Combos: A Historic Evaluation

[.44 Magdalene]

Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD Soul Calibur, as a series, was NEVER as combo heavy as it is now. I can barely take you serious after reading that sort of comment. NEVER EVER. I can't even begin to argue that without a gay use of CAPS. Where did you get that from? Wow. Edge and Calibur are NOT debatable, they just did not play toward combos. They had combos, but were not combo centric.

See, you can tell when someone's an amateur at debate when they use tactics like this--instead of going after the meat of my argument, which was that SCII and onward were distinctly combo heavy, you attacked the part where I conceded original Calibur and Edge were the least combo intended. Can't take me seriously after you totally flipped my argument upside down and acted like I was saying something entirely different, right? No, Calibur and Edge weren't combo heavy. I agreed, you fucking moron. Calibur II brought in juggles, and it was a slippery slope from there--which is the main point of what I said, and you totally blew that off in favor of making up something easier to argue with. Most SC games--that is, two through four--are combo heavy. i.e., this isn't anything new.

Again, trying to act real passionate and emotionally invested against a paltry portion of the argument--not the main part of it, but the tiny snippet at the beginning that you completely misinterpted--is a fine way to debate badly. I guess it's hard to take what anyone says seriously when you can't fucking read though, right?

Ya know how many tourny matches I can pull up right now at this minute that showcases in-match combos FTW? Look up 3rd Strike + Tourny and watch the Combo Counter rise as people use it in real contest. I know the vids you're talking about with people setting up combos so they can masturbate to their dialing skills but you can't actually believe I'd cite those as supporting evidence to my argument? I would all of a sudden not know the difference? We're both game geeks (pfft, any of us in here), in this subject I know what I'm talking about.

You'll also see pokes, throws, and alot of heavy mind games in any good 3rd strike video. Oh, and parries. God damn, legendary parries. Why would I believe you'd cite any evidence to your argument when you didn't, though? The only games you've mentioned are Tekken--which is combo centric to an infamous degree--Soul Calibur, where combos get cut off at a certain point unless you suck at the game--and 3rd Strike, which is actually pretty throw-and-parry heavy at tournament levels, at least more to that degree than combo centric. I mean, what evidence are you actually citing at all? What fucking evidence are you even talking about? You're getting all pissed about people mocking your imaginary evidence? I mean, in retrospect, your entire argument is getting mad about SC not playing like you want it to, without any real leg to stand on, reasoning or logic. It's just a bunch of "WELL I DON'T REMEMBER IT BEING LIKE THAT."

You? You said Soul Calibur was combo centric. Hard to pass that road sign.

Oh lol but I didn't. I said specifically that two through four were combo centric, buuut... why read that part, when you can just make your own shit up to argue with? It's so much easier to imagine the other guy is just spouting jibberish instead of, y'know, making the point that he's making.

And Figgy's right to a degree. The thing is all those pokes and positioning are for landing some way to combo off some damage. You might think in that sense it was earned, and you are correct depending on the game. But Tekken should not have went down that route. Preset attack strings and limited juggles should have been the height of that system. Mind you, Tekken 6 will own almost everything, but I can see the juggle-marathons in Rank Matches already.

Tekken. Has been like that. Forever. That's how Tekken is. That's what Tekken's like. You're basically bitching that Mario Bros has so many fucking jumps in it, or that Zelda is getting too puzzle heavy.

Khuntry could attest that I'm perfectly capable of juggling your ass to next Thursday. With Law I could launch you almost at will (not rubbing my own e-cock, just saying). What do I do? 3... 4 hit juggle tops. I'm not interested in more hits, just the fight. I want more fighting games to aspire to this model of combat. You don't even have to de-comboize Soul Calibur or Tekken either. I don't have to play that way in those games. But they certainly reward those who do, which is my point.

Other fighting games do aspire to this model of combat, you're bitching about the maybe two game series that are specifically combo based being combo based. Again, you're bitching that Game A uses Game A mechanics instead of Game B mechanics. Waaah, all I want is for Mario Kart to rely less on racing. Play a different fucking game, then. Not alot of other people have the problem you do because they're playing the game they want to play, not pissing and moaning that the game they play isn't the game they want to play.

[.44 Magdalene]

Really, I think most of my argument could have been summed up by quoting Kalyx, and then posting

Originally Posted by .44 Magdalene But I'm sure my "has always been" is going to be taken as literal as humanly possible

[Kalyx triaD]

How long have you been playing the Tekken series? Juggles got crazy by part 4. Don't say shit like "always" and "forever" and cover your ass by predicting somebody would jump on it. Calling it won't stop me or anyone from going the only logical route, that is to say you're wrong.

And how many games are combo heavy versus my model of combat? A fucking lot.

And where's my evidence of combos dominating top level play?


Actually not so combo centric (3rd Strike), but how would it look having nothing but vids that prove my pint, right?

[.44 Magdalene]

Yeah, it's certainly "covering my ass" to point out that I'm not being literal. It's certainly not your fault for ignoring an entire section of the statement in favor of the juicy parts. Clarification? The rest of the argument? Why, the only relevant part of the argument is the one you can argue with, not the parts you can't! Pretend those aren't there! It's the only logical route, am I right? Just take out a tiny segment, throw it out of context, and congratulations! I mean, I even went so far as to tell you what my argument wasn't before you proceeded to plow on through the door.

Also, did you even fucking watch those videos, or do you just not understand what those guys are doing? Except for the Tekken vids--which were from the same tournament, if I'm not mistaken--the majority of those fights were won with fake outs, throws, and in the KoF case, tactical switchups. I mean, for a guy that can't take me seriously, you're awfully... I don't know... incapable of defending your stance.

Oh, wait. Your stance is just you pissing and crying about shit everybody else got used to years ago. Sorry, I forgot how hard it is to defend driving the wrong way down a one way street.

[.44 Magdalene]

You know what, fuck it. I'm not feeding into your desperate plea for validation from your fellow neckbeards any further, and I really should have stopped pretending this was a legitimate subject for discussion instead of some half assed attempt at gamer blogging the second I realized you posted this exact topic over multiple forums. You can neither put up a solid argument without stumbling through a mine field of primitive fallacies, nor respond without throwing up a bunch of buzzwords and name drops as if being the cool kid at your particular table somehow makes your bullshit easier to choke down. See you guys after I get done doing something that's actually halfway entertaining.

[.44 Magdalene]

For example, not Tekken.

[Kalyx triaD]

Originally Posted by .44 Magdalene Yeah, it's certainly "covering my ass" to point out that I'm not being literal. It's certainly not your fault for ignoring an entire section of the statement in favor of the juicy parts. Clarification? The rest of the argument? Why, the only relevant part of the argument is the one you can argue with, not the parts you can't! Pretend those aren't there! It's the only logical route, am I right? Just take out a tiny segment, throw it out of context, and congratulations! I mean, I even went so far as to tell you what my argument wasn't before you proceeded to plow on through the door. Also, did you even fucking watch those videos, or do you just not understand what those guys are doing? Except for the Tekken vids--which were from the same tournament, if I'm not mistaken--the majority of those fights were won with fake outs, throws, and in the KoF case, tactical switchups. I mean, for a guy that can't take me seriously, you're awfully... I don't know... incapable of defending your stance. Oh, wait. Your stance is just you pissing and crying about shit everybody else got used to years ago. Sorry, I forgot how hard it is to defend driving the wrong way down a one way street.

Oh yeah, the concept was beyond me.

Let's review for your sake:

• I don't dislike combo, I think they have become a stale constant in games that have glorified them beyond other offensive options.
• I don't want certain games to suddenly not be combo-based. Talking about how weird Marvel Vs Capcom would be without combos in retaliation, for instance (which some jackass in the other forum did).
• Let's not pretend it's something I just never came to grips with. I don't question conventions because they overcome me. Yeah fucking right.
• The mind games that take place before the fact can be done in any fighting game ever made. Eating massive damage cause you caught a launcher? Fine in certain games. But there's a lot of games where you can put down your controller and get a drink before the fight resumes after a juggle.

But it looks like you're okay with the landscape (or am I being pretentious in saying so?). But the fact remains that in most fighting games, most fights are decided by combos. Mind games and set-ups are romantic and all, but dial-a-combos save the day. Forgive me for wanting more fighting games evolve past this. And no, Tekken 6 extending the life bar doesn't count.

[G]

lol

[Kalyx triaD]

Originally Posted by .44 Magdalene For example, not Tekken.

Tekken > Virtua Fighter

Just in case anyone thinks otherwise.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD Tekken > Virtua Fighter Just in case anyone thinks otherwise.

There is no need to be so wrong that the universe implodes there, Kalyx.

[Destor]

I Virtua Fighter

[Kalyx triaD]

Originally Posted by Hasney There is no need to be so wrong that the universe implodes there, Kalyx.

They're trying to get Tekken vs Virtua Fighter going. The Tekken guys got a test-engine going for the concept. If Namco gets to develop the game, it'll be my favorite VF title ever.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

NO

AM2 develops it or no sale. Don't want tiger heads and satan-incarnates flipping around in an otherwise awesome game (VF)

[Fignuts]

Just because Virtua Fighter isn't as farfetched as tekken, doesn't mean it's so realistic that it would be ruined by a crossover featuring those types of characters.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

I didn't mean that, I just meant that I could see Namco completly bastardising the VF characters.

[Khuntry]

Virtua fighter IS NOT realistic. Ugh ....virtua fighter

[Fignuts]

Originally Posted by Hasney I didn't mean that, I just meant that I could see Namco completly bastardising the VF characters.

Well I imagine it would be a joint project, so I doubt that would happen.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Originally Posted by Khuntry Virtua fighter IS NOT realistic. Ugh ....virtua fighter

Well yeah, of course t's not realistic. Realism is not that awesome.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Originally Posted by Fignuts Well I imagine it would be a joint project, so I doubt that would happen.

I dunno, Yu Suzuki doesn't really work at Sega anymore. Sega will just sign the deal and say "money please", maybe even throw in the rights for Sonic to take some bukkake.

[Fignuts]

Even if they do that, Namco knows the money is in Tekken vs Virtua Fighter. Not Ten vs Virtua Fighter characters with tekken makeovers.

They would have nothing to gain from changing the VF characters.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

They could swerve it and make a 3D MvC2 style game, just to piss everyone off

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Thinking about Yu not being there, I do not have high hopes for VF6 either . God I wish Model 3 emulation was here, VF3TB on Dreamcast just isn't the same

[Kalyx triaD]

I think Namco's smart enough to respect VF characters but have them play better than they did. VF with limb-based attacks would be interesting, though I wouldn't mind Tekken adopting the punch-kick-block model either. Namco would be doing SEGA a favor with this one.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

Hmmm, just found some special edition VF4 disc that has all the VF4 characters/moves but in the VF1 engine. I didn't know I owned that....

[Kalyx triaD]

I tried so hard to like VF but it comes off as floaty and boring. I would give VF5 a try and even buy if the chance came around, if only to build a fighting game library. DOA4's more fun to me.

[#BROKEN Hasney]

It's always been like that though, it's weird. Everyone can agree on what is a good fighting game (not always agree on whats the best) apart from VF and Tekken which just draws polar opposites.

I know what you mean though, I prfer DOA over Tekken.

[Kalyx triaD]

VF vs Tekken needs to happen. I think the teams should mix and match to design the game. But I'd love to see Namco's crossover engine in motion. What elements stayed and what left. His comments ruined my day, I've been thinking about it for a while.

[Funky Fly]

Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD I tried so hard to like VF but it comes off as floaty and boring. I would give VF5 a try and even buy if the chance came around, if only to build a fighting game library. DOA4's more fun to me.

Yup.

[Fignuts]

BCWWF