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Old 10-08-2007, 09:05 PM   #1
JT
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Same thing here...got this shit sucks
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Old 10-08-2007, 09:22 PM   #2
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I'm really not trying to slam RoH, but they aren't big. And they aren't even ECW big. ECW wasn't even more than a regional promotion ever at its biggest. Which why it crumbled, it streched itself too thin. Anyhow, yes we need a real alternative to WWE, but their isn't any.
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Old 10-08-2007, 10:16 PM   #3
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Getting rid of another double post. Stupid connection.
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Old 10-08-2007, 11:05 PM   #4
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I wouldn't call RoH a local fed, but they are only a de facto third place.

Come to think of it, TNA and WWE are only de facto second and first place.
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Old 10-08-2007, 11:26 PM   #5
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Last one.

End of the double posts.
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Old 10-09-2007, 02:12 AM   #6
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De-facto or not, they're 3rd. You can't argue they're not. They're the 3rd largest wrestling company in North America right now.

A tv show putting them on in the majority of American markets would make them a national fed.

As far as exact numbers, I don't have them, nor do I know where to get them. The numbers I'm giving are based off the attendance counts given by ROH fans and staff (and in the Japanese shows cases, the stats that were reported over there.)

Could a small indy fed be making more of a profit off of dvds? Possible, but not probable. Quite simply, I don't know of any indy fed that puts out as many DVDs as they do, that has as wide of a reach as they do.

Anywho, I don't feel like dragging this out. ROH is not a local fed. They're a regional fed. Small? Smaller than ECW. However, size wise, they are the third biggest wrestling Company in North America, and are also 3rd as far as reach goes. You can't consider them a "local" fed when they normally run shows in markets outside of their local territory. You can't consider them a "local" fed, when they do shows outside the country, and have pay-per-view, be it taped or not.

ROH can't be compared to TNA, it's not close in regards to the market. However, comparing ROH to your run of the mill indy fed also doesn't make sense, because anyone with half a brain should be able to see they're not your run of the mill indy fed.
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Old 10-09-2007, 09:06 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by What Would Kevin Do?
De-facto or not, they're 3rd. You can't argue they're not. They're the 3rd largest wrestling company in North America right now.
If only that meant as much as you seem to think it does.
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:31 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
If only that meant as much as you seem to think it does.
I'd be interested to hear just what you think I think that means.

I'm not saying ROH is #3 to rate them in terms of awesomeness, or to compare them to WWE, TNA, old ECW, etc. All I'm saying is that ROH is the biggest wrestling company in North America after WWE and TNA, and that there's really not another "indy" fed they can be logically compared to.

Ultimately, acting like ROH is competing with TNA, or has a chance of doing so in the future, is retarded. Acting like ROH is huge, and is nationally known, or even known by 30% of WWE's American fan base, is retarded. However, acting like ROH is has no following outside of a local base, that they're not atleast a small regional fed, and that ROH is not the biggest "indy" company right now, is also retarded.
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Old 10-09-2007, 09:39 AM   #9
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Look, I'm tired of arguing with you guys on the size of RoH. You all stick to your dogmatic guns about how awesome. And I keep asking for proof. Then you all say some fan's head count was between 600 to 1000. Then you start talking about profits, as if they mean anything besides how well RoH is doing as a business, not in terms of scale of their business. I would love to be proved wrong. But until you can show me something beside your fervent dedication to RoH, we are going to be in deadlock.
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:22 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
Look, I'm tired of arguing with you guys on the size of RoH. You all stick to your dogmatic guns about how awesome. And I keep asking for proof. Then you all say some fan's head count was between 600 to 1000. Then you start talking about profits, as if they mean anything besides how well RoH is doing as a business, not in terms of scale of their business. I would love to be proved wrong. But until you can show me something beside your fervent dedication to RoH, we are going to be in deadlock.
But diversion's such a great way to argue without actually proving anything.
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:25 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
Look, I'm tired of arguing with you guys on the size of RoH. You all stick to your dogmatic guns about how awesome. And I keep asking for proof. Then you all say some fan's head count was between 600 to 1000. Then you start talking about profits, as if they mean anything besides how well RoH is doing as a business, not in terms of scale of their business. I would love to be proved wrong. But until you can show me something beside your fervent dedication to RoH, we are going to be in deadlock.
Fair enough. Unfortunately, the proof you're asking for isn't something that I, or anyone I know has access too. I'm going to have to go with the estimated crowd size from people in attendance, since I don/t have access to ROH's ticket sale info.

Honestly, it doesn't really matter. Us arguing about ROH's size or profit changes nothing about ROH.
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:04 AM   #12
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WWE does suck but I think No Mercy was booked fine.
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:28 AM   #13
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And I guess it is splitting hairs by saying RoH is a big local or a small reginional.
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:35 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
And I guess it is splitting hairs by saying RoH is a big local or a small reginional.
Honestly though, what part of this isn't splitting hairs? Wrestling is horribly subjective. Outside of hard statistics, such as actually ticket sales, dvd sales, etc, which I don't know who, outside of ROH, or any company in question has, you can't judge wrestling anything but subjectively. There are still people who LOVE WWE. There are people who LOVE TNA. People are going to watch what they like, praise what they like, etc. I just which more people would give other products a chance.
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:35 AM   #15
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KK means that RoH being #3 doesn't mean anything to anyone besides people like you and RoH. RoH is number 3 because no one else is. Just like TNA is #2 and WWE #1. There is no comeption. It is like telling you mom she is your favorite mom. She is your only mom, therefore she must be number 1.
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:40 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
KK means that RoH being #3 doesn't mean anything to anyone besides people like you and RoH. RoH is number 3 because no one else is. Just like TNA is #2 and WWE #1. There is no comeption. It is like telling you mom she is your favorite mom. She is your only mom, therefore she must be number 1.
I know exactly what he's saying, and I agree. The only reason I even bring it up, is because it shows ROH's status over other indy feds. If you take ROH out of the equation, there wouldn't be a clear/accepted #3. It would essentially be WWE, TNA, then a shitload of random indy feds. The fact that ROH can be recognized as number three cleary, shows it comparitive status over the indy feds
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Old 10-09-2007, 12:22 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
KK means that RoH being #3 doesn't mean anything to anyone besides people like you and RoH. RoH is number 3 because no one else is. Just like TNA is #2 and WWE #1. There is no comeption. It is like telling you mom she is your favorite mom. She is your only mom, therefore she must be number 1.
Someone who read, thought, and drew a conclusion?

Wow. Did I leave TPWW?

So...Kevin apparently doesn't believe it's meaningful, but has continued to argue over and assert it. That confuses me slightly, as it seems a contradiction to continue such a distinction unless one believes it actually, you know, is a distinction.

But I guess it makes sense in the same way that thinking a bloody promo under a ladder is gay means that I fucking hate RoH and everything it stands for, and would never give it a fair shake.

But I digress.

Pro Wrestling is a dying market.

Okay, before Destor pisses himself over the phrase "dying," let me clarify:

The interest in wrestling is at a major low. You can talk about your slumps, and how it's a "boom or bust" business (Though that is wholly artificial and mandated only by the way things are booked), but interest has been dwindling for years now, and WWE, the only promotion of any real duration, has been faltering even under its new stars. IT's doing good, business-wise, but it's cutting a lot of corners to make that happen. TNA, the only other national televised wrestling program, does ratings that can be bested by most infomercials.

Wrestling interest just isn't that high. The number one slot means sweet fuck all, because people don't care. Sure, ratings were once lower, but that was a t a point where a 2.0 was actually a worthwhile number that could make Nielsen's top ten. Nowadays, WWE can't stay on the top ten with much higher numbers. TNA couldn't support themselves with more aggressive touring, and they're #2. If not dying, the wrestling biz is massively faltering.

At this point, there is no major interest. The idea of a competitive market is a pretty laughable one, and the state of the "top three" should be a warning to anyone who might decide to actually run anything competitive. RoH took how long to get a PPV deal? TNA took how long to get on TV? We're talking a longterm investment with a slim chance of real payoff.
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Old 10-09-2007, 11:01 AM   #18
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Meh, it is just splitting hairs to me now.
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Old 10-09-2007, 11:10 AM   #19
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So can we all agree that RoH is a distant third, which doesn't really mean shit.
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Old 10-09-2007, 11:30 AM   #20
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Quote:
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So can we all agree that RoH is a distant third, which doesn't really mean shit.
Yep, pretty much.
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Old 10-09-2007, 11:33 AM   #21
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Yep, pretty much.
Somone has sense anyways.
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Old 10-09-2007, 12:04 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WWKD
Could a small indy fed be making more of a profit off of dvds? Possible, but not probable. Quite simply, I don't know of any indy fed that puts out as many DVDs as they do, that has as wide of a reach as they do.
I can't leave this alone because you don't know what you are talking about. Number of DVD sales does not mean they are making more profit. Say for example it cost $2.50 to produce a single dvd (no matter what promotion we are talking about). Now lets says RoH makes and sells 100 DVD's for $5.00 american a piece. They have made a profit of $250. Now lets say PWG only sells 50 DVD's, but has them priced at $7.50 a piece. Guess what, PWG just made the same amount of profit as RoH. What is that, I just heard PWG just sold 1 more dvd, that means they have made $255 in profit. They just made more profit than RoH!!!! OMG, PWG is now #3 they are going to revolutionize the wrestling world!!!!! PWG is the best!!!!!1111!!!11!!1!

See that is what you are doing...well maybe I'm over doing it, but it is the same idea.
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Old 10-09-2007, 12:35 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
I can't leave this alone because you don't know what you are talking about. Number of DVD sales does not mean they are making more profit. Say for example it cost $2.50 to produce a single dvd (no matter what promotion we are talking about). Now lets says RoH makes and sells 100 DVD's for $5.00 american a piece. They have made a profit of $250. Now lets say PWG only sells 50 DVD's, but has them priced at $7.50 a piece. Guess what, PWG just made the same amount of profit as RoH. What is that, I just heard PWG just sold 1 more dvd, that means they have made $255 in profit. They just made more profit than RoH!!!! OMG, PWG is now #3 they are going to revolutionize the wrestling world!!!!! PWG is the best!!!!!1111!!!11!!1!

See that is what you are doing...well maybe I'm over doing it, but it is the same idea.
Numbers look nice. That's about it, but that's all you need for a pseudo-science argument.
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Old 10-09-2007, 08:45 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
I can't leave this alone because you don't know what you are talking about. Number of DVD sales does not mean they are making more profit. Say for example it cost $2.50 to produce a single dvd (no matter what promotion we are talking about). Now lets says RoH makes and sells 100 DVD's for $5.00 american a piece. They have made a profit of $250. Now lets say PWG only sells 50 DVD's, but has them priced at $7.50 a piece. Guess what, PWG just made the same amount of profit as RoH. What is that, I just heard PWG just sold 1 more dvd, that means they have made $255 in profit. They just made more profit than RoH!!!! OMG, PWG is now #3 they are going to revolutionize the wrestling world!!!!! PWG is the best!!!!!1111!!!11!!1!

See that is what you are doing...well maybe I'm over doing it, but it is the same idea.
Ummm... Duh?

You're not telling me anything I don't already know. Just because you can make up some numbers to show how PWG COULD be making more of a profit than ROH, doesn't mean they are. I understand what you're saying, and without hard numbers, it's hard to specifically prove (despite is being a pretty much accepted thought in the wrestling world) that ROH is # 3 in terms of profit. It's possible they're not... It's just not probable.
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Old 10-09-2007, 12:14 PM   #25
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I think BDC got it.
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Old 10-09-2007, 12:39 PM   #26
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KK, TPWW's answer to a question that was already answered.
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Old 10-09-2007, 01:19 PM   #27
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I just wanted to use "Psuedo-Science."
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Old 10-09-2007, 02:11 PM   #28
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You mean the word psuedi-science or use a psudedo-science answer? Or both? Psuedo is a fun word.
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Old 10-09-2007, 09:21 PM   #29
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No you don't get it. I'm trying to tell you that profit is not they way of measuring a company's scale of business. Not just a wrestling company but any company. I don't care if a bunch of carnies think it is right when I know better.

Also no one is arguing RoH isn't #3. I'm just trying to show you the dangers of latching on to one figure when it proves nothing besides the fact that RoH knows how to turn a profit with what they have. If you want to argue profie, the Kansas City Royals are one of the few baseball teams to turn a profit with out the league's support and they udderly suck as a team. Same thing goes for the Cavaliers in the NBA.

So please quit bring up their dvd profit because it prove nothing. And that is the point I'm trying to drive home. The point is that dvd profit just means they make money on dvd sales. And that RoH has a good mark up on their DVD's so that they make a profit on them, which is my point. I'm going to keep saying my point is that RoH making profit on DVD sale or anything else just proves that they know how to make money selling dvds and proves nothing of their size.
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:51 PM   #30
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The way I see it, there are two ways to measure a wrestling company.

1. Audience. How many people are watching, how many people are they reaching, etc
2. Profit. It's a business, they need to make money.

A high audience does not equal high profit, and high profit does not indicate a high audience. I understand this, I don't know why you seem to think I don't. I never said that because they profit on DVDs, they have more viewers. I was saying that it is IMPORTANT that they profit on dvds, and that overall, they turn a profit.

The fact that they make a profit doesn't prove anything about their size. However, it is important they turn a profit, because that's what keeps the company going.
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Old 10-09-2007, 11:07 PM   #31
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No offense WWKD but the way you see it means sweet fuck all to the rest of the world. While it is true that a wrestling company needs to make money, it doesn't prove anything WCW only made a profit once, and it was still the #1 wrestling company in the world when it was losing the greatest amount of money. Your opinion on the matter means nothing. I'm not trying to attack you or RoH. I'm just saying that you are mistaken.
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