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Reload this Page So, Codebreaker... Yay or Nay? (RAW Spoilers)
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View Poll Results: Codebreaker... What do you say?
Yay! 30 50.85%
Eh... 14 23.73%
Nay! 9 15.25%
Loose Cannon 6 10.17%
Voters: 59. You must log in or register to vote on this poll.

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Old 11-29-2007, 09:30 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06 View Post
You said the videos were meant to lead us on, and that nothing can be extracted for certain from them. Turning around and saying that they pointed to an exact date, just because in retrospect they did, is damn hypocritical of you.
...No, nevermind. I got nothing.



I can't honestly figure out at which point Kane Knight declared a video that said 'NEXT_MONDAY' as being ambiguous.

I mean, Alienoid has.

But nah. I can't find a damn spot anywhere on the forum where KK's like "Next Monday? Bullshit." Yeah, there's the quote about the facts and connections that aren't there, and people overthinking and reading into it too much...

...but common sense dictates that he didn't mean the big, bold, motherfuckin' NEXT_MONDAY when he said that, especially since that quote was from before then.

Am I wrong in implying that we use common sense? I mean, this is a pretty fucking simple concept, guys. Or demanding that Alienoid post where KK apparently said this shit?

Show me some chronologically topical sources for a fuckin' change, and I'll get off your nuts 'Noid. But fuck, if every single point you make is going to be a reference to an older argument, then at least be ready to whip out those arguments. Jesus.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:35 AM   #122
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Can we get some kind of court order to keep Noid and KK at least 5 threads apart, like a restraining order or something?
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:37 AM   #123
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I like the pose before the move. It makes it look like he's gonna unleash a Hadouken or something.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:42 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedamndest
I like the pose before the move. It makes it look like he's gonna confuse everyone by doing his entrance again.
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Old 11-29-2007, 12:04 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06 View Post
But did you not once make the point that the effectiveness of a segment cannot be determined on the week it happened, but the effect it has the following week. That is, people hear about Jericho's return (as many people I know did) after it happened, and then watch the following week if they are interested?

I still maintain that this week's rating will be much more indicative of the draw Jericho is. I doubt he is a draw (at least, not in the Stone Cold Steve Austin, Rock, Hulk Hogan sense), but I don't expect him to send the WWE into a downward spiral, either.
I did once make the point that you suck, I mean that effectiveness of a segment cannot be determined on the week it happened, if it was a suprise event. Jericho's return was hardly a suprise. For 2 fucking months they hyped the shit out of someone returning and when. The rating should have been slightly up if not staying on par with the previous week if people gave a shit about this Jericho guy.

And I still maintain you suck.
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Old 11-29-2007, 12:16 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Critic View Post
Who the fuck said he'd hurt ratings? I haven't seen anybody say anything except that he simply won't make a difference.
I kinda did. I said I hope he kills the rating and get fired or something.
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Old 11-29-2007, 01:51 PM   #127
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Wow, Critic and KK are still going? I would've thought that their supply of nonsensical idiocy would have run out a page or two ago. Thoroughly impressed am I.
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Old 11-29-2007, 08:41 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
Wait, so basicly you are saying I'm right?
Quite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Innovator View Post
Yeah I don't like when people call for their finisher, but the first time it was kinda necessary to get the point that it's his new move. But two months in if he keeps doing it then it's annoying.

While on the subject of advertising moves, when Orton does the rolling and fist pounding before the RKO...does he ever hit it?
Yeah, I'll give it time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06 View Post
No, you just duck into a sarcastic shell when you are wrong.
Except you're lying or retarded. You're making up an argument that I did not claim, and trying to say that I'm being sarcastic and can't admit to being wrong with things I never said. I understand that you and Narc aren't particularly bright, but making up my argument for me and then being pissy because I won't own up to things only said in your imagination is just fucking stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06 View Post
People didn't care about the video promos. They did strongly point to Jericho, but they also went on for weeks, and weeks, and weeks. Did ratings dip the week after they originally aired? I just can't imagine people seeing "next week" and then saying "well I'm not going to tune in this one time when everything is going to be revealed!"

It's also pretty lazy to place the low rating on a guy who wasn't even back with the company. I'd tend to buy the trend after Jericho's return then the one-off rating of his (somewhat) ambiguous return.
Strawman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06 View Post
But did you not once make the point that the effectiveness of a segment cannot be determined on the week it happened, but the effect it has the following week.
The problem being, that applies to things which are unannounced. BDC has been clear on that, why you continue to fail to comprehend eludes me.

Or, basically, to dust off an old Chestnut:

BDC is right. You suck.
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Old 11-30-2007, 02:09 AM   #129
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Old 11-30-2007, 06:02 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Critic View Post
Who the fuck said he'd hurt ratings? I haven't seen anybody say anything except that he simply won't make a difference.
KK and BDC said he had hurt them. They explicitly said that ratings had gone down on the episode of Jericho's return, because people didn't care.
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Old 11-30-2007, 06:10 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Critic View Post
...No, nevermind. I got nothing.



I can't honestly figure out at which point Kane Knight declared a video that said 'NEXT_MONDAY' as being ambiguous.

I mean, Alienoid has.

But nah. I can't find a damn spot anywhere on the forum where KK's like "Next Monday? Bullshit." Yeah, there's the quote about the facts and connections that aren't there, and people overthinking and reading into it too much...

...but common sense dictates that he didn't mean the big, bold, motherfuckin' NEXT_MONDAY when he said that, especially since that quote was from before then.

Am I wrong in implying that we use common sense? I mean, this is a pretty fucking simple concept, guys. Or demanding that Alienoid post where KK apparently said this shit?

Show me some chronologically topical sources for a fuckin' change, and I'll get off your nuts 'Noid. But fuck, if every single point you make is going to be a reference to an older argument, then at least be ready to whip out those arguments. Jesus.
In the thread discussing NEXT_MONDAY, Dave said that Jericho's return is pretty much confirmed for the next week, and KK said "*sarcastic comment regarding Dave's intelligence for assuming such*.

If you want to talk about common sense, then you'd have gotten off Narc's back earlier in the thread. Anyone with a fucking brain would have got what he meant when he said that BDC hates everything.
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Old 11-30-2007, 06:14 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
I did once make the point that you suck, I mean that effectiveness of a segment cannot be determined on the week it happened, if it was a suprise event. Jericho's return was hardly a suprise. For 2 fucking months they hyped the shit out of someone returning and when. The rating should have been slightly up if not staying on par with the previous week if people gave a shit about this Jericho guy.

And I still maintain you suck.
That's fair enough, but if people didn't watch the week before (and ratings have not exactly been high), some people would not even know Jericho was coming back. They certainly could have missed the video promoting his return the following week. All I am saying is that it is unreasonable to think that there would have (or should have) been a huge boom for Jericho's return.

Another thing to keep in mind is that a lot of people who cared about Jericho would have said they won't watch until he gets back. My brother didn't see his return, and only watched this week once it was confirmed he was back. He saw his return on YouTube.
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Old 11-30-2007, 06:28 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
Except you're lying or retarded. You're making up an argument that I did not claim, and trying to say that I'm being sarcastic and can't admit to being wrong with things I never said. I understand that you and Narc aren't particularly bright, but making up my argument for me and then being pissy because I won't own up to things only said in your imagination is just fucking stupid.
You mean if you ignore the argument, it will go away. You're the type who lives in their own narcissistic world, Kane Knox. If something doesn't fall exactly into your limited argument's (and they are limited, no matter how you try to dress them up), you ignore it. See as follows:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
Strawman.
No, actually. It's on point. People are talking about Jericho's impact on the ratings. That is exactly on point of the ratings. Jericho's affect on the ratings should be looked at as a long term thing, especially when he has just returned. If you expect everyone who is interested in Chris Jericho to somehow know about his return the week before it happens (hinted as it was), you are a fucking moron. A straw-man would be you claiming someone makes up their argument's against you. Trying to deflect someone's arguments by not actually addressing them, but creating your own slant on them, for example.

Also, while we're on the topic of you claiming I make up arguments. How ironic is it that a few days ago you made up an argument about me always using TV references against you, like it was all I have? It was my...first television reference? Oh, and that's another example of your ironic straw-man tactics. I see you use the phrase "strawman" (which isn't actually a word, by the way), and I really question your intelligence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
The problem being, that applies to things which are unannounced. BDC has been clear on that, why you continue to fail to comprehend eludes me.

Or, basically, to dust off an old Chestnut:

BDC is right. You suck.
BDC actually clarified on that after I asked him if he said it, and since then I do not believe I had posted anything more about it until you posted this, like two posts after he clarified in response to me. Is someone making up arguments and seeing things in their head? I think they are. It's OK, KK. It's slowly becoming apparent just how retarded you are.

Oh, and I suck? Well, I guess I have to throw away that money I'm earning, and stop sleeping with women, and stop going out with my friends, all because a fat piece of shit who can't even use his own debating techniques correctly without trapping himself in them told me so. KK has spoken, and seeing as he knows all, I think my life just lost all meaning.
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Old 11-30-2007, 08:41 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06 View Post
KK and BDC said he had hurt them. They explicitly said that ratings had gone down on the episode of Jericho's return, because people didn't care.

Except that BDC said that's what he hoped for, and KK saying ratings went down doesn't explicitly mean Jericho's doing the harm. It just means, like I said, that he's not helping. Show me a quote or stop repeating yourself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06
In the thread discussing NEXT_MONDAY, Dave said that Jericho's return is pretty much confirmed for the next week, and KK said "*sarcastic comment regarding Dave's intelligence for assuming such*.
Show me the post. I can't take your word for it. Not with your track record.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06
If you want to talk about common sense, then you'd have gotten off Narc's back earlier in the thread. Anyone with a fucking brain would have got what he meant when he said that BDC hates everything.
Except that he couldn't explain it himself until three pages later. I explained why it was illogical already. Don't equate this to common sense when it's not. Taking a high horse doesn't make any real point, and you of all people should know that (seeing as you bitch about KK doing it so often). If you can't think of a real refute for what I originally said, ignoring it in favor of demeaning my intelligence is not a substitute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcissus
Wow, Critic and KK are still going? I would've thought that their supply of nonsensical idiocy would have run out a page or two ago. Thoroughly impressed am I.
Have you ever refuted anything I've ever said?

Then don't talk down to me without providing something of substance. Again, don't you people bitch about KK doing that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06
...a few days ago...etc.
You'd cut down on your post size noticeably if you'd stop trying to bring the last four years of your history with KK into every single argument. Whatever the fuck KK said about your TV references has nothing to do with anything relevant here. Not that this argument has anything of substance anyway--it's almost exclusively girlish bickering over who's smarter than who and what words mean what--but the fact that you keep looping back into old arguments only shows off how emotionally invested you are in debating with KK, and it's rather offputting that you give this much of a shit. I'd put money on the table that this thread would have died by now if you hadn't jumped back in to save Narcissus's case, with really nothing more than "I AGREE THAT KK IS A PRICK" and a few rehashes of the last few arguments you've had.

Fuck.

Narc made a generalization, KK's a prick, BDC wants Jericho to fuck up ratings, also hates alot, Alienoid has trouble interpreting arguments if insults are involved, the Dr. Cox references are still really fucking stupid, Jericho might not be helping ratings, chances are damn good that he's not hurting them, the end.

The end the end the end.

Jesus, fuck. Shit. I keep feeling obligated to try and pound logic and legitimate debate into these "WAAAAH STRAWMAN DR. COX COMMON SENSE HE SAID THIS IN 1995" pissing contests, and all I'm getting is frustrated with how seamlessly some of you can completely ignore valid points in favor of misinterpretations and silliness. I'm not even naming names, so if you don't like it it's because you have a guilty conscience.

And before anyone says anything, yes, I'm retarded for even fucking trying.
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:17 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06 View Post
Another thing to keep in mind is that a lot of people who cared about Jericho would have said they won't watch until he gets back. My brother didn't see his return, and only watched this week once it was confirmed he was back. He saw his return on YouTube.
Is your brother the entire wrestling watching community? He isn't?!?!? Then that arguement is invalid. One person's actions are not indicitive of the groups action of which they are apart of. That being said, just because 1 person did something, you cannot use that as a generalization for what the rest of the group will also do. Thus making your argument flawed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alienoid06 View Post
Oh, and I suck? Well, I guess I have to throw away that money I'm earning, and stop sleeping with women, and stop going out with my friends, all because a fat piece of shit who can't even use his own debating techniques correctly without trapping himself in them told me so. KK has spoken, and seeing as he knows all, I think my life just lost all meaning.
Well you do suck. Earning money, sleeping with Aussie women, hanging out with aussie friends does not prove you don't suck. But arguing over the internet against Kane Knight proves that you do, if you are from the land downunder.
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:28 AM   #136
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LOL. That was gold.

And Alienoid with his usual barrage of making shit up in its completely "Out of touch with reality" goodness.
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Old 11-30-2007, 12:38 PM   #137
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Noid better run, he better take cover
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Old 11-30-2007, 01:25 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
Is your brother the entire wrestling watching community? He isn't?!?!? Then that arguement is invalid. One person's actions are not indicitive of the groups action of which they are apart of. That being said, just because 1 person did something, you cannot use that as a generalization for what the rest of the group will also do. Thus making your argument flawed.
Well, 'Noid's justification, people who refused to tune in until they saw Jericho might very well exist, but he's arguing from the poor stance of assuming one side acted while the other side did nothing.

It's fair to assume also that people were tuning in to watch for Jericho, as a few people on these boards have confessed to. This would have an effect on ratings, one which Alienoid's example would not. So even with such examples, unless we are to assume they are the norm (Which strikes me as a bit ridiculous), if there were to be a reaction, it should have been positive.

In other words, Alienoid's trying to justify an overall lack of increase in ratings by a rule which is probably in no way the norm.

One has to factor in the "leaked" cover confirming Jericho's return and the Monday "clue," and figure that it would more likely engender positive ratings than a "wait and see" attitude.

I also wonder: If this week's ratings come out and they are either down or have plateaued, what will the response be then?
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Old 11-30-2007, 01:31 PM   #139
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I don't mind Jericho using the "Codebreaker" as a finisher, provided that it's not his only finisher (i.e. Angle had the Angle Slam and Ankle lock).

I also don't want Jericho to use the retarded Boston Crab as a replacement for the Walls of Jericho/Lion Tamer. If it was up to me, Jericho's original Lion Tamer/Walls of Jericho would be his primary finisher (and even using the double powerbomb before hand).

While I'm on the subject of Jericho, I am still not very impressed from what I've seen/heard. To me, Jericho's return to the WWE has been very similar to the movie Rush Hour III.

While it hasn't been a disappointment and is still worthwhile to see (even again), there's just no originality....or advancement. I hate to say it but right now, I just don't see Jericho "saving the WWE" in the manner that the WWE might hope.
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Old 11-30-2007, 01:42 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by The Critic View Post
I'd put money on the table that this thread would have died by now if you hadn't jumped back in to save Narcissus's case, with really nothing more than "I AGREE THAT KK IS A PRICK" and a few rehashes of the last few arguments you've had.
The same arguement could be made with you jumping into the thread to argue KK's case. And really all you added to the conversation was you taking things out of context and bolding your text to make yourself sound more important. You all make claims that me and the noid ignore the substance of what you're saying and resort to cheap tactics to further our arguements when you do the exact same thing. Argueing fact vs opinion is completely moronic, considering it was rather clear what I was originally saying. And then instead of taking "BDC hates everything" for the hyperbole that it was you started to childishly prove to me things that BDC doesn't hate. Of course when I tried to explain myself, you had alredy made up your minds that you wanted to be idiots at that moment in time.

Furthermore, I've been ridiculed for being long winded in my posts... and then had to endure 35 straight paragraphs by the critic telling me why (hyperbole. see what I did there? He really didn't post 35 paragraphs but I said that he did for effect). Listen, it is abunduntly clear that this is going to go absolutely nowhere. I could write a 9 page essay on why the both of you are wrong but the the only thing I would most likely get out of it is "OMG. STRAWMAN. LOLZ". Therefore, I end this madness knowing that I and the noid are in the right.
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Old 11-30-2007, 01:52 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
I like things. I'm just not buying this whole Jericho is god because he was half decent 3 years ago, then got lazy before retiring 2 years ago, but now that he has come back he is amazing. Just because some 6 foot talk 230 something wrestling is good on the mic, I'm not going to start jerking him off for nothing. Jericho is a solid upper mid card worked. Pretending he is awesome doesn't change the fact that he is upper midcard at best.

If you want to see greatness, HBK.
I agree and disagree.

I disagree that with the statement that Jericho is an upper-mid card wrestler at best. The man SHOULD have and COULD have been a wildly successful main-eventer...if he was pushed right.

Now here is the part I agree with (atleast I think you feel the same way). Jericho's character is STALE. It was horribly stale the last time he was around, and it's only a matter of time before he gets stale THIS time around. Why? Because - Jericho's character is almost the EXACT same as it was a few years ago (sans lesbian vest and lesbian haircut).

I've been a Jericho fan throughout his entire WWE stint, but I'm just not sold on his return thus far. Very medicore to say the very least.
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Old 11-30-2007, 02:50 PM   #142
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I agree and disagree.

I disagree that with the statement that Jericho is an upper-mid card wrestler at best. The man SHOULD have and COULD have been a wildly successful main-eventer...if he was pushed right.

Now here is the part I agree with (atleast I think you feel the same way). Jericho's character is STALE. It was horribly stale the last time he was around, and it's only a matter of time before he gets stale THIS time around. Why? Because - Jericho's character is almost the EXACT same as it was a few years ago (sans lesbian vest and lesbian haircut).

I've been a Jericho fan throughout his entire WWE stint, but I'm just not sold on his return thus far. Very medicore to say the very least.
With the right push, anyone can be wildly successful main-eventers, case in point Goldberg, Brock Lesnar, and Ultimate Warrior (hell the only reason Bats isn't in that list is because he didn't recive the right push nor is he wildly successful).

Anyhow, could Jericho have been great if he receive the most awesomely prefect of pushes? Yes he could have. But he didn't and he isn't succesful. Now take for example Ric Flair. He also didn't get the awesomley prefect push, infact for a good part of his career everyone was trying to hold him down, yet he was still wildly successful.

But yeah, Codebreaker Jericho is Y2J Jericho with a haircut and new vest, there has been no material change, just superficial changes.
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Old 11-30-2007, 02:51 PM   #143
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That and Jericho has 2 years of ring rust to scrap off.
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:03 PM   #144
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BDC, you can't honestly believe that anybody could achieve great main event status with a push alone? Will Big Daddy V draw if he is pushed to the top of the company? Would Hornswoggle be a viable main event champion? Did Sid ever draw a dime?
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:05 PM   #145
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Quote:
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BDC, you can't honestly believe that anybody could achieve great main event status with a push alone? Will Big Daddy V draw if he is pushed to the top of the company? Would Hornswoggle be a viable main event champion? Did Sid ever draw a dime?
If they wanted to, BDV could be a top draw in this day and age. Hornswoggle no. Not anyone, but any average wrestler could with the prefect push.
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:12 PM   #146
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Quote:
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Did Sid ever draw a dime?
No, but his push was kinda...Shitty.
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:12 PM   #147
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I humbly disagree but am open to be proven wrong at some point down the road.
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:20 PM   #148
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WWE likes to only prove the opposite of BDCs theory. They take guys with assloads of talent and push them terribly.
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:27 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcissus View Post
I humbly disagree but am open to be proven wrong at some point down the road.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcissus View Post
WWE likes to only prove the opposite of BDCs theory. They take guys with assloads of talent and push them terribly.
Um, Warrior? No talent, greatest push in wrestling history. And pushed by WWE...well F at the time. I win.
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:29 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcissus View Post
WWE likes to only prove the opposite of BDCs theory. They take guys with assloads of talent and push them terribly.
Vince McMahon: It is my theory that anyone can suck with the right push. And by "right," I mean the one that we'd give them anyway.
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:37 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
Um, Warrior? No talent, greatest push in wrestling history. And pushed by WWE...well F at the time. I win.
It saddens me that the greatest push in wrestling history involves a guy that runs everywhere and yells.
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:40 PM   #152
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It saddens me that the greatest push in wrestling history involves a guy that runs everywhere and yells.
As a wrestling fan, that should kind of be the best you could hope for.
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:43 PM   #153
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It saddens me that the greatest push in wrestling history involves a guy that runs everywhere and yells.
Why, that is awesome.
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:56 PM   #154
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*sigh*
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Old 11-30-2007, 04:02 PM   #155
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Everything in the late 80s and early 90s was like that. Scream as loud as you could to sell a product.

Warrior was merely a symptom of an epidemic that swept the nation ON THE ELEPHANTS OF VERBOSITY!
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Old 11-30-2007, 06:02 PM   #156
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The reason Warrior got his push and was such a draw is because he had "it". Something about him clicked with fans. They loved him, he was a lunatic and didn't have any real talent in the ring or on the stick, BUT he had charisma and was a character that people loved watching.
He's a moron and a madman and a complete joke, but he deserves that credit.

So, Vince gave the fans what they wanted and pushed him and it worked out amazingly until Warrior fucked it up.

So don't act like Big Daddy V has the same ability to get over with fans, nor the same justification in being pushed. To answer your question, NO with the proper push he couldn't draw a dime. Not ever.
He could be champion, because all they have to do is throw the belt on him. But he'd never be over.
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Old 11-30-2007, 06:06 PM   #157
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Any average wrestler (in terms of performing not just holds) can be a draw with the proper push. Haha, okay. So why haven't they found an Austin type. Surely if you give them tv time and push them to the main event over 2 years and have them win at Mania they're going to be over right? That's all it takes, the wrestlers talents don't matter right?
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Old 11-30-2007, 06:22 PM   #158
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Any average wrestler (in terms of performing not just holds) can be a draw with the proper push. Haha, okay. So why haven't they found an Austin type.
That'd be brilliant reasoning, except it assumes that WWE is pushing people proper. It also assumes that "Main Event Wrestler" is defined not by the main event scene, but by the very specific instance of one guy who was one of the best draws in his time.

Sure, BDC said "Wildly successful," But included Lesnar in his list of names. Clearly, he's not talking "best draw in a decade" when he says that anyone can be a main eventer.
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Old 11-30-2007, 07:11 PM   #159
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To which I still disagree to an extent. I can be a main eventer if the creative team decides to put the belt on me, but I wouldn't draw a dime so they wouldn't do it.
Thats why they don't put the title on Big Daddy V. It's a step above filing for chapter 11.

As for proper pushing, they have dropped the ball on some pushes as we know. But they still have managed to select the right people to push. John Cena and Randy Orton were the talk of the forums around here in 2004 and how they should be pushed.

Same talk surrounds Kennedy and MVP today.

Even if they're not pushed properly, they're selected for a reason and it has to do with their talents in various departments and the crowds response to them to test the waters on the investment beforehand. Not just anybody can be accepted and qualified, therefore not just anybody can be a draw/champion.
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Old 11-30-2007, 07:31 PM   #160
Funky Fly
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I'm still holding out for a Duke Droese title run.
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