this years wrestlemania is MAKE IT OR BREAK IT for the WWE

Seeing you say this is starting to annoy me. Have you been to a wrestling show before? Just because other people are chanting a certain phrase or whatever doesn't mean you're 'pressured' into it, it's not like they're bullying people into it. People hate cena, ALOT of people. I'm not going to speak for why everyone else hates him, but personally I find the guy to be very unentertaining and annoying, I don't care what gimmick he's in. Btw, How does booing a face make you look "cool"?

Yes I have and no it doesn't mean you're presured into it like a bully would pressure you into but if two guys next to you are chanting something and you're sitting there quiet and then more guys join in, you eventually join in. It is just part of HUMAN NATURE. You do it to fit in.

And booing a face makes you look "cool" because you are being rebelious and going against the normal reaction.

So people who boo faces don't actually hate them, just want to rebel right...

[Shadow]

Wow kid...you've certainly got balls. Indeed. But hold on a tic....explain to me this.

HOW THE HELL DOES SAYING A GOOD MAN IS NOW ROASTING IN HELL FOR CHEAP HEAT A WAY TO HONOR HIS MEMORY!?

I went back to the third page for that.

[Xero]

So, in other words, Vermaat isn't cool because he cheers for the good guy.

Wow, he just insulted himself and didn't even know it.

Originally Posted by Shadow Wow kid...you've certainly got balls. Indeed. But hold on a tic....explain to me this. HOW THE HELL DOES SAYING A GOOD MAN IS NOW ROASTING IN HELL FOR CHEAP HEAT A WAY TO HONOR HIS MEMORY!? I went back to the third page for that.

I always criticized Orton for this crap. I meant Mysterio referring to Eddie and dedicating matches to him is honoring memory. Not orton.

and people who boo faces often do it to Rebel. A face is a face for a reason, you are meant to cheer him.

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 So, in other words, Vermaat isn't cool because he cheers for the good guy. Wow, he just insulted himself and didn't even know it.

That's why I put it in quotation marks. It's not really cool. They just think it is when it's not.

not really bud

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Vermaat A face is a face for a reason, you are meant to cheer him.

That, my friend, has many exceptions.

Look at Stone Cold Steve Austin (most famous example). Originally a heel. The WWE tried their damnedest to get him over as a heel, but the fans wouldn't boo him. He became the biggest face in the last 20 years.

On the flip side, look at Rock. The WWE tried (not as hard as Austin, though) to keep him face, but the fans turned on him. He became one of the biggest heels in the last 20 years.

So, while faces are made to be cheered, when a good portion of the fanbase is turned off by them, and boo them, they have to turn heel. It's just natural.

The problem here, though, is the WWE doesn't WANT to turn Cena because he has a grip on the most prized demographic, the younger ones. Not prized because they go to the shows or even watch the TV shows all the time, but prized because kids always WANT WANT WANT and more often than not parents GET GET GET/BUY BUY BUY.

[Kalyx triaD]

Like it or not, the way this Vermaat kid is thinking is exactly how WWE is running it's business right now.

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD Like it or not, the way this Vermaat kid is thinking is exactly how WWE is running it's business right now.

Yeah, it is. And the way they're running it, especially in this slump, is wrong.

[anandraval]

I used to enjoy cena way back in 2003. Suddenly as time passed I realised that this guy is not as cool as I thought he was. His in-ring ability is a major point. What do we get out of his match.
1. The start off-bang! bang! punches

2. next 10 minutes he gets beaten up


3. after the 10 minutes TADA !!! SUPERMAN suddenly builds up momentum with some awfully idle clotheslines, 5 knuckle shuffles (even Candice can move outta that move)
and wraps the match up with a stupid F-U where he seems to just lift his opponent and slams him delicately with all due care for the pin.

No way chain gang soldier, cena doesn't deserve a goldberg-like run nor does he deserve to represent the wwe as the world heavyweight champion.

God Bless your ignorant soul...

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 That, my friend, has many exceptions. Look at Stone Cold Steve Austin (most famous example). Originally a heel. The WWE tried their damnedest to get him over as a heel, but the fans wouldn't boo him. He became the biggest face in the last 20 years. On the flip side, look at Rock. The WWE tried (not as hard as Austin, though) to keep him face, but the fans turned on him. He became one of the biggest heels in the last 20 years. So, while faces are made to be cheered, when a good portion of the fanbase is turned off by them, and boo them, they have to turn heel. It's just natural. The problem here, though, is the WWE doesn't WANT to turn Cena because he has a grip on the most prized demographic, the younger ones. Not prized because they go to the shows or even watch the TV shows all the time, but prized because kids always WANT WANT WANT and more often than not parents GET GET GET/BUY BUY BUY.

Those are unique cases, and let's face it, crowds were all about rebellion then so that played a role. But when you look back both Austin and Rock turned out to be great at both roles. Austin got most fame as a face but he was a great heel during invasion. WHAT?! lol !!!

Rock of course turned to be one of the greatest faces ever. It is just that these "rebbelious" fans don't give these characters a chance at their roles. If they gave them a chance, they could show what they can, and they did later. I can already see Cena as a great face and so can a lot of other fans, but like I said, these fans and the facts that the heels he has been facing haven't been doing their right role all come together to screw him out of a chance to shine. WWE shouldn't cave in to the fans because often they don't know what is good for the business.

I think to boo a face is disrespectful give them a chance because you never know (look at rock and austin)
As I said, the demographic has been EXPANDED by Cena not changed.

[Kalyx triaD]

Originally Posted by anandraval I used to enjoy cena way back in 2003. Suddenly as time passed I realised that this guy is not as cool as I thought he was. His in-ring ability is a major point. What do we get out of his match. 1. The start off-bang! bang! punches 2. next 10 minutes he gets beaten up 3. after the 10 minutes TADA !!! SUPERMAN suddenly builds up momentum with some awfully idle clotheslines, 5 knuckle shuffles (even Candice can move outta that move) and wraps the match up with a stupid F-U where he seems to just lift his opponent and slams him delicately with all due care for the pin. No way chain gang soldier, cena doesn't deserve a goldberg-like run nor does he deserve to represent the wwe as the world heavyweight champion. God Bless your ignorant soul...

Damn. Sounds like a The Rock match. Although Cena doesn't have anywhere near the charisma Sarge has. It is kinda silly to put down the 5-Nuckle Shuffle when it's born from the same silly-ass move types as the People's Elbow and the WORM.

Gotta admit, though; I like doing them all in the videogames.

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by Vermaat I always criticized Orton for this crap. I meant Mysterio referring to Eddie and dedicating matches to him is honoring memory. Not orton. and people who boo faces often do it to Rebel. A face is a face for a reason, you are meant to cheer him.

Again....why? Belive it or not, Orton can get credible heat. Really. He can. The WWE just killed him when he won the championship. So please, please, tell me how, by bringing up Eddie, do they keep the memory alive?

Yeah, it is. And the way they're running it, especially in this slump, is wrong.

SLUMP? Yeah a slump is when your company is the best in the business as the ONLY company on primetime in the U.S and that put out it's competition OUT OF BUSINESS. Sounds like a slump to me. WWE is making a lot of money, not a slump in any WAY, SHAPE or FORM.

As far as his matches, yeah they are similar, but that works. That's the traditional face. That's what Hogan did. That's what Rock did. That's what Austin did. Just because it's tradition, doesn't mean it doesn't work, it does work and I enjoy his matches because they allow you to wait for that big move and comeback. It works good for a face character.

[Kalyx triaD]

Originally Posted by Vermaat SLUMP? Yeah a slump is when your company is the best in the business as the ONLY company on primetime in the U.S and that put out it's competition OUT OF BUSINESS. Sounds like a slump to me. WWE is making a lot of money, not a slump in any WAY, SHAPE or FORM.

*Dives for cover*

Originally Posted by Shadow Again....why? Belive it or not, Orton can get credible heat. Really. He can. The WWE just killed him when he won the championship. So please, please, tell me how, by bringing up Eddie, do they keep the memory alive?

when they do it in a respectful way, such as with Mysterio, they are thanking him for all that he has done for the business by including him the program. But this is only if it's done with respect, not in the way with Orton, so they are helping keep his memory alive.

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Vermaat Those are unique cases, and let's face it, crowds were all about rebellion then so that played a role. But when you look back both Austin and Rock turned out to be great at both roles. Austin got most fame as a face but he was a great heel during invasion. WHAT?! lol !!! Rock of course turned to be one of the greatest faces ever. It is just that these "rebbelious" fans don't give these characters a chance at their roles. If they gave them a chance, they could show what they can, and they did later. I can already see Cena as a great face and so can a lot of other fans, but like I said, these fans and the facts that the heels he has been facing haven't been doing their right role all come together to screw him out of a chance to shine. WWE shouldn't cave in to the fans because often they don't know what is good for the business. I think to boo a face is disrespectful give them a chance because you never know (look at rock and austin) As I said, the demographic has been EXPANDED by Cena not changed.

Do you even know what I was referencing when I was talking about Rock? I was talking about his ORIGINAL heel turn from just after he left the Rocky Maivia gimmick and joined the Nation. He had to BECAUSE the fans BOOED him.

If they turned Cena RIGHT NOW, he could be a great heel. If they keep him as a face, in the current gimmick, after (not if) he loses to Hunter at Mania, he's going to fade into the background for a long, long while.

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by Vermaat when they do it in a respectful way, such as with Mysterio, they are thanking him for all that he has done for the business by including him the program. But this is only if it's done with respect, not in the way with Orton, so they are helping keep his memory alive.

But they didn't. They really didn't. Having him dedicate his royal rumble win to Eddie is ok. Really. I'm fine with that. The shit that happened afterwards....no.

But hey, I guess that's the type of reasoning I get for talking to the number one Cena mark.

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Vermaat when they do it in a respectful way, such as with Mysterio, they are thanking him for all that he has done for the business by including him the program. But this is only if it's done with respect, not in the way with Orton, so they are helping keep his memory alive.

But, you see, Rey may be doing it for memorial purposes (storyline-wise), it has in turn lead to Orton bashing Eddie.

Had Rey not been told to call out for Eddie, Orton would never have bashed Eddie.

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 Do you even know what I was referencing when I was talking about Rock? I was talking about his ORIGINAL heel turn from just after he left the Rocky Maivia gimmick and joined the Nation. He had to BECAUSE the fans BOOED him. If they turned Cena RIGHT NOW, he could be a great heel. If they keep him as a face, in the current gimmick, after (not if) he loses to Hunter at Mania, he's going to fade into the background for a long, long while.

I know what you are talking about. My point is still there.

Hmm, let's see, WWE had Cena lose to Edge and he stayed Face. Did he fade into the background? No WWE realized that they had to give him the title back. The "cool" fans stopped booing him because they were bored and he lost the title and the real reaction was heard. WWE can turn him heel and it will work because he is a great heel, but WWE needs faces more.

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 But, you see, Rey may be doing it for memorial purposes (storyline-wise), it has in turn lead to Orton bashing Eddie. Had Rey not been told to call out for Eddie, Orton would never have bashed Eddie.

That's Orton's fault (or whoever came up with it), maybe he should have done something else to get heat.

Mysterio dedicating some matches to eddie is fine I think, they were good friends. And I think it is fine when Rey uses the moves in his match and calls on for Eddie. But I do think it was a mistake to make him lose when he calls on Eddie.

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Vermaat That's Orton's fault (or whoever came up with it), maybe he should have done something else to get heat. Mysterio dedicating some matches to eddie is fine I think, they were good friends. And I think it is fine when Rey uses the moves in his match and calls on for Eddie. But I do think it was a mistake to make him lose when he calls on Eddie.

Do you think it's proper to "channel the powers of Eddie" right after he died? For storyline purposes?

Come on, THAT was pure bullshit.

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 Do you think it's proper to "channel the powers of Eddie" right after he died? For storyline purposes? Come on, THAT was pure bullshit.

Ok that's going too far to channel his power, but using his moves and dedicating matches to him is respect.

[Xero]

Thing is, that's what started the entire Rey/Eddie thing. Sure, dedicating a match or using a move isn't bad, but this entire thing got off to a horrible start and has been horrible ever since.

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 Thing is, that's what started the entire Rey/Eddie thing. Sure, dedicating a match or using a move isn't bad, but this entire thing got off to a horrible start and has been horrible ever since.

Not Rey's fault that other guys took it too far

[Shadow]

Rey could've stopped it at any time dippy.

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Shadow Rey could've stopped it at any time dippy.

Yeah, really. I'm sure that had Rey gone up to Vince and said that he didn't want to have any part in this he would have gone with it considering the circumstances.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Originally Posted by Vermaat Yes I have and no it doesn't mean you're presured into it like a bully would pressure you into but if two guys next to you are chanting something and you're sitting there quiet and then more guys join in, you eventually join in. It is just part of HUMAN NATURE. You do it to fit in.

Do you realize how stupid this sounds or are you actually trying to be a raving idiot? So if I show up at your house with a group of people and we all start chanting that your Mom is a slut and gang rape her, you will "join in" and "do it to fit in?" Because according to you, HUMAN NATURE is to be a spineless douchebag and do things because you're pressured. Hmmmmm, does this logic run in your family Vermaat? Do you have a sister?

Originally Posted by Arnold HamNegger Do you realize how stupid this sounds or are you actually trying to be a raving idiot? So if I show up at your house with a group of people and we all start chanting that your Mom is a slut and gang rape her, you will "join in" and "do it to fit in?" Because according to you, HUMAN NATURE is to be a spineless douchebag and do things because you're pressured. Hmmmmm, does this logic run in your family Vermaat? Do you have a sister?

That's extreme and not relevant. That's like me saying "eating is good" and you saying "What if you eat poison".

You can't deny that people do things to fit in in large crowds especially in cheering someone. You are inclined to do so.

[Kalyx triaD]

Vermaat, how long were you a fan of Cena? Since his Prototype days or more recently? Just asking out of curioustity.

[Arnold HamNegger]

Originally Posted by Vermaat You can't deny that people do things to fit in in large crowds especially in cheering someone. You are inclined to do so.

So basically, your point is that wrestling fans that currently boo Cena don't do it because they actually have a mind of their own and don't like him, they boo because they are spineless sheep that boo because they are pressured too. Is that your story? Are you sticking to it? So by your logic, if you were running WWE during the time of Wrestlemania 13, you would have refused to listen to the crowd booing Bret Hart and kept him face? You would have used the logic that people weren't booing him, they were just being bullyed into it by people trying to go against the grain? With your thinking and the way the current state of "WWE Think" is, this would have robbed the wrestling world of the great Bret Hart/Canada vs. USA feud, because Hart would never have turned heel and Stone Cold never would have turned face. Instead we would have had a similar Cena/Angle situation where Austin would have come out and bad mouthed the United States just in effort to remain a heel and keep Hart face. Then when people kept booing Hart, Austin would have taken the blame for not playing his heel role correctly.

That's basically what you're telling me right? It's thinking like this that has pissed off fans all over the world, because their voices and opinions aren't being heard....better yet, according to jackasses like you and the WWE...you're hearing them, but making excuses and phantom scenerios for as to why fans are reacting against what the WWE writer monkeys want. That's just pathetic and plain ignorant.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Vermaat SLUMP? Yeah a slump is when your company is the best in the business as the ONLY company on primetime in the U.S and that put out it's competition OUT OF BUSINESS. Sounds like a slump to me. WWE is making a lot of money, not a slump in any WAY, SHAPE or FORM.

Shadow's right, you've got balls the size of asteroids to so bravely disgregard reality when you speak.

Fact is, when you're doing ratings that are half as good as they once were, when you're firing wrestlers and touring smaller venues to avoid taking a loss, and all this with no televised competition, you're in a slump. WWE was doing this before TNA had a TV deal, and they haven't managed to improve now that they're not the only game in town. They've managed to lose their slot on Spike TV and their Thursday night slot for Smackdown. But I guess that's because a few bad apples made the networks buckle to peer pressure.

Meanwhile, you can argue what you want about rumours, but the interesting thing is we've gotten the moveset bit straight from the wrestlers on several occasions, so it's not really a rumour at that point.

Again, you do a good job at not letting reality get in the way. I wish I was cool enough to state fiction like fact and then declare myself the "winner." Me, my self esteem's so low I have to rely on reality.

Why can't I be as cool as you?
In my own mind, anyway

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Vermaat That's extreme and not relevant. That's like me saying "eating is good" and you saying "What if you eat poison". You can't deny that people do things to fit in in large crowds especially in cheering someone. You are inclined to do so.

Go try and start a mosh pit in church. Get a bunch of people (Remember, it has to be a small number for your scenario to work) see how many people otherwise disinclined join in.

Vermaat, how long were you a fan of Cena? Since his Prototype days or more recently? Just asking out of curioustity.

No I have been only a fan of him since he debuted against Angle on Smackdown in the green tights and before he even became what he is now. I never watched him as The Prototype because I don't have OVW on T.V here...

Originally Posted by Arnold HamNegger So basically, your point is that wrestling fans that currently boo Cena don't do it because they actually have a mind of their own and don't like him, they boo because they are spineless sheep that boo because they are pressured too. Is that your story? Are you sticking to it? So by your logic, if you were running WWE during the time of Wrestlemania 13, you would have refused to listen to the crowd booing Bret Hart and kept him face? You would have used the logic that people weren't booing him, they were just being bullyed into it by people trying to go against the grain? With your thinking and the way the current state of "WWE Think" is, this would have robbed the wrestling world of the great Bret Hart/Canada vs. USA feud, because Hart would never have turned heel and Stone Cold never would have turned face. Instead we would have had a similar Cena/Angle situation where Austin would have come out and bad mouthed the United States just in effort to remain a heel and keep Hart face. Then when people kept booing Hart, Austin would have taken the blame for not playing his heel role correctly. That's basically what you're telling me right? It's thinking like this that has pissed off fans all over the world, because their voices and opinions aren't being heard....better yet, according to jackasses like you and the WWE...you're hearing them, but making excuses and phantom scenerios for as to why fans are reacting against what the WWE writer monkeys want. That's just pathetic and plain ignorant.

Well I wasn't watching back then so I don't know how the situation was. The fans don't know how to run a profitable business, so the WWE does not listen to them, if it did it would be crazy. I mean you all thing ECW was good but it went out of business.

Fact is, when you're doing ratings that are half as good as they once were, when you're firing wrestlers and touring smaller venues to avoid taking a loss, and all this with no televised competition, you're in a slump. WWE was doing this before TNA had a TV deal, and they haven't managed to improve now that they're not the only game in town. They've managed to lose their slot on Spike TV and their Thursday night slot for Smackdown. But I guess that's because a few bad apples made the networks buckle to peer pressure.

Of course they are doing ratings that are half as good as they were doing because all these 17-21 moved on to something "cooler" because they weren't real fans, they were just watching because it's cool, so ratings went down to what they used to be and to the TRUE WRESTLING enthusiasts.

As far as wrestlers saying those rumors, that means nothing. Of course they won't say "Oh I have been lazy that's why my matches are not as good".

And the UPN network is notoriously dumb, look at all their other shows. Smackdown is highest rated on there so it was upn's fault.

USA is a better network then Spike anyway, WWE wanted to drop them anyway.

Go try and start a mosh pit in church. Get a bunch of people (Remember, it has to be a small number for your scenario to work) see how many people otherwise disinclined join in.

Yeah but cheering is normal in sports. Moshing is not normal in church going.

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Vermaat Well I wasn't watching back then so I don't know how the situation was. The fans don't know how to run a profitable business, so the WWE does not listen to them, if it did it would be crazy. I mean you all thing ECW was good but it went out of business.

It's official. You are just too mentally challenged to be in any contact with human beings.

Seriously, I've never heard a more retarded excuse for why ECW went out of business.

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 It's offical. You are just too mentally challenged to be in any contact with human beings. Seriously, I've never heard a more retarded excuse for why ECW went out of business.

ECW went out of business because they did not have a sound BUSINESS STRATEGY. They catered too much to a small group of fans and not enough to the wider fan base. It's just one of the reasons why they went out of business. There were more reasons

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Vermaat Of course they are doing ratings that are half as good as they were doing because all these 17-21 moved on to something "cooler" because they weren't real fans, they were just watching because it's cool, so ratings went down to what they used to be and to the TRUE WRESTLING enthusiasts.

You just argued how successful and dominant WWE is. They're cutting corners to avoid hemmoraging money. You lose. Sorry, kid, but trying to change your argument midstream doesn't work.

As far as wrestlers saying those rumors, that means nothing. Of course they won't say "Oh I have been lazy that's why my matches are not as good".

They're not rumours though. They're statements. You can argue their validty, but they are not rumours. Nor have they merely come from cruiserweights.

And the UPN network is notoriously dumb, look at all their other shows. Smackdown is highest rated on there so it was upn's fault. USA is a better network then Spike anyway, WWE wanted to drop them anyway.

LOL!

Wow, again, no grasp on reality really helps your argument. It's better to be on a channel that will pre-empt you 10+ times a year? Okay, whatever. I guess that's why they tried to strongarm Spike instead of simply moving to USA. Except foir the fact that Spike were the ones who turned WWE down. Your grand machiavellian scheme has failed.

Yeah but cheering is normal in sports. Moshing is not normal in church going.

Booing someone you like is not normal in wrestling, sports, or any other scenario.

[Xero]

Originally Posted by Vermaat ECW went out of business because they did not have a sound BUSINESS STRATEGY. They catered too much to a small group of fans and not enough to the wider fan base. It's just one of the reasons why they went out of business. There were more reasons

Heyman has said it himself, they went out because they lost their spot on TNN and they fucked him over. Had he kept the spot it probably would have survived.

Granted, Heyman is a horrible business man and it was bound to catch up to him, but the fan base had nothing to do with ECW going out. They were starting to sell out bigger places and were starting to catch on. Then TNN canned them for the WWE and it fucked them completely.

[Kane Knight]

Originally Posted by Xero Limit 126 Heyman has said it himself, they went out because they lost their spot on TNN and they fucked him over. Had he kept the spot it probably would have survived. Granted, Heyman is a horrible business man and it was bound to catch up to him, but the fan base had nothing to do with ECW going out. They were starting to sell out bigger places and were starting to catch on. Then TNN canned them for the WWE and it fucked them completely.

Sadly, he's now countering things said by his precious WWE.