly knows. An average person knows drinking and driving can lead to killing someone. An average person does not know that an athletic career can directly lead to you killing someone.
Ignorance doesn't not negate accountablility in any sence.
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Old 09-05-2007, 03:19 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
Ignorance doesn't not negate accountablility in any sence.
I'll get to your other post in a minute, but i'd like to point out, if you read what I said above, yes it does. Legally, responsibility is derived from average, social, common knowledge. So legally, if the average person is ignorant of something, then yes, it can negate accountability.
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Old 09-05-2007, 03:23 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do?
I'll get to your other post in a minute, but i'd like to point out, if you read what I said above, yes it does. Legally, responsibility is derived from average, social, common knowledge. So legally, if the average person is ignorant of something, then yes, it can negate accountability.
I meant ignorance of the law doesn't negate accountablility. And if you bash your own brains in to the point you don't know what you are doing any more, still makes you accountable. The same goes for going on a bad acid trip and killing someone during such a trip. Still accountable, even though you think you are killing the devil or something.
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Old 09-05-2007, 03:24 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
Ignorance doesn't not negate accountablility in any sence.
Now you're arguing morals and politics. While it would be great if everybody knew everything in the world, they don't, and you can't act like they do. As WWKD said, it was not expected Chris Benoit would murder. I can see why you would hold him responsible for participating in events where his head gets smashed over and over again, and then bad stuff happens, but you can't solely blame Benoit for that. If you're going to use ignorance to hang people, anyone who hit Chris Benoit is also guilty. The WWE would also be guilty for being ignorant of what their sport can cause.

I'm not saying everyone who has hit Benoit is accountable, or that Vince McMahon should go to jail, all I am saying is that there are gray areas with this sort of stuff. That's why in cases like these, you usually just go by the state of mind at the time of the event. In this case, it appears that Chris Benoit was not of sound mind. If you want to argue about who is responsible for Chris Benoit not being of sound mind, then you get a really messy palette. Chris Benoit himself is partially responsible, yes. He consented to the business. So is the business itself. It hit Chris Benoit just as hard as he hit it.
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Old 09-05-2007, 03:16 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Instant Classic
I think the point we are both me and BDC making is that, while he isnt a calculated cold blooded killer we thought he was, he is still resonsible for his actions, and more importantly the actions that lead to, and caused this tradegy to happen.
WWKD said it way better than I can, so I'm going to direct you to his post.

From the few law classes I took, I learned how operative that "responsible" is in a legal sense. Is Benoit responsible for the actions that led up to this? Personally, I do not think so, to a point. As WWKD said, it's like driving and then getting in an accident. Perhaps you shouldn't have been driving, ay? I'd normally be very similar in my hypotheticals, but WWKD is on the ball, and it's 4:15 am over here. He deserves all the positive rep in the world.

The big finding of this report is that Chris Benoit may NOT be responsible for what happened at the time of the crime. Fuck what went before it for a second, when he killed his wife and son, he was not legally sane. It's a small relief, as he is still a killer, but he's not cold-bolded in this case, as we can all agree on.
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Old 09-05-2007, 03:20 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06
WWKD said it way better than I can, so I'm going to direct you to his post.

From the few law classes I took, I learned how operative that "responsible" is in a legal sense. Is Benoit responsible for the actions that led up to this? Personally, I do not think so, to a point. As WWKD said, it's like driving and then getting in an accident. Perhaps you shouldn't have been driving, ay? I'd normally be very similar in my hypotheticals, but WWKD is on the ball, and it's 4:15 am over here. He deserves all the positive rep in the world.

The big finding of this report is that Chris Benoit may NOT be responsible for what happened at the time of the crime. Fuck what went before it for a second, when he killed his wife and son, he was not legally sane. It's a small relief, as he is still a killer, but he's not cold-bolded in this case, as we can all agree on.
Yeah, he goes from cold blooded to a neglectful, ignorant, crazy killer, big relief their. Plus all his matches sucked.
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Old 09-05-2007, 03:04 PM   #40
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Alieniod...I know I'm a mark. Nancy Benoit had been concerned about Chris's health, I remember reading that. Also, her saying he needs to be home to help with Daniel could have been just something she was saying to get Chris out of the ring. It is hard to tell someone they need to quit the job they love, so she may have been using that as a way to hide what she really felt. But I can't say for sure as I am no her.

Also, I already commented above on how it is Benoit's fault, not Vince's.
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