Raven sues WWE; Possible major problem for WWE

[BigDaddyCool]

Yes it does. I mostly do payroll, payroll taxes, and income tax. I know probably more about the subject than anyone else on the board.

If WWE is found to have misrepresent employee as independent contractors, then WWE will have to pay all of the FICA and Medicare that the wrestlers should have had with held from their pay checks along with the employer's matching portion. The wrestlers will then be able to refile all their tax returns from those years, possibly getting a refund. If the wrestlers haven't already paid or filed their own personal taxes, that is a completely seprate matter. The IRS will get to them on an individual basis if the wrestler come under an audit.

Audit are a little unpredictable, and not everyone gets audited that should, and sometimes people that shouldn't get audited do. So there is no telling if any wrestler is going to be audited. Then depending on how good of records they kept, they might not own any more. It is entirely possible they may have paid too much already and be owed a refund.

[BigDaddyCool]

Originally Posted by ozzman6669 I speak french so I do the best I can to do good sentence!!! What I tried to say is: Independant contractor and employee don't pay the same amount of tax. So if WWE is found guilty, will wrestlers gonna receive money or will they have to pay???

Actaully, being a contractor or an employee doesn't detrime the amount of tax an indiviual would owe. Their filing statues, the amount of dependents, the amount of taxes they have already paid through the year, and whatever credits and deductions they can take detrimines that.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Rob You seriously think he wants to go back there?

For that matter, do you think this would really stop them from rehiring them?

Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool Also, as I just told Rob in an IM, you can have a no complete clause in a contract for an independent contractor while they work of an entity.

Worth paying attention to.

[Fox]

I dunno. On one hand it would be cool to see Vince McMahon's ego deflated. On the other hand, no more WWE.

[PapaGeorgio]

Originally Posted by TL Since they were giving out a million dollars every week without trouble, i don't see how this could harm them.

Let me explain how this is a problem. First off Vince McMahon really did give away his own money. He wanted to give away the companies money but it was taking forever to get approval. Why? Stockholders.

Stockholders are what the company is all about. Stockholders own the company. They want the company to make as much money as possible. If WWE takes a hit with a settlement, it hurts the Stockholders which hurts WWE. Understand how publicly traded companies work.

[thedamndest]

When has the WWE ever put Raven over? They'll put Crash Holly in the courtroom and this thing will be over before you know it.

[Fox]

RIP Crash

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by U-Warrior Being that it's ya know, BDC's profession, I'm just gonna go ahead and agree with him. You all may know quite a bit about this subject, but no one is going to know it as intamitely as him. Dunno why anyone is argueing with him tbh.

Because an accountant isn't a qualified lawyer?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Fox I dunno. On one hand it would be cool to see Vince McMahon's ego deflated. On the other hand, no more WWE.

So it's win-win?

I'm curious to see what the wrestlers think of what Raven is doing? It sounds like Raven has their best interest at heart morally, and that they could receive a bit of money from this. But on the other hand, if Raven somehow gets this off the ground, then it could do a lot of damage to their livelihood.

[BigDaddyCool]

Originally Posted by Noid Because an accountant isn't a qualified lawyer?

Yeah...to bad we aren't talking law and talking rules and regulations made by the IRS, therefore an accountant would be more qualified to talk in this area than a lawyer, douche bag.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Noid Because an accountant isn't a qualified lawyer?

But a pro wrestler apparently is.

[Xero]

BUT RAVEN IS AWESOME AND THE SMARTEST PERSON ON EARTH!!!!!

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 BUT RAVEN IS AWESOME AND THE SMARTEST PERSON ON EARTH!!!!!

That seems to be the reasoning behind it. Maybe scaled up a point or two to drive home the ridiculousness....

[BigDaddyCool]

Just fyi, Raven will not be able to collect a refund from the IRS for this at all. You have 3 years to file and claim a refund. He last worked for WWE in 2003, it is 2008 now. The best he can hope for is for WWE to pay him the taxes they should have withheld. I doubt this is going anywhere. It should also be noted, why is he just now bringing this to court. I wouldn't be suprised if a judge looks at this and throws it out as a frivolous law suit considering the time frame.

[BigDaddyCool]

I would expect TNA to also treat the wrestlers as independent contractors, and if this is true, it would make much more sence for Raven to sue them for the same reasons. That would elminate any time frame issues. And before you get into this who "TNA let the wrestlers pick up other dates" crap. It doesn't matter, they still told the wrestlers where to be, when to be there, how to do what they do, provided tools, and so forth with are just as important in independent contractor v employee debate.

But TNA doesn't have the money WWE does, which is why he is going after WWE.

[Mooияakeя™]

Originally Posted by Noid I'd like to see Raven open his own wrestling promotion, to be honest.

Now that Levy is no longer with TNA, he has decided to open up his own professional wrestling school in Georgia, which will work in conjunction with the promotion, Great Championship Wrestling. He has enlisted the help of Johnny Swinger to assist in training the students. The school is tentatively scheduled to open in the spring of 2008 and he is currently taking resumes for potential students

Look it's not really anywhere near, but a little bit closer... in a way.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool Just fyi, Raven will not be able to collect a refund from the IRS for this at all. You have 3 years to file and claim a refund. He last worked for WWE in 2003, it is 2008 now. The best he can hope for is for WWE to pay him the taxes they should have withheld. I doubt this is going anywhere. It should also be noted, why is he just now bringing this to court. I wouldn't be suprised if a judge looks at this and throws it out as a frivolous law suit considering the time frame.

One has to wonder why he waited so long, anyway.

For that matter, one has to wonder why he would have signed all those various contracts and made all those agreements.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Mooияakeя™ Now that Levy is no longer with TNA, he has decided to open up his own professional wrestling school in Georgia, which will work in conjunction with the promotion, Great Championship Wrestling. He has enlisted the help of Johnny Swinger to assist in training the students. The school is tentatively scheduled to open in the spring of 2008 and he is currently taking resumes for potential students Look it's not really anywhere near, but a little bit closer... in a way.

OHWCWR?

[The MAC]

WWE will tie this up in court for light years.

[Fox]

The Bisch has weighed in a little bit on the matter at hand:

Originally Posted by ericbischoff.com BLOG 8/11/2008 "Losen Up" (7 Comments - Read Comments) How much control is too much? That is a question that executives within, and shareholders of WWE, my soon be thinking about as they try to get to sleep at night. Before I go too far into my perspective on the recent revelation that a number of former WWE contracted performers have filed suit challenging their previous status as independent contractors, allow me to share my thoughts regarding litigation in general: I despise it. As I have stated in a previous blog (“Never Say Never”), Shakespeare may have been on to something when he suggested in Henry VI that we “kill all the lawyers”. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think all lawyers are scumbags, and I don’t believe that all lawsuits are frivolous and without merit. But unfortunately all too many lawsuits and the tactics of the lawyers/’firms and clients involved, create collateral damage to righteous claims. This damage can range from negative public opinion (and tainted jury pools), to low-rent law firms that troll for potential class action litigants on late night local cable television like hookers on a street corner, to a clogged up judicial system that forces legitimate claims to be dragged into protracted legal battles and are determined not by case law or a jury, but by a plaintiffs or a defendants financial ability to run a legal marathon. Case in point: The recent lawsuit challenging WWE's independent contractor vs employee designation. This is a complex issue and it is going to be a very interesting situation to watch un-fold as it may have profound impact on WWE and TNA. Back in 1998, when the full impact of the Turner/Time Warner merger began to manifest itself as a power grabbing corporate orgy of gamesmanship, one of the issues raised by some executives that tried previously (and unsuccessfully thanks to Ted’s vision and the performance of WCW at the time) to divest the Turner Broadcasting portfolio of the WCW division, was the concern over the independent contractor/employee status of WCW’s talent. The argument as I remember hearing it (I wasn’t invited to the meetings) was that the exposure to Turner/Time Warner due to a potential adverse IRS determination regarding this issue could have resulted in fines, increased cost of business going forward, and a hit to TWX stock as a result. Fast-forward 10 years later. WWE is now a publicly traded company. It is responsible to its shareholders, and therefore must react to market conditions and influences much differently than when it was a privately held company. While the Chairman can stack the deck with a Board of Directors and executive management team that looks more like a friends and family reunion than anything else, should the IRS determine that WWE’s contracted talent are employees and not independent contractors, there is the potential for significant fines, expenses and cost of doing business on a go-forward basis that could have a serious negative impact on WWE stock. How bad you ask? I am not an attorney or an employment tax expert, but I did get my ass kicked once by the IRS back in the late 80’s/early 90’s and I do know that they lack anything that resembles a sense of humor. When the IRS determines that one didn’t pay what one should have paid in taxes, they tend to grab a calculator that has it’s own unique decimal system, a calendar, and a team of lawyers looking for press and attention. Example? If, as a result of this recent lawsuit, the IRS determines that WWE’s contract talent are employees and NOT independent contractors, that means that in addition to many other expenses relating to the cost of accounting changes, WWE will be required to contribute approximately 7.5% of the salaries paid to its newly minted talent/employees to OASDI (Old Age and Survivors Disability Insurance). My guess is that this increased cost of doing business going forward could be easily absorbed. But what if, the IRS grabs their calculators, calendars, and teams of lawyers looking for press and attention and decides to go back 3, 5, 10 years or whatever the statute of limitations is and calculates monies due plus penalties and interest on the fees paid to former employees? Scary. I attempt to write my blogs in such a way that the end hangs on the beginning so I will close with these thoughts: On one hand, every talent that performed with WWE knew exactly what they were getting into when they signed on. Its not as if there was some master plan that was designed to take advantage of them. My guess is that they are in a desperate financial situation and found some equally desperate lawyer to take a run at this issue in the hopes of collecting a payday. But on the other, Vince McMahon’s mandate for absolute control of everything from, finishes, the words that he puts in the mouths of his announcers and performers, to dress codes for talent flying to and from an event may come back to haunt him. I predict that any number of previously contracted talent and scum swilling lawyers will attempt to jump on the bandwagon in the hopes of augmenting their incomes in some way either real or imagined. And if there is enough free publicity involved, look for Jesse Ventura to lead the charge! For the sake of discussion, and as a frame of reference, here is an example of a list of guidelines that the IRS uses to attempt to determine employee/independent contractor status: 1. Instructions Employees comply with instructions about when, where, and how work is to be performed. Contractors set their own hours and do the job in their own way. 2. Training Employees are trained to perform services in a particular way. They are required to take correspondence courses and attend meetings. Other methods also indicate that the employer wants the services performed in a particular way. Contractors use their own methods and receive no training from the purchaser of their services . 3. Integration Services of an employee are merged into the business. Success and continuation of the business depends upon these services. The employer coordinates work with that of others. The success and continuation of the business aren’t dependent on services provided by a contractor. 4. Services Rendered Personally Services must be rendered personally. An employee does not engage other people to do the work. Contractors are able to assign their own workers to do the job. 5. Hiring, Supervising, Paying An employee hires, supervises and pays workers at the direction of the employer (i.e.: acts as foreman or representative of the employer). Contractors hire, supervise and pay the other workers as the result of a contract. A contractor agrees to provide materials and labor and is responsible for the results. 6. Continuing Relationship An employee continues to work for the same person year after year. Contractors are hired to do one job. There is no continuous relationship . 7. Set Hours of Work The employer sets an employee’s hours and days. Contractors are masters of their own time. 8. Full Time Required An employee normally works full time for an employer. Contractors are free to work when and for whom they choose. 9. Doing Work on Employer’s Premises Employees work on the premises of an employer; or on a route, or at a site, designated by the employer. Contractors work off an employer’s premises and use their own offices, desks, and telephones. 10. Order or Sequence Set An employee performs services in the order or sequence set by the employer. Salespersons report to the office at specified times, follow-up on leads, and perform certain tasks at certain times. Services are performed at a contractor’s own pace. Salespersons work their own schedules and usually have their own offices. 11. Oral or Written Reports Employees are required to submit regular oral or written reports to the employer. Contractors submit no reports. 12. Payment by Hour, Week, Month Employees are paid by the employer in regular amounts at stated intervals. A contractor is paid by the job on a straight commission. 13. Payment of Business and/or Travel Expenses The employer pays employees’ business and/or travel expenses. Contractors take care of their own expenses and are accountable only to themselves for expenses. 14. Furnishing of Tools, Materials An employer furnishes tools, materials, etc. Contractors furnish their own tools, etc. 15. Significant Investment An employee has no significant investment in the facilities used to perform services. A contractor has a real, essential and significant investment. 16. Realization of Profit or Loss An employee cannot realize a profit or loss by making good or bad decisions. Contractors can realize a profit or suffer a loss as a result of their services or decisions. 17. Working for More than One Firm at a Time An employee usually works for one employer at a time. An independent contractor works for a number of persons or firms at the same time. 18. Making Services Available to the General Public An employee does not make services available to the general public. Contractors have their own offices and assistants. The hold businesses licenses are listed in business directories, maintain business telephones, and otherwise generally make their services available to the public. 19. Right to Fire An employee can be discharged at any time. Contractors cannot be fired so long as product results meet contract specifications. 20. Right to Quit Employees can quit their jobs at any time without incurring liability. Contractors agree to complete a specific job and are responsible for satisfactory completion; or they are legally obligated to make good for any failure. Above Summary is reprinted from IRS Tax Facts, January 1992 As you can see, its not a cut and dry issue on all points, and it is possible that this list has been amended since published. Either way, there are more than enough fine lines to be interpreted and argued that I would be surprised if this does not become a major issue. 7 Comments - Read Comments

[Kane Knight]

LOL

[BigDaddyCool]

It should be noted since 1992, those rules are still looser and the IRS has been know to throw the rules out all together.

[Rob]

Let me just break down Bischoff's points Employee vs. Contractor:



1. Instructions

Employees comply with instructions about when, where, and how work is to be performed.
Contractors set their own hours and do the job in their own way.
WWE tells talent where to be, how to work, etc. Mark one in the Employee column.

2. Training

Employees are trained to perform services in a particular way. They are required to take correspondence courses and attend meetings. Other methods also indicate that the employer wants the services performed in a particular way.
Contractors use their own methods and receive no training from the purchaser of their services.
Probably even here. WWE provides meetings when they want but provide no real training other than developmental.

3. Integration

Services of an employee are merged into the business. Success and continuation of the business depends upon these services. The employer coordinates work with that of others.
The success and continuation of the business aren’t dependent on services provided by a contractor.
Definitely employee here. 2-0-1 so far

4. Services Rendered Personally
Services must be rendered personally. An employee does not engage other people to do the work.
Contractors are able to assign their own workers to do the job.
Doesn't apply

5. Hiring, Supervising, Paying
An employee hires, supervises and pays workers at the direction of the employer (i.e.: acts as foreman or representative of the employer).
Contractors hire, supervise and pay the other workers as the result of a contract. A contractor agrees to provide materials and labor and is responsible for the results.
Doesn't apply

6. Continuing Relationship
An employee continues to work for the same person year after year.
Contractors are hired to do one job. There is no continuous relationship.
Wrestlers aren't hired on a match by match basis so employees again

7. Set Hours of Work
The employer sets an employee’s hours and days.
Contractors are masters of their own time.
WWE sets everything. Employees again. 4-0-1 now

8. Full Time Required
An employee normally works full time for an employer.
Contractors are free to work when and for whom they choose.
Again employee 5-0-1

9. Doing Work on Employer’s Premises
Employees work on the premises of an employer; or on a route, or at a site, designated by the employer.
Contractors work off an employer’s premises and use their own offices, desks, and telephones.
6-0-1 now

10. Order or Sequence Set
An employee performs services in the order or sequence set by the employer. Salespersons report to the office at specified times, follow-up on leads, and perform certain tasks at certain times.

Services are performed at a contractor’s own pace. Salespersons work their own schedules and usually have their own offices.
Wrestlers perform to WWE demands. 7-0-1

11. Oral or Written Reports
Employees are required to submit regular oral or written reports to the employer.
Contractors submit no reports.
Not required in the job. 7-1-1

12. Payment by Hour, Week, Month
Employees are paid by the employer in regular amounts at stated intervals.
A contractor is paid by the job on a straight commission.
8-1-1. Wrestlers are paid at intervals.


13. Payment of Business and/or Travel Expenses
The employer pays employees’ business and/or travel expenses.
Contractors take care of their own expenses and are accountable only to themselves for expenses.
Wrestlers generally take care of most expenses but WWE does pick up the tab for certain talent or on tours. I'd call this one even 8-1-2

14. Furnishing of Tools, Materials
An employer furnishes tools, materials, etc.
Contractors furnish their own tools, etc.
N/A

15. Significant Investment
An employee has no significant investment in the facilities used to perform services.
A contractor has a real, essential and significant investment.
WWE provides ring and stage. 9-1-2

16. Realization of Profit or Loss
An employee cannot realize a profit or loss by making good or bad decisions.
Contractors can realize a profit or suffer a loss as a result of their services or decisions.
Wrestlers don't make their own decisions 10-1-2


17. Working for More than One Firm at a Time
An employee usually works for one employer at a time.
An independent contractor works for a number of persons or firms at the same time.
WWE has exclusive rights. I also pointed this out before but BDC shot it down. 11-1-2

18. Making Services Available to the General Public
An employee does not make services available to the general public.
Contractors have their own offices and assistants. The hold businesses licenses are listed in business directories, maintain business telephones, and otherwise generally make their services available to the public.
N/A

19. Right to Fire
An employee can be discharged at any time.
Contractors cannot be fired so long as product results meet contract specifications.
WWE regularly releases talent at random times. 12-1-2

20. Right to Quit
Employees can quit their jobs at any time without incurring liability.
Contractors agree to complete a specific job and are responsible for satisfactory completion; or they are legally obligated to make good for any failure.
Hard to call this one. Wrestlers can quit at anytime but generally have no complete clauses and are threatened with legal action. Hard to call so it's called even.

With that in mind, 12 out of 20 points are clear cut employee defined.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Rob Let me just break down Bischoff's points Employee vs. Contractor: 1. Instructions Employees comply with instructions about when, where, and how work is to be performed. Contractors set their own hours and do the job in their own way. WWE tells talent where to be, how to work, etc. Mark one in the Employee column. 2. Training Employees are trained to perform services in a particular way. They are required to take correspondence courses and attend meetings. Other methods also indicate that the employer wants the services performed in a particular way. Contractors use their own methods and receive no training from the purchaser of their services. Probably even here. WWE provides meetings when they want but provide no real training other than developmental. 3. Integration Services of an employee are merged into the business. Success and continuation of the business depends upon these services. The employer coordinates work with that of others. The success and continuation of the business aren’t dependent on services provided by a contractor. Definitely employee here. 2-0-1 so far 4. Services Rendered Personally Services must be rendered personally. An employee does not engage other people to do the work. Contractors are able to assign their own workers to do the job. Doesn't apply 5. Hiring, Supervising, Paying An employee hires, supervises and pays workers at the direction of the employer (i.e.: acts as foreman or representative of the employer). Contractors hire, supervise and pay the other workers as the result of a contract. A contractor agrees to provide materials and labor and is responsible for the results. Doesn't apply 6. Continuing Relationship An employee continues to work for the same person year after year. Contractors are hired to do one job. There is no continuous relationship. Wrestlers aren't hired on a match by match basis so employees again 7. Set Hours of Work The employer sets an employee’s hours and days. Contractors are masters of their own time. WWE sets everything. Employees again. 4-0-1 now 8. Full Time Required An employee normally works full time for an employer. Contractors are free to work when and for whom they choose. Again employee 5-0-1 9. Doing Work on Employer’s Premises Employees work on the premises of an employer; or on a route, or at a site, designated by the employer. Contractors work off an employer’s premises and use their own offices, desks, and telephones. 6-0-1 now 10. Order or Sequence Set An employee performs services in the order or sequence set by the employer. Salespersons report to the office at specified times, follow-up on leads, and perform certain tasks at certain times. Services are performed at a contractor’s own pace. Salespersons work their own schedules and usually have their own offices. Wrestlers perform to WWE demands. 7-0-1 11. Oral or Written Reports Employees are required to submit regular oral or written reports to the employer. Contractors submit no reports. Not required in the job. 7-1-1 12. Payment by Hour, Week, Month Employees are paid by the employer in regular amounts at stated intervals. A contractor is paid by the job on a straight commission. 8-1-1. Wrestlers are paid at intervals. 13. Payment of Business and/or Travel Expenses The employer pays employees’ business and/or travel expenses. Contractors take care of their own expenses and are accountable only to themselves for expenses. Wrestlers generally take care of most expenses but WWE does pick up the tab for certain talent or on tours. I'd call this one even 8-1-2 14. Furnishing of Tools, Materials An employer furnishes tools, materials, etc. Contractors furnish their own tools, etc. N/A 15. Significant Investment An employee has no significant investment in the facilities used to perform services. A contractor has a real, essential and significant investment. WWE provides ring and stage. 9-1-2 16. Realization of Profit or Loss An employee cannot realize a profit or loss by making good or bad decisions. Contractors can realize a profit or suffer a loss as a result of their services or decisions. Wrestlers don't make their own decisions 10-1-2 17. Working for More than One Firm at a Time An employee usually works for one employer at a time. An independent contractor works for a number of persons or firms at the same time. WWE has exclusive rights. I also pointed this out before but BDC shot it down. 11-1-2 18. Making Services Available to the General Public An employee does not make services available to the general public. Contractors have their own offices and assistants. The hold businesses licenses are listed in business directories, maintain business telephones, and otherwise generally make their services available to the public. N/A 19. Right to Fire An employee can be discharged at any time. Contractors cannot be fired so long as product results meet contract specifications. WWE regularly releases talent at random times. 12-1-2 20. Right to Quit Employees can quit their jobs at any time without incurring liability. Contractors agree to complete a specific job and are responsible for satisfactory completion; or they are legally obligated to make good for any failure. Hard to call this one. Wrestlers can quit at anytime but generally have no complete clauses and are threatened with legal action. Hard to call so it's called even. With that in mind, 12 out of 20 points are clear cut employee defined.

Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool It should be noted since 1992, those rules are still looser and the IRS has been know to throw the rules out all together.

[Kane Knight]

I mean, I found an (I think) 2005 set of guidelines when I was looking for it. A lot of what it said is similar, but the actual guidelines are less defined. Can't believe Bisch couldn't be arsed to spend thirty seconds on Google before talking about it.

Also, Rob, the guidelines aren't a "Best out of 20" test.

[BigDaddyCool]

Also, I've already said all of this before.

Also 4. does apply. The wrestler do provide their services personally. When you see Raven wrestle, you actaully see Raven wrestle, not someone Raven hired, dork.

[Kane Knight]

Hey, if Raven's so smart, why is he working in wrestling, anyway? [/irony]

[TerranRich]

Originally Posted by The MAC WWE will tie this up in court for light years.

A light year is a unit of distance.

That's like saying "Man, it's been kilometers since I've seen you guys! It's like we haven't spoken in gallons!"

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by TerranRich A light year is a unit of distance. That's like saying "Man, it's been kilometers since I've seen you guys! It's like we haven't spoken in gallons!"

"This is the ship that did the Kessel Run in under twelve Parsecs!"

[BigDaddyCool]

20,000 LEAGUES UNDER THE SEA?

[Afterlife]

Originally Posted by TerranRich A light year is a unit of distance. That's like saying "Man, it's been kilometers since I've seen you guys! It's like we haven't spoken in gallons!"

May I sig this, please?

[TerranRich]

Sure.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool 20,000 LEAGUES UNDER THE SEA?

That one's just the fault of people who didn't get that he was talking the distance they traveled, not the depth.

Errr...I mean, LOL.

[Afterlife]

I probably won't due to laziness, but thanks!

[TerranRich]

SIG IT NOW, BITCH.