This new ECW is a FAILURE

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Vermaat I don't see a contradiction. ProTip: Just because you want there to be a contradiction, doesn't mean there will be.

You seem to be the only one who doesn't see it. Just because you choose to ignore it, claim it doesn't exist, does not make it so.

The old ECW did not but they wouldn't put it out of the picture. The new ECW would NEVER do it.

They did put it out of the picture by not doing it.

Your statements require you to ignore Paul Heyman and instead defer to your definition of what ECW was about. Sorry, but I think Heyman may know a little more than you on the matter at hand.

Like I said, they had techies but they were not the focus of the show. It was EXTREME that was the focus and extreme and dean malenko don't mix lol

Paul Heyman disagrees with you.

It was ironic because you're saying others are stupid when you are doing somehing extremely stupid.

Actually, I was challenging your mental capacity. However, what you accuse me of being "stupid" for is nothing more than a simple, commonplace event. You see, and I wouldn't need to explain this to someone who wasn't "special," In the process of replying, other people can reply too. This is what happened. It's unrealistic to expect this to never happen, and flat out retarded to try and make a big case out of it. "OH LOL I HIT REPLY BEFORE HE DID HES A MORON."

Again, just because you want something to work that way does not mean that it does.

You really wanna go back to that argument? You guys had no point. There is a clear point in my Dudley argument. They can not possibly have any other reason for not joining ECW, just not enough money because they were perfectly happy in WWE for years.

Which is why they took a pay cut to go to TNA, right? TNA doesn't pay the kind of cash they would have gotten regardless. In other words, your argument just died.

Watch a CZW watch and watch a new ECW match you will see who is the real hardcore and who is the real innovator.

How are they innovators? They're doing the same stuff Tards were doing back when Matt and Jeff debuted, back when Austin was still Stunning Steve, and back when Mick Foley was still an unknown. Again, you refer to them in terms of innovation, when their "hardcore" is the same backyard garbage that's had over 15 years of fame.

You want to know who the real innovators are? It's neither.

You people think my point is "ECW shouldn't have technical wrestlers because it never did" NO that is not my point and I never said that.

That's not what people are saying, or what they're claiming you're saying. If you're going to question comprehension, don't be such a hypocrite.

[Schoenauer]

What if after all this is over, and Vermaat is threatened with a ban... he comes out saying "Sorry, but that's been my little 8 year old brother posting under my account."

You seem to be the only one who doesn't see it. Just because you choose to ignore it, claim it doesn't exist, does not make it so.

The reason I'm not seeing it is because it's not there. It's just empty rambling from you, you haven't pointed out a real contradiction.

They did put it out of the picture by not doing it.

Just because you don't do it, doesn't mean its "out of the picture". ECW did some more violent things, they just haven't got to it yet. If ECW was still around, you bet they would have had at least one such match.

Paul Heyman disagrees with you.

And where did he say that ECW was not extreme?

The E in ECW disagrees with you. Extreme is in the name of ECW. EXTREME is E C W.

Actually, I was challenging your mental capacity. However, what you accuse me of being "stupid" for is nothing more than a simple, commonplace event. You see, and I wouldn't need to explain this to someone who wasn't "special," In the process of replying, other people can reply too. This is what happened. It's unrealistic to expect this to never happen, and flat out retarded to try and make a big case out of it. "OH LOL I HIT REPLY BEFORE HE DID HES A MORON." Again, just because you want something to work that way does not mean that it does.

UH HUH, especially after I point out to you that I adressed it, and YOU STILL don't see it. Sure thing. It's not my fault you don't know the refresh button.

Which is why they took a pay cut to go to TNA, right? TNA doesn't pay the kind of cash they would have gotten regardless. In other words, your argument just died.

Yes, TNA doesn't pay like WWE. Valid point. HOWEVER, this doesn't negate my point. Let me explain what happened. The Dudleys, knowing how extremely valuable they are, wanted a higher pay, WWE said no, so they left ON PRINCIPLE because they hoped that this will show WWE what a mistake they made and the WWE will give them the money they deserve. WWE didn't see their mistake, but if they saw it now and offered them an enormous contract, they'd take it. I mean, look at test, he said he doesnt like WWE, yet WWE offered him a big enough contract and he's back.

How are they innovators? They're doing the same stuff Tards were doing back when Matt and Jeff debuted, back when Austin was still Stunning Steve, and back when Mick Foley was still an unknown. Again, you refer to them in terms of innovation, when their "hardcore" is the same backyard garbage that's had over 15 years of fame.

They are innovators because they are putting these matches when most are not. Innovation is not just about being first, it's also about pushing something that others don't. CZW isn't afraid of doing REAL hardcore matches and their wrestlers aren't afraid either. They are HARDCORE, not "fake" Hardcore like the new ECW.

That's not what people are saying, or what they're claiming you're saying. If you're going to question comprehension, don't be such a hypocrite.

If it's not, why is everyone constantly flooding me with names of technical wrestlers in ECW?

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Vermaat The reason I'm not seeing it is because it's not there. It's just empty rambling from you, you haven't pointed out a real contradiction.

That's the "just because you say it doesn't exist" part.

See, several people have tried to explain it to you. You can't even just pin it on me.

Just because you don't do it, doesn't mean its "out of the picture". ECW did some more violent things, they just haven't got to it yet. If ECW was still around, you bet they would have had at least one such match.

It was pretty clear if you watched ECW that this isn't the case. You apparently want to pretend you watched it, but I'd say that wasn't the case.

And where did he say that ECW was not extreme? The E in ECW disagrees with you. Extreme is in the name of ECW. EXTREME is E C W.

Nice try at changing the language. You're trying to use extreme instead of hardcore. However, since HEyman has, multiple times, pointed the focus was on the talent, not the extreme...

UH HUH, especially after I point out to you that I adressed it, and YOU STILL don't see it. Sure thing. It's not my fault you don't know the refresh button.

No. Isee what you're TRYING to say. It just doesn't work that way. Again, not my fault you cannot comprehend the nature of the internet.

Yes, TNA doesn't pay like WWE. Valid point. HOWEVER, this doesn't negate my point.

It makes your point logically incongruous.

Well, it was in the first place, this just highlights the elephant in the room.

They are innovators because they are putting these matches when most are not. Innovation is not just about being first, it's also about pushing something that others don't. CZW isn't afraid of doing REAL hardcore matches and their wrestlers aren't afraid either. They are HARDCORE, not "fake" Hardcore like the new ECW.

Actually, innovation is about developing something new.

Too bad you fail at the English language.

If it's not, why is everyone constantly flooding me with names of technical wrestlers in ECW?

Uhhhh...Because you equated ECW with CZW? Insisted that the show was about hardcore? About extreme? That you can't call yourself an ECW fan if you weren't a fan of hardcore? And they're demonstrating that these numerous statements are false by indicating otherwise?

It's called LOGIC. If you can't comprehend that this is simply a counter to many of your bullshit statements about what ECW was, then you have no right to preach to people about their thought process.

That's the "just because you say it doesn't exist" part.

You FAILED to point out a contradictions. You just thought you did, you have no point here.There was not a contradiction, just your lack of comprehension.

It was pretty clear if you watched ECW that this isn't the case. You apparently want to pretend you watched it, but I'd say that wasn't the case.

I'm not pretending, I watched some of it. Not saying I watched it hardcore, how could you watch anything hardcore besides WWE in the attitude era and call yourself a wrestling fan, I dont know. But I caught some of it, some of the best stuff and I ECW built its name on hardcore.

Nice try at changing the language. You're trying to use extreme instead of hardcore. However, since HEyman has, multiple times, pointed the focus was on the talent, not the extreme...

Extreme is hardcore. Hardcore is Extreme. The focus was on the talent and a good part of the talent was EXTREME. Thus the focus was on how extreme the talent is. No one called it Technical Championship Wrestling, it was EXTREME championship wrestling. No one stressed how many moves Dean malenko knew, but they did stress the SUICIDAL GENOCIDAL Sabu...HARDCORE EXTREME things.

No. Isee what you're TRYING to say. It just doesn't work that way. Again, not my fault you cannot comprehend the nature of the internet.

The nature of the internet? Now you're just saying nonsense. You missed a point I made because you don't know how to refresh a page. Okay. I POINT THAT OUT TO YOU THE POINT you missed and you refuse to acknowledge it. This is NOT ho discussion works.

It makes your point logically incongruous.

Nice way at ignoring my valid point. Sorry that my point still stands and you have nothing to say.

Actually, innovation is about developing something new.

And PART of developing something new is promoting it. If you make the lightbulb and don't tell anyone about it, that's not an innovation to society, it's nothing. Part of innovation is PROMOTING it and that's what CZW does by making lightbulb matches a focus of it's company.

Uhhhh...Because you equated ECW with CZW? Insisted that the show was about hardcore? About extreme? That you can't call yourself an ECW fan if you weren't a fan of hardcore? And they're demonstrating that these numerous statements are false by indicating otherwise?

Easy comparision. Both are hardcore and extreme.

It's called LOGIC. If you can't comprehend that this is simply a counter to many of your bullshit statements about what ECW was, then you have no right to preach to people about their thought process.

You're the one LACKING logic because you can't understand that a company with EXTREME in it's NAME is going to be about EXTREME.

[Just John]

damn, I just wanna stab you in the neck with a pencil.

[Schoenauer]

If the Dudley BOYZ were concerned about MONEY, then why would they go to TNA for less money than what they WANTED from WWE? Your LOGIC is a FAILURE.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Schoenauer If the Dudley BOYZ were concerned about MONEY, then why would they go to TNA for less money than what they WANTED from WWE? Your LOGIC is a FAILURE.

I DIDN't see THAT on WWE.COM! UNACCEPTABLE!

[Dorkchop]

Originally Posted by Vermaat Yes, TNA doesn't pay like WWE. Valid point. HOWEVER, this doesn't negate my point. Let me explain what happened. The Dudleys, knowing how extremely valuable they are, wanted a higher pay, WWE said no, so they left ON PRINCIPLE because they hoped that this will show WWE what a mistake they made and the WWE will give them the money they deserve. WWE didn't see their mistake, but if they saw it now and offered them an enormous contract, they'd take it. I mean, look at test, he said he doesnt like WWE, yet WWE offered him a big enough contract and he's back.

Didn't the WWE just not use the Dudleys on tv for about a year, used them for the original One Night Stand, then release them shortly after? I'm not 100% positive on this, but I'm pretty sure I know more about than you know. I'm sure they talked with the WWE shortly after their release about new contracts, but basically told the WWE to screw themselves.

Money isn't always everything in wrestling. Look at Christian. He's making way less money than he was in the WWE. He made that choice on his own. He put aside money, and decided on being happy, and having more fun wrestling.

I know a lot of guys are in it for the money (Goldberg, Sabu, others), but there are guys out there who have pride and just care about wrestling (see Lance Storm).

[Dorkchop]

Originally Posted by Vermaat All true, but Kurt Angle is OLD today. He is BROKEN DOWN. HE CANNOT handle hardcore anymore. I like angle, but it's time to retire, not go to ECW

Who the hell are you to tell someone to retire? Yeah, sure, he's somewhat broken down, but a broken down Kurt Angle is still putting on better matches than probably everyone else in any company right now (debatable, but Angle is God). And do you know why he's "BROKEN DOWN"? It's because he busts his ass every single night he's in that ring.

Angle can handle whatever the hell you throw at him. When was the last time wrestling fans said he had a bad match?

And I believe Angle is only 38. How is that old? He's roughly the same age as: Triple H, RVD, Benoit, Kane, and more.

[James Steele]

Vermaat, SHUT the FUCK UP!

[Goulet]

Originally Posted by Vermaat They are innovators because they are putting these matches when most are not. Innovation is not just about being first, it's also about pushing something that others don't. CZW isn't afraid of doing REAL hardcore matches and their wrestlers aren't afraid either. They are HARDCORE, not "fake" Hardcore like the new ECW.

Noun
innovation (plural innovations)

1. The act of innovating; the introduction of something new, in customs, rites, etc.

Ban this goof!

[hb2k]

I wondered what happened to Sadistic. Welcome back man.





























CZW still sucks though.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Mr.RobertGoulet Noun innovation (plural innovations) 1. The act of innovating; the introduction of something new, in customs, rites, etc. Ban this goof!

He clearly didn't mean that, he was simply using innovation to mean...Ummm...CONTEXT, people!

[Skippord]

Vermaat for your own good

SHUT THE FUCK UP

[Xero]

Originally Posted by hb2k I wondered what happened to Sadistic. Welcome back man. CZW still sucks though.

Besides saying that CZW was #3 in the country, Sadistic was never this delusional.

[Kane Knight]

Nor a Cena mark.

[Xero]

Being a Cena mark is a whole different level of delusion.

[Mikey]

I must agree with CZW being garbage wrestling. It is down there along side XPW

[Corkscrewed]

Maybe its a DIFFERENCE OF OPINION but I think he's boring on the mic especially compared to Cena.

Alright. We'll chalk it up to difference of opinion.

Difference of opinion.


*snickers*



Difference of opinion.






Hey Vermaat, just because you refuse to accept it when other people prove you false doesn't mean you're not wrong.

Just because you refuse to consider other people's points doesn't mean they're not making sense.

Just because you refuse to talk about past topics doesn't mean you're still contradicting your statements.

And just because you're simply a fan of more violent matches doesn't mean you can pretend to hide behind this pretense of being a master of wrestling knowledge. If you love watching people beat the hell out of each other in barbarian ways, just admit it. No one's going to judge you unless you start imposing your views on others as though you're better than them.

On a side note, I really think you should become a missionary and go to the Middle East. I think you can persuade a lot of people to stop hating Westerners.

[Volare]

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 Being a Cena mark is a whole different level of delusion.

"Which brings me to my next point, don't smoke crack."

[Shadow]

Vermaat...for the love of the Goddess herself...GIVE IT THE FUCK UP!

You will never convince us that your points are valid and worth while if you continue to debate in the style of "IF I PUT MY FINGERS IN MY EARS AND GO LA LA LA THEY'LL LISTEN TO ME!" It just won't happen bud.

Oh for the love of god...YOU GET SIGGED!

[Blitz]

He's been banned

hallelujah!

[Skippord]

AWWWWWWW

[Shadow]

Just when it was getting good to.

[Volare]

talk about a kick in the balls

[Londoner]

Originally Posted by Blitz He's been banned hallelujah!

I wanted this thread to get atleast 12 pages before that happened.

Oh well he's banned so fuck it, I couldn't careless really. He deserved it.

[Pepsi Man]

Originally Posted by Vermaat Like I said, they had techies but they were not the focus of the show. It was EXTREME that was the focus and extreme and dean malenko don't mix lol

Yet Dean Malenko was a part of ECW. Your argument is a FAILURE! It's a shame, too, because this thread was really MAKE OR BREAK as far as your reputation here goes. Pity.

[Kane Knight]

I know he's banned, but I was planning on answering this later, and dammit, I'm gonna have me some fun.

Originally Posted by Vermaat You FAILED to point out a contradictions. You just thought you did, you have no point here.There was not a contradiction, just your lack of comprehension.

Actually, I pointed out the same contradiction several other people did. You might want to consider your comprehension for once.

I'm not pretending, I watched some of it. Not saying I watched it hardcore, how could you watch anything hardcore besides WWE in the attitude era and call yourself a wrestling fan, I dont know. But I caught some of it, some of the best stuff and I ECW built its name on hardcore.

Heyman disagrees with you. He's said it not only multiple times, but on your own precious WWE product.

Extreme is hardcore. Hardcore is Extreme. The focus was on the talent and a good part of the talent was EXTREME. Thus the focus was on how extreme the talent is. No one called it Technical Championship Wrestling, it was EXTREME championship wrestling. No one stressed how many moves Dean malenko knew, but they did stress the SUICIDAL GENOCIDAL Sabu...HARDCORE EXTREME things.

That's not the only thing they stressed though, and you'd know that if you watched it. They stressed him as homosexual, genuflectual, and Sodomistical because that was his style, not the company's.

Funny how that works.

The nature of the internet? Now you're just saying nonsense. You missed a point I made because you don't know how to refresh a page. Okay. I POINT THAT OUT TO YOU THE POINT you missed and you refuse to acknowledge it. This is NOT ho discussion works.

I know how to refresh a page, it's just retarded to expect people to keep hitting refresh because someone might have responded in the intermediate time.

There's a proof in physics that addresses something similar, and I'll sum it up by saying: By your logic, if a human being has a running start, a jet plane can never catch him.

Nice way at ignoring my valid point. Sorry that my point still stands and you have nothing to say.

Your point doesn't stand, like I said, it was logically incongruous. The minute you admitted the validity of my point, your argument died.

And PART of developing something new is promoting it. If you make the lightbulb and don't tell anyone about it, that's not an innovation to society, it's nothing. Part of innovation is PROMOTING it and that's what CZW does by making lightbulb matches a focus of it's company.

No, promoting something by itself is not innovation. It was already developed by stupid teenagers, and made popular by backyard wrestling feds across the country. The promotion of this did not make it an innovation.

Easy comparision. Both are hardcore and extreme.

Heyman disagrees with you. He founded one of the companies. Ergo, you are wrong, he is right.

You're the one LACKING logic because you can't understand that a company with EXTREME in it's NAME is going to be about EXTREME.

Except, again, Heyman disagrees with you. You may call my logic illogical, but it's as simple as this:

Paul Heyman, more than anyone, knows what ECW was about. If he says what it was about, I am in no place to disagree with him.

I think also, you fail to comprehend (That means understand) just how much EXTREEEEEEEEEME was used in the 90s, even for products that didn't involve hardcore. I mean, there were extreme televisions shows (Extreme Ghosbusters--OMG THEY R HARDCORE!!!!!!), There were extreme comics (as in comedians), there were extreme cooking shows, everything on MTV was extreme, because extreme was a buzz word for the 90s, whether you were actually extreme or not.

Of course, Heyman pushed a lot of things to the limits, which is "extreme" in and of itself, without even getting into this bullshit of "hardcore." Matt and Jeff were team Extreme before they did anything that could be considered hardcore, there, I used it in relation to wrestling. Extreme is used to describe many top rope moves. OMG ITZ HARDCORE! No. Sorry, try again.

And if you want to complain about someone's logic, complain about Paul E's. Mine is so simple even you (Or any other child) should be able to understand it: Paul knows better than you, therefore, I put more stock in his definition of ECW than yours.

There. When he gets unbanned by an admin, he has something to read.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Pepsi Man Yet Dean Malenko was a part of ECW. Your argument is a FAILURE! It's a shame, too, because this thread was really MAKE OR BREAK as far as your reputation here goes. Pity.

But Dean was not extreme and he was not the focus so therefore I am right and you are wrong! HAHA!

[The MAC]

who in the fuck is the vermaat guy? He causes so much heat on himself that X-Pac should hang out with him?.

Question : how do the followers of the original ECW find this new WWE version of it? I ask cause if the faithful are happy-then the rest shouldn't bitch about anything.

[D Mac]

LOL How can one be so serious about wrestling anyways. It's ENTERTAINMENT for christ sakes.

[Kane Knight]

How much of a follower did you have to be? I'm not a diehard faithful who saw every episode...In fact, we didn't get TNN for a while while ECW was on. I was introduced by a friend, watched eps when I could, and then regularly when TNN came my way, but I never went to a show or bought a PPV.

To answer your question, I'm disappointed, but not because it's not just like the old ECW. I knew it wouldn't be, even with Paul booking it (and I knew he wouldn't). But I was expecting better than just Heat live with some oldschool ECW wrestlers. The way they turn ECW rules on and off is stupid, and makes it more like a gimmick Stevie Richards or the late Crash Holly would have. I'm not saying every match should end in barbed wire, but I get enough DQs on my regular injection of WWE crap that I don't need to see another show where the Hosses dominate, matches end in dusty finishes, and the movesets are watered down to the point of being nonexistant.

[What Would Kevin Do?]

ex·treme ( P ) Pronunciation Key (k-strm)
adj.

1. Most remote in any direction; outermost or farthest: the extreme edge of the field.
2. Being in or attaining the greatest or highest degree; very intense: extreme pleasure; extreme pain.
3. Extending far beyond the norm: an extreme conservative. See Synonyms at excessive.
4. Of the greatest severity; drastic: took extreme measures to conserve fuel.
5. Sports.
   2. Very dangerous or difficult: extreme rafting.
   3. Participating or tending to participate in a very dangerous or difficult sport: an extreme skier.
6. Archaic. Final; last.

ECW was NOT about being hardcore. It was about pushing the limits, and doing something DIFFERENT then what was being done at the time. It was trying to do something different than what sports entertainment was doing at the time. Yes, there were some violent matches, but at the same time, they did something different by putting lucha libre on, technical guys like Benoit on, people like Tajiri, Super Crazy, etc, etc.

ECW was not about pure violence, it was about.... innovation.

CZW is about violence.

Am I bashing CZW... no.

But to compare CZW to the original ECW is obscene, mainly because they were two totally different companies with two totally different styles and two totally different ideals.


So now then... please NEVER compare ECW to CZW again in that way. If anything, ECW spawned two extremely different companies... CZW and ROH. If you make CZW less violent, ROH less technical and King's Roadish, and put them together, you'd have something more similiar to the original ECW.

[Kane Knight]

By the way, I think the hardcore ECW fans were speaking when they chanted things like "You suck dick."

[owenbrown]

Originally Posted by Kane Knight How much of a follower did you have to be? I'm not a diehard faithful who saw every episode...In fact, we didn't get TNN for a while while ECW was on. I was introduced by a friend, watched eps when I could, and then regularly when TNN came my way, but I never went to a show or bought a PPV. To answer your question, I'm disappointed, but not because it's not just like the old ECW. I knew it wouldn't be, even with Paul booking it (and I knew he wouldn't). But I was expecting better than just Heat live with some oldschool ECW wrestlers. The way they turn ECW rules on and off is stupid, and makes it more like a gimmick Stevie Richards or the late Crash Holly would have. I'm not saying every match should end in barbed wire, but I get enough DQs on my regular injection of WWE crap that I don't need to see another show where the Hosses dominate, matches end in dusty finishes, and the movesets are watered down to the point of being nonexistant.

It just proves the point that if your name is not "McMahon" then you have no say whatsoever in the creative process in their shows.

[Xero]

Originally Posted by owenbrown It just proves the point that if your name is not "McMahon" then you have no say whatsoever in the creative process in their shows.

Unless, of course, you agree with everything Vince says.

Which is essentially doing nothing anyway.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 Unless, of course, you agree with everything Vince says. Which is essentially fiddling while Rome burns.

You know, this Vermaat guy makes a lot of good points. This man knows how to think for himself, AND he knows his shit, he doesn't bullshit it. I am proud to call myself a Chain Gang member when people like him are around.

[Blitz]

And suddenly you're posting (relatively) coherently.