Triple H vs Shawn Michaels

[St. Jimmy]

But of course.

[Kane Knight]

Just checking.

[The One]

Vegas, I can respect what you're saying and everything, but I personally feel as though a lot of people still carry some grudge against Triple H from the World Champ on RAW era where he never let go of the belt...well...never REALLY let go...

If I had more time and energy I would try to come up with a more articulate response, but in the mean time I'm going to admit that I am a huge Triple H fan (easily makes my top 10). In the meantime, would you please list off the first 10 or 20 or whatever number of guys it was that you could think of off the top of your head who are better performers. Because honestly, you take Michaels, Flair, some room for arguments on Angle, Austin, Benoit...and I'm not too sure I can think of anyone else who's better between the ropes...

[Scott Delaney]

Originally Posted by Johnny Vegas HHH fucked up when he started listening to HBK about how to get to the top.

Johnny Vegas - you are COMPLETE shit for brains. This has to rank as one of the top 5 stupidest comments in Tpww history. This comment is almost dumber than Johnny Vegas admitting to liking "chocoloate flavored condoms" back in January 2006.

[Johnny Vegas]

Originally Posted by Scott Delamey Johnny Vegas - you are COMPLETE shit for brains. This has to rank as one of the top 5 stupidest comments in Tpww history. This comment is almost dumber than Johnny Vegas admitting to liking "chocoloate flavored condoms" back in January 2006.

lol this lame ass dude is still angry with me. Just because you brought up that lie and brought it in a topic that i posted in has placed mud butt on any type of credibility and/or personality you MIGHT have had LOL sorry you don't agree with my post :meh:

[Scott Delaney]

Originally Posted by Johnny Vegas lol this lame ass dude is still angry with me. Just because you brought that up that lie and brought it in a topic that i posted in has placed mud butt on any type of credibility and/or personality you MIGHT have had LOL sorry you don't agree with my post :meh:

Hopefully by working hard (but not smart), I can win back some much needed credibility from you.

[Kane Knight]

Dude, you left teeth marks on his jock.

[The One]

Yeah, but I'm a remarkably clean head giver...no saliva was wasted in oral pleasing of Triple H...

[Scott Delaney]

Some random comments.

-HBK helped carry the WWE during its down period (alongside Taker and Bret). HBK helped keep the WWE afloat with the two aforementioned men.

-In the year 2000, quarterly ratings were actually at its highest when Shane McMahon and Triple H were on TV (not The Rock!). I dare anyone to look this up.

-HBK was the better overall wrestler than HHH.

-HHH was a very good wrestler who that could "tell a story" almost better than anyone (almost as good as his good friend Bret ). Even today, HHH is a good wrestler.

-HHH deserves a lot more respect than shown in this thread. If getting to the top was as easy as "kissing ass", than Triple H wouldn't have made it. Plain and simple. HHH was a guy that made friends with the right people and worked his butt off. Where I come from, that's fucking smart. Period.

-The WWE, Vince McMahon, and management.....NOT TRIPLE H are the ones who are ultimately responsible if certain wrestler(s) get deliberately held back. Even if Triple H does (allegedly) have a voice, it's ultimately management's decision to go through with it. Make no mistake about it. EVERYONE is out for themselves. Flair, Foley, The Rock, Austin, and even Bret "Ghandi" Hart. etc., etc., etc. Why single out Triple H?


-RVD screwed RVD. Anyone who thinks Triple H is to blame for RVD's lack of push needs their head checked. RVD's sloppy in-ring work and questionable attitude may have some things to do with it don'tchya think?

-Bret Hart is still a crudge garrying cry baby who still can't get over the past. Bret still continues to take "pot shots" at Vince and HBK. Meanwhile, HBK....while not perfect, has made a respectable effort to change his life for the better. HBK is now a legitimate lockerroom leader backstage. Kudos to HBK for attempting to walk a righteous path. Shame on Bret for cheating on his wife, while continuously displaying a "holier than thou" self-righteous attitude. Bret is a disgrace to Owen.

-Want to know what's ironic? (if 'irony' is the right term here). In 1997, Shawn had Bret in the sharpshooter only to have Bret reverse it. 10 years later, I think its safe to say that Shawn has pretty much reversed the sharp shooter on Bret.

Nowadays, it's HBK who has taken the "high road" and is now the level headed one. Nowadays, it's Bret who continues to act like a bitter child...taking pot shots at HBK and Vince whenever he's given an opportunity to. Interesting how Bret was silent towards Vince during the Hall of Fame induction.

[Johnny Vegas]

Originally Posted by Scott Delaney Some random comments. -HBK helped carry the WWE during its down period (alongside Taker and Bret). HBK helped keep the WWE afloat with the two aforementioned men. -In the year 2000, quarterly ratings were actually at its highest when Shane McMahon and Triple H were on TV (not The Rock!). I dare anyone to look this up. -HBK was the better overall wrestler than HHH. -HHH was a very good wrestler who that could "tell a story" almost better than anyone (almost as good as his good friend Bret ). Even today, HHH is a good wrestler. -HHH deserves a lot more respect than shown in this thread. If getting to the top was as easy as "kissing ass", than Triple H wouldn't have made it. Plain and simple. HHH was a guy that made friends with the right people and worked his butt off. Where I come from, that's fucking smart. Period. -The WWE, Vince McMahon, and management.....NOT TRIPLE H are the ones who are ultimately responsible if certain wrestler(s) get deliberately held back. Even if Triple H does (allegedly) have a voice, it's ultimately management's decision to go through with it. Make no mistake about it. EVERYONE is out for themselves. Flair, Foley, The Rock, Austin, and even Bret "Ghandi" Hart. etc., etc., etc. Why single out Triple H? -RVD screwed RVD. Anyone who thinks Triple H is to blame for RVD's lack of push needs their head checked. RVD's sloppy in-ring work and questionable attitude may have some things to do with it don'tchya think? -Bret Hart is still a crudge garrying cry baby who still can't get over the past. Bret still continues to take "pot shots" at Vince and HBK. Meanwhile, HBK....while not perfect, has made a respectable effort to change his life for the better. HBK is now a legitimate lockerroom leader backstage. Kudos to HBK for attempting to walk a righteous path. Shame on Bret for cheating on his wife, while continuously displaying a "holier than thou" self-righteous attitude. Bret is a disgrace to Owen. -Want to know what's ironic? (if 'irony' is the right term here). In 1997, Shawn had Bret in the sharpshooter only to have Bret reverse it. 10 years later, I think its safe to say that Shawn has pretty much reversed the sharp shooter on Bret. Nowadays, it's HBK who has taken the "high Nowadays, it's HBK who has taken the "high road" and is now the level headed one. Nowadays, it's Bret who continues to act like a bitter child...taking pot shots at HBK and Vince whenever he's given an opportunity to. Interesting how Bret was silent towards Vince during the Hall of Fame induction.

Honestly, i was going to respond more to this passage, but once i saw "Quarterly ratings show Shane & HHH, etc" there is no point. If you are going to honestly say that THOSE TWO were the reason for those ratings, then please give your brain to the salvation army. And don't say you didn't say it, b/c you brought that bs to the table.

Sorry to rant a lil, but had to have been one of the worst things i've read here. And trust me, look at my sig; i've seen ugly.

[Scott Delaney]

Originally Posted by Johnny Vegas If you are going to honestly say that THOSE TWO were the reason for those ratings, then please give your brain to the salvation army.

Here's what I said you fucking shit-for-brains:

In the year 2000, quarterly ratings were actually at its highest when Shane McMahon and Triple H were on TV (not The Rock!). I dare anyone to look this up.

Interesting how you stayed silent when people blamed Triple H for the low ratings a few years back (circa 2002).

Obviously, The Rock and Austin were far more integral to the boom of the Attitude era than Triple H. However, it's not like Triple H just "rode the waves" of a popular era. On the contrary, Triple H himself played an integral role in the overall poularity of the product....you lesbian.

It would be like saying, "Andre The Giant simply rode the wave of the Hogan era."

Rock and Austin were the main draws of the attitude era, but Triple H contributed MAJORLY to the success of the attitude era as well (whether he did it alongside DX or McMahon/Helmsley faction, etc. is irrelevant).

And yes, Bret Hart is STILL a self-righteous, whiny, SELFISH bitch that will NEVER let go of the past.

And YES - quarterly ratings were at its highest (in 2000) when Shane McMahon and Triple H were on the tel-eh-vision set.

[Johnny Vegas]

Originally Posted by Scott Delaney Interesting how you stayed silent when people blamed Triple H for the low ratings a few years back (circa 2002).

lol wtf are you talking about with this statement, really? BECAUSE THEY WERE RIGHT is probably why i "stayed silent". But anyway, ask anyone on this board, or ANYONE ELSE for that matter (except for YOU of course) why those ratings were at a "peak" then. I'm sure HHH and Shane weren't provoking/promo'ing about Val Venis or JBL. Hmmm, probably Rock, Austin, or whomever was making him look good. Rock & Mankind's "This is your life segment" was one of the highest rated segments of RAW history. NOTHING to do with your sugardaddy, until he came out because he HAS to be part of SOMETHING (or at least his nose) big. All i'm saying is that if you are THAT dude, then you don't always have to be in the title hunt. Since 99, he has been 9/10 of his career. The 1/10 was when he was injured.

Look, i'm not knocking HHH or what he has done. It takes two. But come the fuck on ppl, in 2002 you JUST came off of the invasion angle. JUST CAME OFF ONE OF THE DREAM ANGLES OF WRESTLING. But WHO was thrusted in the spotlight? Who kept holding people down and getting in the "higher-ups" ear? Katie fucking Vick?? Are you kidding me? How is it that the early part of that year, NOT only was it soooo fucking predictable that HHH was going to win the title at WM, but made Jericho look like Steph's lap dog. Jericho was the FIRST UNDISPUTED champ, and he (HHH) alone made that shit look irrelevant.

Booker T was as over as he ever was when him and HHH were fueding. HHH HAD to go over though, right? Saying that Booker should get his "bags" and shit like that. Yea, it was supposed to be heat, BUT THIS IS TRIPLE H WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, RIGHT? lol he is supposed to be the biggest heel "ever", but everyone knew that Booker deserved that win.

RVD fucked himself over? You know what, when you are one of the most over ppl in the WWE, getting "Rock/Austin pops", and isn't even a WWE-breed then MAYBE you should at least get SOME kind of title run to see where it leads. It is something fresh, new, and would pull more ECW viewers that probably weren't watching then b/c they knew Vince/HHH wouldn't have any part of a champ from ECW.

Why did HHH have to put over HBK? Lol?! HBK coming back alone gave him more fanbase because his injury was "career ending". So you are going to put someone over who is already going to be big and has established himself in the WWE already?

Vince may not have realized what he was saying when he said it, but when he brought in the nWo, didn't he say "If the WWE is going to die, i'm going to kill it myself by bringing them in" or someone of that relevance. Who was the "top guy" then? I may be incorrect with this statement, but i do remember Vince saying something like that. And why would you even need to bring the nWo over if you are doing soooo well with HHH at the top?

I've said it before and i'll say it again. HHH WANTS be to Flair, wants to be The Rock, wants to be Austin, wants to be Hogan (in terms of popularity) for this generation i guess. But we as fans now know what goes on back there and what he does in order to get himself to the top. Why do you think he has had so many "character changes"? lol c'mon. How many fucking times is he going to make these big comebacks that require signifigant amounts of promo time? Why does he need to be the closest to Ric Flair in terms of title wins?

HHH is good, but imo and in alot of others he will not be thrusted into the greats because of his lack of caring about the long term.

Just another note, i bet you The Rock, Foley, Austin (to an extent), Piper, Undertaker (the guy has been consistently over so he deserves it), and some others get more respect from fans and the industry that the likes of HBK, HHH, Hogan, Jarrett, etc. And at the end of the day, if you have that, you won't have to bury ppl.

[Scott Delaney]

Originally Posted by Johnny Vegas But WHO was thrusted in the spotlight? Who kept holding people down and getting in the "higher-ups" ear? Katie fucking Vick?? Are you kidding me? How is it that the early part of that year, NOT only was it soooo fucking predictable that HHH was going to win the title at WM, but made Jericho look like Steph's lap dog. Jericho was the FIRST UNDISPUTED champ, and he (HHH) alone made that shit look irrelevant. Booker T was as over as he ever was when him and HHH were fueding. HHH HAD to go over though, right? Saying that Booker should get his "bags" and shit like that. Yea, it was supposed to be heat, BUT THIS IS TRIPLE H WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, RIGHT? lol he is supposed to be the biggest heel "ever", but everyone knew that Booker deserved that win.

This is where you and I are disagreeing....you fucking faggot. "HHH this...and HHH that." Again - HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW THAT TRIPLE H WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY OF THE ABOVE?!?!?!?

Again - If anyone was getting "held back", it's solely a result of WWE management and/or Vince McMahon himself not wanting that wrestler to be pushed. Triple H CANNOT be blamed for ANYTHING....even if he did (allegedly) suggest things to the creative team from a selfish point of view.

Even if the WWE are/were (allegedly) letting Triple H "hold back" people, then it's still management/Vince's fault for allowing that. OF COURSE Triple H will create the best possible situation for himself if he's allowed to (as we all would).

RVD fucked himself over? You know what, when you are one of the most over ppl in the WWE, getting "Rock/Austin pops", and isn't even a WWE-breed then MAYBE you should at least get SOME kind of title run to see where it leads. It is something fresh, new, and would pull more ECW viewers that probably weren't watching then b/c they knew Vince/HHH wouldn't have any part of a champ from ECW.

This I'll agree with to an extent. I too believe that RVD should have been given a title run during his 1st year with the company. Since that time however, RVD REFUSED to do the things necessary to get to the next level.

His in-ring work was still sloppy, and his promo ability was still very average. Furthermore, RVD took not-so-subtle shots at the WWE and Triple H in the media. NEVER visiting the troops in Iraq also discerned him as someone who wasn't a TEAM PLAYER. When RVD finally DID win the title, he went ahead and got arrested a month or so later. Bottom line? RVD had the talent, but simply not the attitude. Again - it's extremely lame to blame Triple H for RVD's OWN shortcomings.

[The One]

Originally Posted by Scott Delaney Here's what I said you fucking shit-for-brains: Interesting how you stayed silent when people blamed Triple H for the low ratings a few years back (circa 2002). Obviously, The Rock and Austin were far more integral to the boom of the Attitude era than Triple H. However, it's not like Triple H just "rode the waves" of a popular era. On the contrary, Triple H himself played an integral role in the overall poularity of the product....you lesbian. It would be like saying, "Andre The Giant simply rode the wave of the Hogan era." Rock and Austin were the main draws of the attitude era, but Triple H contributed MAJORLY to the success of the attitude era as well (whether he did it alongside DX or McMahon/Helmsley faction, etc. is irrelevant). And yes, Bret Hart is STILL a self-righteous, whiny, SELFISH bitch that will NEVER let go of the past. And YES - quarterly ratings were at its highest (in 2000) when Shane McMahon and Triple H were on the tel-eh-vision set.

I think this guy is my sock...

[Rammsteinmad]

Draw: Shawn Michaels
In-Ring Ability: Shawn Michaels
Mic Skills: Shawn Michaels
Pull: Triple H

[BigDaddyCool]

It is sacrilege to question the kliq's drawing ablility or power backstage. Anyhow Nash>HBK&HHH>The World.

[Kane Knight]

I can't find a single credible source to back that up, Scott.

[Theo Dious]

Originally Posted by Johnny Vegas HHH fucked up when he started listening to HBK about how to get to the top.

This is, quite possibly, the stupidest thing I have ever head anyone say about wrestling. How can you say he "fucked up" when listening to HBK not only got him to the top, but got him into a place where he can do anything he wants, and will actually OWN the damn company one day? You may not like how he did it or where it led, but to suggest that it wasn't a success is asinine.

RVD fucked himself over? You know what, when you are one of the most over ppl in the WWE, getting "Rock/Austin pops", and isn't even a WWE-breed then MAYBE you should at least get SOME kind of title run to see where it leads. It is something fresh, new, and would pull more ECW viewers that probably weren't watching then b/c they knew Vince/HHH wouldn't have any part of a champ from ECW.

They DID give him SOME kind of title run to see where it led. They also launched an entire new brand around him, and made him WWE and ECW champion simultaneously. It led to him being arrested for smoking pot in a car.

Where's my picture of RVD blowing the elephant...?

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by DarthTedious They DID give him SOME kind of title run to see where it led. They also launched an entire new brand around him, and made him WWE and ECW champion simultaneously. It led to him being arrested for smoking pot in a car.

And they did so in a timely fashion when he was most over, yes?

Oh, wait, they waited several years, they let his popularity subside, like with so many others.

Sure, RVD would have eventually blown the elephant anyway, but let's not pretend his drug use would have even been made an issue were it not for the fake Wellness Policy after Eddie died.

[Johnny Vegas]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight And they did so in a timely fashion when he was most over, yes? Oh, wait, they waited several years, they let his popularity subside, like with so many others. Sure, RVD would have eventually blown the elephant anyway, but let's not pretend his drug use would have even been made an issue were it not for the fake Wellness Policy after Eddie died.

And Dark T, talking about the "HHH fucked up when he listened to HBK" thing, i was describing why he will not be a great in the fans eyes. NOT what is the "smart" thing to do to get to the top. You work hard, not smart. Thats how people gain respect. Yea yea, "HHH doesn't need respect when he is in the position he is in." But honestly, especially in that industry, respect is gold. Like i said before, i take NOTHING away from how much of an asshole he was (kayfabe.....yea) when battling Rock, Austin, Foley, etc.

Another point out of my input in this thread: When smart wrestling fans talk to their kids about who they grew up on and who "changed" wrestling (ala Ali for boxing, Jordan for basketball, etc.), HHH (unless your a complete HHH mark) will not be in those conversations. More like the main ones like Austin, Foley, Taker, etc. Name-passing. It's one of those things you can't BUY or BURY your way to. It's something that's earned. HBK is the closest to the exception of this because he didn't exactly bury ppl like H, he just didn't want to lose lol.

[Scott Delaney]

Originally Posted by Johnny Vegas And Dark T, talking about the "HHH fucked up when he listened to HBK" thing, i was describing why he will not be a great in the fans eyes. NOT what is the "smart" thing to do to get to the top. You work hard, not smart. Thats how people gain respect. .

Seriously bro, do you even read some of the shit you type?

Triple H will never be mentioned in the same sentence as guys like Austin, Rock, Hogan, Piper, and even Taker and HBK (as has been mentioned in this thread).

I think a large part of this reason, is because Triple H could never become that HUGE face (like the aforementioned names). Triple H bombed misreably as a face in 2002 (although that wasn't entirely his fault) and even now......isn't what you'd consider a tremendous face.

[Johnny Vegas]

Originally Posted by Scott Delaney Seriously bro, do you even read some of the shit you type? Triple H will never be mentioned in the same sentence as guys like Austin, Rock, Hogan, Piper, and even Taker and HBK (as has been mentioned in this thread). I thI think a large part of this reason, is because Triple H could never become that HUGE face (like the aforementioned names). Triple H bombed misreably as a face in 2002 (although that wasn't entirely his fault) and even now......isn't what you'd consider a tremendous face.

smart=taking shortcuts. Wait, forgot who i was replying to: Detective Dumbass lol
i

[Theo Dious]

I'm also sick and tired of people saying "X didn't do what Piper did." Piper did what he did when wrestling was barely more than a freaking carnival sideshow attraction. Doing something first doesn't make you unassailably better than people who do it later.

[Zen v.W.o.]

Originally Posted by DarthTedious I'm also sick and tired of people saying "X didn't do what Piper did." Piper did what he did when wrestling was barely more than a freaking carnival sideshow attraction. Doing something first doesn't make you unassailably better than people who do it later.

Hmm, yeah, wrestling was bigger during his peak years then it is now. How do you think he's got a bigger name then HHH? Besides being much more talented.

[Kane Knight]

Yup. Trips is trying to force a legacy.

The Rockj, Austin, Michaels, Undertaker, and so forth have one. Triple H will probably not be mentioned in the same breath, unless as the "Other guy" from DX, most likely.

[Johnny Vegas]

What makes it so bad, i have this thought in the back of my head that when the WWE is in slumps like they are now, ppl like HHH WANT to try and "carry the company on his back". Instead of changing the product and freshening it up, he insists on trying to be like his slaveowners Flair, HBK, and Nash and be that guy who "carried" the company. (Nash might not belong in there lol)

One problem, HHH. YOU DON'T HAVE TO! Flair/Sting had to carry WCW around '93. Why? Because they WERE pretty much the best thing going there. HBK had to carry the WWF/E during the late '96-'97 years. (Yea, Bret was there, Taker was there, but thats a whole different issue lol)

I swear to the Almighty that if the likes of MVP, CM, Morrison, Edge, hopefully Jericho, J./M. Hardy, Burke, and all the others that are going to be the future of this company are all buried by HHH, i HOPE Vince goes bankrupt.