Benoit

[Afterlife]

Originally Posted by Rob Benoit losing his mind is a theory. Benoit killing 2 people is a fact. I'm going with the facts. And yeah if you don't believe facts then talking to me is worthless. Try talking to a brick wall instead.

Don't be more arrogant than yo'uve earned, kid. You are fully aware that I didn't deny the murders, so don't go on about me "not believing in facts". There is a time to be an asshole, and there is a time to use your fucking brain like a grown-up.

If you want to close your eyes and cover your ears and pretend that it makes sense for a sane man to do what he did, then fine -- go play in Righteous Indignatin Land. The rest of the world is pretty well rested on the notion that he lost it. But, if you're willing to listen to anything before hiding from reality for a moment, understand this: Neither I nor anyone else is saying what he did was good or something to be forgotten. But it was clearly insane. And, wether it makes you comfortable or not, you cannot condemn a man for losing his mind.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Afterlife Don't be more arrogant than yo'uve earned, kid. You are fully aware that I didn't deny the murders, so don't go on about me "not believing in facts". There is a time to be an asshole, and there is a time to use your fucking brain like a grown-up. If you want to close your eyes and cover your ears and pretend that it makes sense for a sane man to do what he did, then fine -- go play in Righteous Indignatin Land. The rest of the world is pretty well rested on the notion that he lost it. But, if you're willing to listen to anything before hiding from reality for a moment, understand this: Neither I nor anyone else is saying what he did was good or something to be forgotten. But it was clearly insane. And, wether it makes you comfortable or not, you cannot condemn a man for losing his mind.

Child? I'm older than you.

What happened to not talking to me?

Glad you can speak for the rest of the world though. Try explaining your theory to Nancy Sullivan's family.

And how exactly do you know Benoit lost his mind when NOBODY has scientific evidence to support it?

[Afterlife]

Originally Posted by Rob Child? I'm older than you. What happened to not talking to me? Glad you can speak for the rest of the world though. Try explaining your theory to Nancy Sullivan's family. And how exactly do you know Benoit lost his mind when NOBODY has scientific evidence to support it?

I'm aware of your age, which is part of why this conversation is so disappointing. And again, I didn't say I wouldn't talk to you. Just a frustrated hyperbole on your resistance to reality.

I'd gladly explain my theory to anybody, Jack. That's why I'm putting it here on the Internet. I'm a theoretician; it's...what I do. The problem, here, is that now you're just draggin' your feet. No, I don't have kids, but that doesn't mean I don't understand the pain of losing a family member. And that's another thing: I do understand what the family is going thru. Maybe I don't empathize on the level that your tunnel vision will justify, but I completely understand. However, I understand a lot of things that you clearly won't accept; not because you can't, but because you want to pretend things away.

I can't imagine why you want to hold on to that kind of negativity instead of examining the situation and letting it go, but that's your path. Personally, I know what I know, and require not the validation or vindication of outside perception.

[Good Ol JG]

we don't know 100% what happened, no one does and no one ever will. i think it's a fairly safe assumption to say he went crazy though. look at all his friends who came out and spoke about him after all this happened. they talked about what a great guy he was, how he was always there for his friends and family, so taking that into consideration i can't just call him the scum of the earth and let it be that. thats extremely cut and dried for my tastes. i won't defend what he did at all, it was terrible and nobody can argue that. but it's just like Kane Knight said above, we don't know everything about the human brain and how it works. and yes, he could've tied his wife up, killed her, played with his son and killed him as part of a prolonged psychotic episode. that doesn't defend or excuse it, but it's happened before. we have no idea why he did it or what triggered it. he could've looked at them and saw demons staring back at him. maybe he through the world was gonna end in some horrific fashion and killing them was a mercy thing in his mind. again, not trying to defend his actions, just making a point that we have no idea what drives a person to madness and what's going through their mind when they go overboard. and it had to be madness if so many people have called him such a great guy and been shocked by what he did.

[Kane Knight]

Yeah, Brain Damage+unreasonable acts+odd behaviour (the text messages)+Reports of odd behaviour off and on for at least a year=Beyond a Reasonable Doubt.

I cannot provide you with a black box recording of Benoit's thoughts, but reasonably, with the level of evidence we've been given, I shouldn't need to. Nobody should need that level of evidence.

[Rob]

That's all true. I'd love to believe the man just went insane in his last 3 days and it wasn't the real Chris Benoit. I respect what the people who knew him said about him after the deaths and I will always respect his abilities in the ring and I enjoyed many a match of his. However the fact still is he killed two innocent people and one was a child. Maybe you have to have your own children to understand fully how hard this is to understand I don't know. It absolutely makes my skin crawl just thinking of how someone could harm their own child.

[Rob]

I just laughed at all of that. Stop trying to make yourself look smarter than everyone else. The bottom line is I chose to take this in black and white. There is no scientific evidence to suggest Benoit snapped or was insane. Over the weekend of the deaths, he did lots of things that were very rational. Was he insane? I don't know. I'm not qualified to make that judgement.

There is however evidence to say he killed Nancy and Daniel because he did. Therefore he is a murderer and I reserve the right to judge a murderer however I like. Just like you do. All the theories in the world are just that.

And how exactly am I holding onto negativity (like I should be speaking positive about a murderer mind you) whilst you continue to post on and yet according to you, you don't need validation of outsiders.

Finally, I'll say it one more time so it's clear. Benoit going insane was never proven and never will be. Benoit killing two people was proven beyond a doubt. Until you can prove to me that he went insane and provide evidence to support your theories, the possibility that Chris Benoit wasn't insane will always exist.

[Good Ol JG]

no one is saying that the fact that he killed a child isn't haneous. i don't think it takes having a child to understand that killing a child or even harming a child is wrong. but from all accounts by people who actually knew him, he was a loving father, that's why it doesn't make sense to just call him a complete bastard and leave it at that. there had to be a reason why he snapped, and we'll never know why, but something other than just "he's a fuckin scum bag murderer" caused this to go down.

[Afterlife]

I'm not trying to make myself look smarter than anyone. In fact, you're the only person here, so far, to think the guy wasn't nuts. The problem with your entire argument, is that there IS evidence that he lost his mind. That evidence, as has been cited a few times in this thread, is the entire situation. None of it fits into the rest of his life.

Also, to clarify another point you're distorting, I don't need approval to state or make my perceptions. Having a conversation with someone, wether I think he's wrong or not, is not reaching out for validation. But the negativity to which you appear to cling is the kind that says "he did one bad thing and I don't know why, but instead of trying to find out why, I'll cast him into hell". That, sir, is a powerful hate that I cannot even fathom. I understand it. But I don't ever want to know it.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Afterlife I'm not trying to make myself look smarter than anyone. In fact, you're the only person here, so far, to think the guy wasn't nuts. The problem with your entire argument, is that there IS evidence that he lost his mind. That evidence, as has been cited a few times in this thread, is the entire situation. None of it fits into the rest of his life.

Actually I'm not saying he didn't lose his mind. I've already stated I hope that was the case but it isn't a fact. You thinking insane people are the only people who can commit murder and I'd very much disagree. And where is the evidence that Chris Benoit lost his mind? There isn't any. If there is, post again with said evidence or otherwise stop harping on about it. And it's fucking bullshit that none of it fits into his life. It's a fact he had restraining orders against him by his wife. It's a fact he had brain damage but the comparisons to 80 year old men with alzheimer's but it's also a fact that he showed ZERO physical evidence that backed this arguement. He very much functioned like a normal 40 year old man. And 80 year old men with alzheimers don't go around killing people either.

Again, like I've already said (and how many times do I need to go back to this?), I really hope Benoit was the man everyone said he was before this went down and he really just had a mental breakdown and lost it. This is all hope though because it can NEVER be proven. The only thing that is proven is that he is a murderer and if you wanna worship a murderer or make excuses for him without factual information and scientific results to back it then that's up to you. I choose not to. I choose to remember him as arguably the best wrestler ever who should have been remembered for that and instead is remembered for being a piece of shit murderer.

[Afterlife]

Originally Posted by Rob Actually I'm not saying he didn't lose his mind. I've already stated I hope that was the case but it isn't a fact. You thinking insane people are the only people who can commit murder and I'd very much disagree. And where is the evidence that Chris Benoit lost his mind? There isn't any. If there is, post again with said evidence or otherwise stop harping on about it. And it's fucking bullshit that none of it fits into his life. It's a fact he had restraining orders against him by his wife. It's a fact he had brain damage but the comparisons to 80 year old men with alzheimer's but it's also a fact that he showed ZERO physical evidence that backed this arguement. He very much functioned like a normal 40 year old man. And 80 year old men with alzheimers don't go around killing people either. Again, like I've already said (and how many times do I need to go back to this?), I really hope Benoit was the man everyone said he was before this went down and he really just had a mental breakdown and lost it. This is all hope though because it can NEVER be proven. The only thing that is proven is that he is a murderer and if you wanna worship a murderer or make excuses for him without factual information and scientific results to back it then that's up to you. I choose not to. I choose to remember him as arguably the best wrestler ever who should have been remembered for that and instead is remembered for being a piece of shit murderer.

1. I'm pretty sure you just contradicted yourself. Saying "I hope he was crazy" isn't the same as "I think he was crazy", the latter being something you've yet to admit. Also, the claim that sane people don't kill is nowhere near similar to anything I've said.

2. He smacked her around and she stayed. Screw her. End of validity of argument.

3. In the same way I know he was nuts, I know you are not a brain surgeon.

4. Your hostility is showing. Nobody has said anything about worship. You're putting words in the mouths of your opponents, and making yourself look bad in doing so. You don't need carbon dating to show that he flipped his lid, sport. Going crazy and killing your family is not sane behavior. Why I keep telling you, oddly enough, is "insane" in and of itself, what with doing the same thing over and over and hoping for a new result.

You may be a politician of sorts in "real life", but twisting your words, as well as the words of others, isn't going to help your agenda here. Just as a head;'s up.

[Good Ol JG]

because i'm a dork, i'm gonna use a nice comic book example to sum up how i feel about this. anyone ever read the killing joke by alan moore? the point of the book is simple, all it takes is one bad day to turn an ordinary man crazy, and i believe that. maybe it was drugs, maybe it was head trauma, maybe he had a mental illness on top of that and nobody knew about it. either way, something somewhere, somehow, snapped the guy and nobody knows what. now, rob has every right to judge benoit however he sees fit, that's fine. i don't personally like to judge people, but to each his own. no, there is no hardcore evidence that benoit was insane, it is speculation. if he would've stood trial and not killed himself, maybe evidence would've been to the contrary, maybe not. i believe, and i reserve the right to believe, that he didn't just kill his family for shits and giggles. not when he seemingly loved his family and talked warmly about them in several interviews. call me naive, i don't care, but i refuse to believe the dude was a walking psychopath who was just salivating at the chance to kill his family. and to me, there's plenty of evidence to show he was crazy. without the killings themselves, we have the cryptic text messages, cause any sane man texts friends and gives them their physical address over and over, the bibles, which is fuckin crazy on several levels, having a dead body in his home with his son there and swimming with his son after he killedher and before he killed him, that's pretty fuckin nuts, and talking to the neighbor the way he did, all this to me says the man was off his fuckin rocker when he did what he did. other people may see it otherwise, that's fine, it's an opinion, but i can't see the situation as anything but that the man went crazy somehow.

[Xero]

I'm sorry, but do you have a problem with your enter and/or return key? Or are you just morally opposed to formatting paragraphs?

[Good Ol JG]

yeah, paragraphs killed jesus.

[Afterlife]

Much in the style of Capital Letters.

[Good Ol JG]

Originally Posted by Afterlife Much in the style of Capital Letters.

nah, using capital letters means the terrorists have won.

[Xero]

God made paragraphs for a reason. It's part of his master plan.

Could you imagine reading the bible without a single break in the text?

[Afterlife]

Terrorists, Christians; it's all the same thing.

[Good Ol JG]

can't argue with that.

[Destor]

To me Benoit will always be one of the greatest wrestlers of all time.

I've said this a hundred times but if a mail man goes berserk a shoots a hundred people it doesn't mean he was a bad mail man.

What he did is inexcusable, but he was still GREAT at his job.

[Kane Knight]

So Rob....You witnessed the murder?

[Kane Knight]

By the way, who's making a defense of Benoit without scientific information? They did a fucking biopsy of his brain, FFS.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight By the way, who's making a defense of Benoit without scientific information? They did a fucking biopsy of his brain, FFS.

The police have said there was no other possibility other than Chris Benoit doing both murders.

The biospy of the brain only proved he has brain damage. That doesn't mean he snapped in one weekend. It doesn't say how long the brain damage was present. Nobody had witnessed him doing anything unusual that would give anyone the idea something was mentally wrong with him. He did plenty of things that would give people the impression he was mentally sound that weekend including playing with his kid, rearranging plane tickets, calling work to explain his absence and driving to the doctors miles away.

Nobody can say for sure that brain damage caused him do it for sure. That's my point.

What is for sure is that he killed two people. See my point?

Afterlife - I'm done even reading your posts. Believe what you wanna believe dude.

[Afterlife]

Originally Posted by Rob The police have said there was no other possibility other than Chris Benoit doing both murders. The biospy of the brain only proved he has brain damage. That doesn't mean he snapped in one weekend. It doesn't say how long the brain damage was present. Nobody had witnessed him doing anything unusual that would give anyone the idea something was mentally wrong with him. He did plenty of things that would give people the impression he was mentally sound that weekend including playing with his kid, rearranging plane tickets, calling work to explain his absence and driving to the doctors miles away. Nobody can say for sure that brain damage caused him do it for sure. That's my point. What is for sure is that he killed two people. See my point? Afterlife - I'm done even reading your posts. Believe what you wanna believe dude.

The only point I see you make is that everybody is wrong because nobody is right, and that's pretty damn weak, given the fact that it misses the REAL point altogether.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Rob The police have said there was no other possibility other than Chris Benoit doing both murders.

They came to that conclusion based on evidence that is reasonable, but not definitive. Don't pretend otherwise, because it's a lie. Doctors don't speak to absolute certainty in such cases, but the doctors who did speak on the matter were pretty clear on the matter. Basically, it's still "This is black and white based on evidence I choose to believe conclusively, but this isn't based on evidence I choose to dismiss as speculation." I mean, I honestly can't tell you what to believe. People think the use of the term "Theory" of Evolution means Evolution cannot be proven and has not been proven, and that's bullshit, too. It's just that the Police use different terminology than doctors, just like Christians use different terminology than reasonable people.

[Dave Youell]

Rob Vs KK,

Man this is going to be good!

[Afterlife]

Since you're such a fan of analogies, I'll use one to point out why your argument is so ignorant.

You say that aside from witness reports from people that spoke to him during the weekend, his bizarre communications, the severe paranoia and the only two murders in his 40 years happening at one breaking point, there is no way to prove he was a loon at the time. That's fine. We don't know he was nuts because we didn't see it. Great.

On a similar note, even though, thru mathematical theories and astrophysics and the like they can prove that the side of the moon that never faces the Earth is dark, we don't really KNOW it's dark. People might tell us that -- people who know what they're talking about! But we've never seen it, so you and I? We'll just never know.

That's a great theory, ain't it? But it's bullshit. Maybe you don't WANT to know what the rest of the population knows. Maybe you're more comfortable thinking there's a brightly lit metropolis on the far side of the moon, powered by the energy from that radioactive green cheese. But there isn't. And maybe it's easier for you to imagine that Chris just decided to murder his closest fellow humans because he needed an excuse to call off work. But he didn't. And sometimes in life you have to step out of your comfort zone and accept reality. And the fact that it's unpleasant, or cruel or just really, really dark doesn't change what everybody knows, wether they've seen it or not.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Afterlife Since you're such a fan of analogies, I'll use one to point out why your argument is so ignorant. You say that aside from witness reports from people that spoke to him during the weekend, his bizarre communications, the severe paranoia and the only two murders in his 40 years happening at one breaking point, there is no way to prove he was a loon at the time. That's fine. We don't know he was nuts because we didn't see it. Great. On a similar note, even though, thru mathematical theories and astrophysics and the like they can prove that the side of the move that never faces the Earth is dark, we don't really KNOW it's dark. People might tell us that -- people who know what they're talking about! But we've never seen it, so you and I? We'll just never know. That's a great theory, ain't it? But it's bullshit. Maybe you don't WANT to know what the rest of the population knows. Maybe you're more comfortable thinking there's a brightly lit metropolis on the far side of the moon, powered by the energy from that radioactive green cheese. But there isn't. And maybe it's easier for you to imagine that Chris just decided to murder his closest fellow humans because he needed an excuse to call off work. But he didn't. And sometimes in life you have to step out of your comfort zone and accept reality. And the fact that it's unpleasant, or cruel or just really, really dark doesn't change what everybody knows, wether they've seen it or not.

LOL

[Kane Knight]

Not to mention, unless someone here witnessed the murders and has been holding out, is a psychic, or has access to police information we do not, we "know" Benoit killed his wife and kid in the same way we "know" he was mentally ill. To paint one as black and white and paint the other with some sort of inverse Occam's Razor is a bit ridiculous, since anyone could offer up the notion that we will never know for 100% sure what happened in that household. In fact, some people already have tried to put forth conspiracy theories, which do the same sort of thing.

We don't know exactly what happened, but we do have reasonable physical evidence to assume Benoit was the killer. While there may be bits and pieces that don't quite add up which can be thrown in out of context, and there's the uncertainty principle that can be played, there is no rational reason to assume Benoit wasn't the killer.

There also is no rational reason to look at what was reported which testifies to his mental state and say "well, we don't know he wasn't in his right mind," either. You can "choose not to" recognise the facts, but the evidence in question seems to be solid enough on multiple levels to suggest that Benoit was off his fucking rocker, just as the evidence suggests he's a murderer. Or killer, in any event.

[St. Jimmy]

Chavo did it. Beniot just took the fall. Like that whole thing Eddie use to do with a chair.

[Kane Knight]

Hey esse! Remember when I said I got some weird text messages from Chris?

I LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIED!

[TerranRich]

For the record, Nancy's sent txt messages seem to indicate that Chris was ready to go off his rocker at any moment. This, to me, just adds to the evidence that he had lost his mind and snapped when committing the murders.

It just makes the most sense, because according to those who knew him (not myself, acting as though I knew him personally), this was completely out of character for him. What else is there to believe, other than that he had snapped?

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by TerranRich For the record, Nancy's sent txt messages seem to indicate that Chris was ready to go off his rocker at any moment. This, to me, just adds to the evidence that he had lost his mind and snapped when committing the murders. It just makes the most sense, because according to those who knew him (not myself, acting as though I knew him personally), this was completely out of character for him. What else is there to believe, other than that he had snapped?

Well, to be fair, how many people are going to say "He was a bad man. I can believe he did that. I'm sure he's down there looking up at us..."

[Jeritron]

What he did as a wrestler still stands I suppose. I mean, it's not like his matches suddenly aren't 5 stars anymore. However, he is far from a legend. His reprehensible actions overshadow everything he's done and brought down a lot of damage to the business, let alone his family and peers. Ask the families and friends affected if they care about whether or not his match at ___ will be remembered. It hardly matters.

To be a legend in the business, you don't simply have a body of work but a legacy and respect. Benoit's legacy no matter what will always be that he killed his family and himself in one of the biggest and darkest scandals in the industry's history. Not just to the general population, but to fans and peers, whether they try to justify his status or not. You can't deny that that heavy black cloud hangs over him. To deny that is to be in denial.
So there goes his legacy. As for his respect, come on. There's little to none of that based on his actions, how can you possibly respect that man. And his contributions to the business are far outweighed by his evil actions and the firestorm he brought down.

Personally, as a former Benoit fan, I detest the man. For what he did in real life. This is real life, and just because he entertained me in a fantasy world at one time, doesn't mean he holds my respect and admiration. I can step out of entertainment and have face reality. I can't cheer him, enjoy him or what not. I can tolerate his matches if he happens to be in them at this point, but I don't see past it and to be honest it puts a huge damper on them.

I think having some sense of moral conviction for what happened in real life is far more important. And I see a lot of excuses and convenient spin/denial on what happened in real life made by fans in order to preserve in their mind some fictional character. They dillude themselves for a handful of matches they don't want to part with, instead of realizing the situation at face value and to me it's really quite pathetic because all of it means dirt compared to the raw reality of a man that choked his own son to death.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

[Kane Knight]

The moral of this story: Don't dillude yourself.

[Afterlife]

More than enough.

[Kane Knight]

Considering we're talking within the context of people who knew him?

[Afterlife]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight Considering we're talking within the context of people who knew him?

Oh. In that case, I retract my last statement.

[Crossrine]

Originally Posted by taker707 I know I know not another Beniot thread Just thought this was interesting . I went to the HoF and Wrestlemania 24 and when Flair brought up Beniot the Place erupted in applause also when Triple H used the Crossface at Mania again the place erupted . Thoughts? Is this a sign that Beniot will be remembered for his wrestling abilitys and not for the Horrific acts that he caused ?

Wait wait wait wait.. When did Flair mention Benoit?

[TerranRich]

I'm just sayin', wrestling fans act like they know more than the people who knew him.