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Old 06-02-2012, 09:49 PM   #1
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Big Show, when you really look at it, has been super-dominant, actually. No, not his entire career, but what did he do before his heel turn? He beat Cody Rhodes for the IC Title, and then lost it when Cody was sneaky and got a bit of a fluke victory against him. Before that, Show was involved in the World Heavyweight Title picture, where he put Daniel Bryan over time and time again -- I'll give you that. Before that, though, Big Show was the World Heavyweight Champion. And before that, Show was beating Henry by DQ and basically proving that he should be the World Heavyweight Champion. Before that, Show was kicking the ass of The Corre, etc.

Also, I think it was well and truly established in Punk's feuds with Jericho and Ziggler that he was the better wrestler.
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Old 06-02-2012, 09:55 PM   #2
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You're sticking with PPV matches. Show was losing regularly on free TV too. They used his "monster" status as a way of saying "What an impressive win!" for guys. After a while though, it stops being impressive because it happens regularly. Pretty sure Cody pinned him at one point during that feud too.

As for Punk, again, he was losing to them though. He was shown to be the better wrestler on PPV but if he had lost, it wouldn't have been as big of a deal as back in the day when someone like Hogan or Austin lost. Obviously them being more over has a lot to do with that but you know what else they had in common that Punk doesn't have? They barely EVER lost matches. I'd almost be surprised if a month went by where Punk DIDN'T lose a match.
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Old 06-02-2012, 09:56 PM   #3
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My point is not that he was not losing to them -- it is that he was clearly the more dominant in the feud, proving that wins and losses don't matter.
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Old 06-02-2012, 09:57 PM   #4
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If Punk lost every match from now until the end of eternity, and people still thought that he was The Best in the World and better than the guys beating him, then it would not matter if he lost every match from now until the end of eternity.
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Old 06-02-2012, 09:58 PM   #5
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There you go. Wins and losses don't matter. So why should anyone care about the outcomes of matches?
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:04 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
There you go. Wins and losses don't matter. So why should anyone care about the outcomes of matches?
You're taking things completely out of context now, KK.

Wins and losses matter in a sense that people are invested in the outcome. There was no excuse for Sting to not win the WCW World Title at Starrcade '97, for example. Anything else would have been shitty, shitty booking.

But people care about why the guys are fighting. They care about the story heading into the match, and what the outcome will [I]mean[I]. That's why CM Punk's story with John Cena last year was so meaningful. Punk had literally won maybe one PPV match in the last calendar year, or something like that. What Punk managed to do was get people to invest in the story and what they thought the outcome was going to be. If it was just Cena vs. Punk for the WWE Title, no one would have given a shit.
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:11 PM   #7
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You're taking things completely out of context now, KK.

Wins and losses matter in a sense that people are invested in the outcome. There was no excuse for Sting to not win the WCW World Title at Starrcade '97, for example. Anything else would have been shitty, shitty booking.

But people care about why the guys are fighting. They care about the story heading into the match, and what the outcome will [I]mean[I]. That's why CM Punk's story with John Cena last year was so meaningful. Punk had literally won maybe one PPV match in the last calendar year, or something like that. What Punk managed to do was get people to invest in the story and what they thought the outcome was going to be. If it was just Cena vs. Punk for the WWE Title, no one would have given a shit.
You're completely ignoring the other 9-10 non PPV shows full of matches that happen in a given month. I don't see how Punk vs Cena is relevant to the discussion. That feud was built on awesome promos and an intriguing storyline. Not "CM PUNK JUST BEAT THE CHAMPION IN A NON-TITLE MATCH! THAT NEVER HAPPENS EVER! HUGE!!!"

When was the last time you were invested in the outcome of a TV match?
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:15 PM   #8
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I think WWE is gonna build towards Ryback Vs Sandow, where Sandow finally gets beat.
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Old 06-03-2012, 12:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
You're completely ignoring the other 9-10 non PPV shows full of matches that happen in a given month. I don't see how Punk vs Cena is relevant to the discussion. That feud was built on awesome promos and an intriguing storyline. Not "CM PUNK JUST BEAT THE CHAMPION IN A NON-TITLE MATCH! THAT NEVER HAPPENS EVER! HUGE!!!"

When was the last time you were invested in the outcome of a TV match?
You just don't get it. You also proved my point. Thank you.
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Old 06-03-2012, 01:38 AM   #10
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You just don't get it. You also proved my point. Thank you.
Yes. I proved the point that you are unable to explain how the formula works in any way, shape or form so you evade like a motherfucker.

Seriously... I'm arguing the fact that the whole main eventer losing regularly as a way to build hype is pointless and only makes matches less relevant... and you can't see how bringing up a feud that was based in no way on matches has nothing to do with what I'm arguing.

I accept that you ACTUALLY believe the stupid shit you say about Riley and Slater... but you have to be trying to be this dumb now.
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Old 06-02-2012, 09:59 PM   #11
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Seems to me like making people care about who wins matches is a pretty big deal if you're trying to make wrestling interesting...
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:04 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Seems to me like making people care about who wins matches is a pretty big deal if you're trying to make wrestling interesting...
You care about who wins matches; but you also care about who loses matches. Ya dig?
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:00 PM   #13
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If you had a magic bank account with unlimited money stored within it, you could spend as much money as you want. It's the same thing with losing in professional wrestling. Of course, no one has a magic bank account -- but a guy like Punk can spend a lot of money if he manages to make more of it at the end of the day.

Keep in mind that it was just a mere few years ago that the win-loss record of Cena really bothered people because it was too much in his favour. Top stars need vulnerability.
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:06 PM   #14
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Because people didn't like Cena. So Super-Cena just pissed them off more. Do you really think Super-Punk would turn the crowd anti-Punk?

Vulnerability can be made without your top guys losing to half the roster. Hogan had vulnerability and he never lost. He is probably the most over star in wrestling history. Austin had vulnerability. He never lost either. He is one of the most over stars in wrestling history. Rock had vulnerability and he lost a shitload. He is one of the most over stars ever... The difference though... How many times did the fans get sick of him?
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:11 PM   #15
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I can think of loads of times Austin lost. And loads of times Rock won.

Punk has lost to like D-Bry in a Handicap Match, Tensai in the same Handicap Match, Jericho in a tag team match and then...I can't remember. I think at the very start of the year Ziggler did get one or two falls against Punk in tag team matches.

Is that seriously your case?
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:18 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I can think of loads of times Austin lost. And loads of times Rock won.

Punk has lost to like D-Bry in a Handicap Match, Tensai in the same Handicap Match, Jericho in a tag team match and then...I can't remember. I think at the very start of the year Ziggler did get one or two falls against Punk in tag team matches.

Is that seriously your case?
Austin barely lost during his entire initial face run and the McMahon fued. Hell, he lost the title to Kane via bleeding. In fact McMahon pinned him in a gauntlet match with the corperation on a Raw in England at some point. I believe it was heading into the Royal Rumble. The reason I remember that random Raw match so well is because Austin lost... and it was a huge deal to me... because it was so fucking rare.

Yes, you can think of loads of times Rock won... who can't? I said he lost a shitload. I really thought that was common knowledge.
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:27 PM   #17
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It's a lame formula. Having a guy lose to make it seem like the other guy can beat him at the upcoming PPV only makes it seem like anyone can beat him on TV... so after a while, who cares? Punk would be better served beating guys like Miz, Ziggler, Cody, etc in good, long matches on Raw to hype him up. He puts on a great match, wins, justifies his best in the world status. They take him to a great match, lose, justify their "almost there" status. Or he faces someone like Jinder Mahal, makes short work of him, justifies his best in the world status while justifying Jinder's "not even close" status.

That's the anti-parity stuff they should be working on. Each guy should have a level. They can over-achieve or under-achieve on any given night but everyone has a level. This "he's unstoppable... unless it's non title or until we're done pushing him for this upcoming match. Then he's just a loser inexplicably" thing is shit.
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Old 06-03-2012, 12:29 AM   #18
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LOL, Young is hitting Otunga's leg. He's clearly horrible.

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Old 06-03-2012, 01:39 AM   #19
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LOL, Young is hitting Otunga's leg. He's clearly horrible.

lol. Is "throw in a completely meaningless comment to hide that I have no legit argument" the way you're going now? You seriously just should stop trying.
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Old 06-03-2012, 04:53 AM   #20
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lol. Is "throw in a completely meaningless comment to hide that I have no legit argument" the way you're going now? You seriously just should stop trying.
Isn't that what you did with Alex Riley?
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Old 06-03-2012, 06:20 AM   #21
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Isn't that what you did with Alex Riley?
No, because I actually give valid reasons and video evidence of how shitty Alex Riley is. Not "LOL I'M GONNA EXAGGERATE SOMETHING FROM SOMEONE ELSE'S CAREER TO MAKE HIS REASONING SOUND EQUALLY AS RIDICULOUS!!!"
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Old 06-03-2012, 05:21 PM   #22
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The fued between Noid and #1-wwf-fan was better then most the fueds in wwe going on right now.

In the end I have to give it to #1-wwf-fan by DQ for the low blow from Noid when he used the A-Rye topic. (which i'm unaware of)

In the beginning Noid had some strong points but #1-wwf-fan has a good point, at least to me when he said that the build up of characters that already exist so that they can go for titles and them losing a bunch of tv matches is stupid not to mention now just completely boring. 1 of the problems is that we have too many PPV. and each one has a new build up.

Ryback
I have to go with Noid that him dominating means nothing in about a month when he loses. He'll need Charisma (mic skills also) to get him over. I think he'll need to dominate for quite awhile. Even after losing he needs to continue to dominate.

Lets not forget
We now have Ryback to add to Damien Sandow, Brodus Clay, Jackson and Mason Ryan.
We already have Kane, Big show, Cena (have to count him since he has a small power based move-set) and of course mark Henry. The "Heavyweight" division is growing in the WWE. It hasn't been really put togather yet but along with some of the other Heavyweights that already are and that can come back the WWE can go in a totally different direction and they can do it real soon.
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Old 06-03-2012, 06:28 PM   #23
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That monstrous heavyweight brute Damien Sandow.
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:55 PM   #24
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St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)St. Jimmy got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
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Old 06-03-2012, 09:31 PM   #25
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HEY YOU GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!! FEED THE MACHINE!
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Old 06-04-2012, 02:57 AM   #26
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MAMA BEEN BAAAADDD!
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Old 06-04-2012, 08:27 AM   #27
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Can't wait for Cena to squash the fuck out of Ryback.
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Old 06-04-2012, 02:26 PM   #28
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Can't wait for Cena to squash the fuck out of Ryback.
If it happened, I would only be more of a TNA fan!
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Old 06-04-2012, 09:33 AM   #29
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I can

And b4 any1 thinks I am, I would like to state that i do not hate Cena. He was at 1 time my favorite but I just think he needs a hiatus. When I went to raw I was part of the Let's go Cena Chants that have died in recent months. Not the Cena Sux chants
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