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Reload this Page So, Codebreaker... Yay or Nay? (RAW Spoilers)
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View Poll Results: Codebreaker... What do you say?
Yay! 30 50.85%
Eh... 14 23.73%
Nay! 9 15.25%
Loose Cannon 6 10.17%
Voters: 59. You must log in or register to vote on this poll.

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Old 11-30-2007, 06:52 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funky Fly View Post
I'm still holding out for a Duke Droese title run.
I'd make a Val Venis joke at this point, but I'm already gonna be whined at enough in this thread by the time I log on tomorrow....
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:43 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Critic View Post
Except that BDC said that's what he hoped for, and KK saying ratings went down doesn't explicitly mean Jericho's doing the harm. It just means, like I said, that he's not helping. Show me a quote or stop repeating yourself.




Show me the post. I can't take your word for it. Not with your track record.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
From what I understand rating dipped down on the episode Jericho came back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knox
Ratings dipped. And ignore what 'Noid said about ratings. Ratings will change notably when the fans care.
Next time, find your own fucking quote and don't be so fucking lazy. You are out. How the fuck can you weigh in about "made up arguments" and not even read the whole thread? You're done.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Critic View Post
Except that he couldn't explain it himself until three pages later. I explained why it was illogical already. Don't equate this to common sense when it's not. Taking a high horse doesn't make any real point, and you of all people should know that (seeing as you bitch about KK doing it so often). If you can't think of a real refute for what I originally said, ignoring it in favor of demeaning my intelligence is not a substitute.
Who shouldn't have needed to explain it. As you said "I can't understand you, that makes you stupid. You can't understand me, that also makes you stupid." Don't make me find the quote, you said something roughly like that. You didn't get what he was saying. If you want to pick everything someone says on here for its literal meaning, then you're going to have to sort through a lot of hyperbole. Every thread has someone exaggerating for the hell of it.

It really wasn't a high horse, either. He just dismissed BDC's negative opinion on the thing in a playful manner. That's how I interpreted it, anyway. It's really difficult to explain yourself when you have two guys yelling "made up arguments!" at you over and over again. I don't even think Narc was "arguing." He was just saying that Jericho has been good since he's been back. BDC is entitled to his opinion, but he is in the extreme minority as far as his "I hope Jericho fails and becomes a jobber" views go.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Critic View Post
Have you ever refuted anything I've ever said?

Then don't talk down to me without providing something of substance. Again, don't you people bitch about KK doing that?
Everything in this post, and then some. Of course, you'll deny it, because people around here don't like admitting when they are wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Critic View Post
You'd cut down on your post size noticeably if you'd stop trying to bring the last four years of your history with KK into every single argument. Whatever the fuck KK said about your TV references has nothing to do with anything relevant here. Not that this argument has anything of substance anyway--it's almost exclusively girlish bickering over who's smarter than who and what words mean what--but the fact that you keep looping back into old arguments only shows off how emotionally invested you are in debating with KK, and it's rather offputting that you give this much of a shit. I'd put money on the table that this thread would have died by now if you hadn't jumped back in to save Narcissus's case, with really nothing more than "I AGREE THAT KK IS A PRICK" and a few rehashes of the last few arguments you've had.
Nah, it's pretty relevent, considering KK is easily [B]the most[/I] inconsistent personality (as far as his identity around here goes) I have ever encountered. He tears into people for using "Strawman," and although he introduced me to the term (incorrectly, I might add), you only need to do one search to realise that half of his posts involve him doing the same thing. He obviously puts no weight on his thoughts, and instead just drifts around wherever and argues on whatever side he thinks he can win on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Critic View Post
Narc made a generalization, KK's a prick, BDC wants Jericho to fuck up ratings, also hates alot, Alienoid has trouble interpreting arguments if insults are involved, the Dr. Cox references are still really fucking stupid, Jericho might not be helping ratings, chances are damn good that he's not hurting them, the end.

The end the end the end.

Jesus, fuck. Shit. I keep feeling obligated to try and pound logic and legitimate debate into these "WAAAAH STRAWMAN DR. COX COMMON SENSE HE SAID THIS IN 1995" pissing contests, and all I'm getting is frustrated with how seamlessly some of you can completely ignore valid points in favor of misinterpretations and silliness. I'm not even naming names, so if you don't like it it's because you have a guilty conscience.

And before anyone says anything, yes, I'm retarded for even fucking trying.
Yes, Narc made a generalisation. I think you're being too hard on him for it. Generalisations are made around these parts all the time. It was not worth two guys with a more prominent reputation than him jumping all over him for it. KK is a prick. There is no hyperbole there. BDC does hate a lot, which was the point of said generalisation in the first place (which kind of makes it accurate, does it not?). I don't have trouble interpreting arguments, it's just impossible to argue with KK, because he never has a real leg to stand on, however I do tend to push things for the sake of it. Dr. Cox is better than everyone on these forums, and always will be. Jericho is not helping ratings, and he is not hurting them, which was to the contrary of the point KK and BDC made.

I admire you unbias towards the end, and I agree with you, it should be over. I just don't like KK thinking that he's won, because he never does. This thread will die when I get bored. In the meantime, feel free to discuss The Codebreaker.
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Old 11-30-2007, 10:52 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
Well, 'Noid's justification, people who refused to tune in until they saw Jericho might very well exist, but he's arguing from the poor stance of assuming one side acted while the other side did nothing.

It's fair to assume also that people were tuning in to watch for Jericho, as a few people on these boards have confessed to. This would have an effect on ratings, one which Alienoid's example would not. So even with such examples, unless we are to assume they are the norm (Which strikes me as a bit ridiculous), if there were to be a reaction, it should have been positive.

In other words, Alienoid's trying to justify an overall lack of increase in ratings by a rule which is probably in no way the norm.

One has to factor in the "leaked" cover confirming Jericho's return and the Monday "clue," and figure that it would more likely engender positive ratings than a "wait and see" attitude.

I also wonder: If this week's ratings come out and they are either down or have plateaued, what will the response be then?
Thank you for actually seeing my point, as BDC did not. My point was that a lot of people would not have tuned in, because A) Jericho had not returned yet, and B) They had not heard about it. Just because the WWE runs cryptic (albeit fairly obvious to the IWC) videos on the matter, does not equate to a blatant advertisement. If the screen flashled red and yellow during an episode of RAW, the words "Next Week" appeared, and Hogan returned the following week, you can't expect everyone outside of the WWE's audience to have been clued in on it.

As far as the rating goes, it's got me a bit confused. Jericho is not the anti-draw. Jericho returning would not decrease ratings. I don't care if your point is that people don't care, I can not imagine a viewer sitting at home and then saying "Hey! Those videos are coming to an end next week! I am not going to watch for the first time in months!" That angle doesn't make sense to me, either. Some people would have watched for the return, other people were probably watching something else (because the WWE is pretty crappy, general speaking, these days), and others would not have been clued in. It's a confusing rating, because you don't have too much to judge on what people know. That's why I'm saying wait until this week's rating, and just see how the rating goes with Jericho as the top babyface.

And if ratings just even out (which they probably will), the response will be the same as it has been from the beginning. "No one expected Jericho to really help ratings. They just want him to make the product a little more entertaining."
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Old 11-30-2007, 11:00 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post
That'd be brilliant reasoning, except it assumes that WWE is pushing people proper. It also assumes that "Main Event Wrestler" is defined not by the main event scene, but by the very specific instance of one guy who was one of the best draws in his time.

Sure, BDC said "Wildly successful," But included Lesnar in his list of names. Clearly, he's not talking "best draw in a decade" when he says that anyone can be a main eventer.
Wait, so you mean someone on here said something that they didn't mean literally? Let's all jump on him and prove to him that Lesnar was not a huge draw!

Sorry, still in argument mode. But I do agree with Jeritron here. Anyone can be made a main eventer, but not everyone is appropriate to the role. For example, Snitsky and Big Daddy V. The WWE is pushing them both pretty strong, but neither guy really has much hope of getting there, staying there and retaining credibility. Talent, of some sort, is a huge key to success.

Warrior was also part of a different era. Kids bought people like him at the time, because wrestling did not have the bad reputation it currently has. Kids were able to take Warrior lunchboxes to school, and not get picked on. A guy did not have to be as good at his job as he has to be now, because wrestling was perceived as a lot more "real." It was less how good a guy was, and more how good you were told he was.
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Old 12-01-2007, 02:24 AM   #165
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I see my name pop up a few times in all of 'Noid's posting and I have time to read them as well. But for some reason I just don't give a fuck. I'm going to assume he is pushing for a Basham's title run again. And some how expects me to book it. While I could book it so they would be madly over, I just don't want too.
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Old 12-01-2007, 04:23 AM   #166
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JERICHO should have went to tna. it would have made more of a difference than this lesbian-esque shit.
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Old 12-01-2007, 05:03 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool
From what I understand rating dipped down on the episode Jericho came back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight
Ratings dipped.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Critic
...saying ratings went down doesn't explicitly mean Jericho's doing the harm. It just means, like I said, that he's not helping.
...Don't give enough of a shit to respond to the rest of it. It's arguing with a brick wall.

Very classy to neg rep me, Narc. I thought the "Stop being wrong" was a very mature touch.
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Old 12-01-2007, 05:14 AM   #168
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Also, the "Have you ever refuted...?" statement was not only directed towards Narc, not Alienoid, but I quoted him in it.

Alienoid, I'll fully fucking admit that you've gotten me here and there. Fuck, the fact that I've quit responding to most of that shit is a victory by default. The difference between one of your posts and this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcissus
Wow, Critic and KK are still going? I would've thought that their supply of nonsensical idiocy would have run out a page or two ago. Thoroughly impressed am I.
...Is rather evident. You know how you jump KK's shit a little too much because he's being a prick?

Narc is also a prick.

Try to understand where I'm coming from.
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Old 12-01-2007, 08:02 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by MacGyver007 View Post
JERICHO should have went to tna. it would have made more of a difference than this lesbian-esque shit.
Yeah cause not like he didn't get the lesbian-esque haircut well before resigning with WWE or anything. Aside from that, his vest/outfit are practically no different than what he wore around his first month in WWE to begin with. Also, you make it sound like his hair before was any more manly.

case in point: his first ppv appearance:
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:19 AM   #170
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...Don't give enough of a shit to respond to the rest of it. It's arguing with a brick wall.
It was amusing seeing someone else try, at least, to get through that thick skull of Alienoid's. Alienoid will simply make up his argument based on a fantasy world (Much like his sex life), and assume he's right.

Then, it comes down to this:

Alienoid: Why won't you admit you were wrong?

Kane Knight: Because you're claiming I said something I didn't.

Alienoid: HA HA! I was right! You can never be wrong! I win by continuously arguing strawmen points based on my limited comprehension! Now girls HAVE to have sex with me!
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:31 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Skull316 View Post
Yeah cause not like he didn't get the lesbian-esque haircut well before resigning with WWE or anything. Aside from that, his vest/outfit are practically no different than what he wore around his first month in WWE to begin with. Also, you make it sound like his hair before was any more manly.

case in point: his first ppv appearance:


LOL @ Road Dogg's comment. "Shut up bitch!" Caught me off guard.

Also - Jericho was freakin' awesome.....at that time. Why can't he just go back to being like THAT.

I swear - if Jericho acted like THAT and ACTED like a TWEENER (independent of how the fans reacted towards him), Jericho would be in a position where he could draw (provided the WWE let him get wins over legit main-event guys).
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:37 AM   #172
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RD was wearing a fanny pack?
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:43 AM   #173
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Man, look at that. Hey WWE, remember when you used to get reactions like that?
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:46 AM   #174
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Road Dogg has little skinny chicken legs.
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:48 AM   #175
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Man shit, back then Road Dogg is getting pops the size of John Cena's pops now.
Last edited by BigDaddyCool; 12-01-2007 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 12-01-2007, 10:56 AM   #176
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Quote:
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Man shit, back then Road Dogg is getting pops the size of John Cena's pops now.
And without the associated boos.

Yup. That's how far Raw's sunk.
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:26 PM   #177
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By the way, I'm going to go on record and say that there is an off chance that Jericho's return did hurt Raw. It's unlikely, but it's possible. My argument, specifically, in noting that Raw ratings were down however was to indicate that Jericho certainly didn't cause a ratings spike.

Kudos to people who understood that "Jericho didn't help ratings" does not automatically mean "Chris Jericho--Ratings Killer."

In all probability, Jericho will mean next to nothing to the ratings one way or another. I mean, it's possible that he will, but if I were to gamble on it, it would be on "Jericho not significantly affecting Raw's ratings one way or the other."
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Old 12-01-2007, 02:09 PM   #178
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He certainly has the power to draw in old fans of his. But even though hes a cult favorite, most people who were fans of him are probably the ones who were still watching through these bad times anyways.

And as for him drawing back fans who left, I think he does have that power. But it's not good enough. They have to be kept there. They need to become interested again and it's gonna take the whole promotion turning around to do that. Save Stone Cold or The Rock returning to full time action I don't think anything from the past can sustain higher ratings for a period of time long enough to be considered anythg more than a small spike.

I think the most important thing is the current fans and drawing in new fans. Jericho just needs to do what he does and he'll get over with the current fans and get new fans, just like he did in 2000.
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Old 12-01-2007, 02:21 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Knight View Post

In all probability, Jericho will mean next to nothing to the ratings one way or another. I mean, it's possible that he will, but if I were to gamble on it, it would be on "Jericho not significantly affecting Raw's ratings one way or the other."
If Jericho was pushed "the right way", then I might have to disagree ('might' being the key word). However - for the most part, I think you're right.

The only guy who would have a significant impact on ratings right now, would be The Rock IMO.
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Old 12-01-2007, 02:37 PM   #180
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You know, if you really wanted to get into it you could go back to 2001 and talk about how if Jericho was pushed the right way then and allowed to reach top star status and become successor to The Rock/Austin instead of HHH.....then perhaps this return would have more impact, or the promotion wouldn't need saving.

just a thought.
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Old 12-01-2007, 02:49 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron View Post
You know, if you really wanted to get into it you could go back to 2001 and talk about how if Jericho was pushed the right way then and allowed to reach top star status and become successor to The Rock/Austin instead of HHH.....then perhaps this return would have more impact, or the promotion wouldn't need saving.

just a thought.
And in my opinion, a very good thought....a thought of which I agree with.

The ONE thing that Jericho had (has?) going for him (similar to Austin, The Rock, and Undertaker), is that Jericho can be over HUGELY as a heel AND a face.

Very very few people nowadays have the ability to be wildly successful as faces.

Triple H, Kurt Angle, Randy Orton, and numerous others are all wrestlers who simply cannot deliver as faces (atleast if their past is of any indication). Jericho however, CAN. I also agree that if Jericho was pushed the right way in 2001, then yes - he WOULD have been the next heir apparent to The Rock. No question.

If things were up to me, I would have had Jericho, not Angle, feud with Austin at Summerslam 2001....and beyond. If it was up to me, I would have had Jericho feud with The Rock......both as faces.....and let the fans naturally gravitate towards Jericho (it was around this time the fans were slowly starting to get tired of The Rock).

If it was up to me, Jericho's title victory over Triple H actually would have happened. The Rock and Triple H were wildly over enough as it was....and didn't need the title. Jericho carrying the strap at that time (especially in the manner that he went over Triple H) would have been perfect.
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Old 12-01-2007, 02:58 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron View Post
You know, if you really wanted to get into it you could go back to 2001 and talk about how if Jericho was pushed the right way then and allowed to reach top star status and become successor to The Rock/Austin instead of HHH.....then perhaps this return would have more impact, or the promotion wouldn't need saving.

just a thought.
Coulda woulda shoulda...no way to prove that. And it it little suprise that someone named after Jericho's tv would be arguing so hard that Jericho is god.
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Old 12-01-2007, 03:00 PM   #183
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The WCW and nWo coming in, and HHH coming back is what threw a wrench in it all.

It was clear after Wrestlemania 17 that they were about to bump Jericho up to the big time. In a perfect situation he would have fueded with Austin or Rock for the title going into Wrestlemania 18.

And fued with the other one before that during the summer or fall of 2001.

Austin/Jericho could have been immense, and its seeds got trampled on once the WCW was bought.

Jericho/Rock was immense in fall of 01, and could have been the most amazing Wrestlemania build and fued ever for Wrestlemania 18. Had Rock and not Jericho turned on the WWF and gone heel, it would have taken the right direction.

And if it weren't for them focusing on nWo and HHH they wouldn't have fucked up so much potential in Jericho as the company star, the Wrestlemania main event, and the prospect of a high profile Rock/Jericho or Austin/Jericho fued for the title.
Last edited by Jeritron; 12-01-2007 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 12-01-2007, 03:02 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyCool View Post
Coulda woulda shoulda...no way to prove that. And it it little suprise that someone named after Jericho's tv would be arguing so hard that Jericho is god.

Yea dude. So what happened to you man? I leave for a few months and all of a sudden you think you're the don?
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Old 12-01-2007, 03:58 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron View Post
Yea dude. So what happened to you man? I leave for a few months and all of a sudden you think you're the don?
No, I think I'm the king of the wrestling forum and I'm kliq for life. So I kinda trump you.
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Old 12-01-2007, 04:02 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeritron View Post
You know, if you really wanted to get into it you could go back to 2001 and talk about how if Jericho was pushed the right way then and allowed to reach top star status and become successor to The Rock/Austin instead of HHH.....then perhaps this return would have more impact, or the promotion wouldn't need saving.

just a thought.
The Butterfly effect.

Not exactly so, but if you go far enough back, almost any change beyond the absolutely most trivial could have had an impact to alter the course of history sufficiently.

On the other hand, there's also the point that if everything had been done right, the programming would be radically different anyway. On some level, I think we're all aware of that. On the other hand, that's pointless, even by IWC standards.

WWE can actually do a lot to save itself in the here and now, and that's where their actions really matter. It would be great if Vinnie Mac could just hop into the Wayback Machine and dial up 2003 or whenever, but he can't.

What he can do, I suppose, is listen to the fans in the here and now. the ones who Yawn when DX comes out, barely pop for the biggest faces, and barely give heat to the biggest heels. The ones who have become indifferent to the programming.

And maybe that's not as good as going back in time, using Jericho better, and whatever, but they've got him now, and that's all that matters.
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Old 12-01-2007, 04:41 PM   #187
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I swear Noble used the same move abotu 2 or 3 weeks ago? Anyway, it's no Walls of Jericho, though he does have a knack at good move names imo.
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Old 12-01-2007, 04:47 PM   #188
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Noble? Isn't he on that show nobody watches?
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Old 12-01-2007, 04:56 PM   #189
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Remember when Eddie and RVD feuded over the Five Star?


...Remember when shit like this actually lead to feuds?
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Old 12-01-2007, 05:07 PM   #190
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Quote:
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Remember when Eddie and RVD feuded over the Five Star?


...Remember when shit like this actually lead to feuds?
I'll just continue this.

Remember feuds?
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Old 12-01-2007, 05:13 PM   #191
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Remember when there was shit actually worth remembering.
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Old 12-01-2007, 08:23 PM   #192
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Remember when there was shit actually worth remembering.

....Damn youse.
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Old 12-03-2007, 08:53 PM   #193
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Did we ever get the ratings for Nov. 26th Raw?
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Old 12-03-2007, 09:02 PM   #194
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You can see the real ratings as early as tomorrow afternoon, depending. The BS ratings the dirt sheets usually have, I dunno. But in probably 24 hours, they'll be up.

(I say probably because Nielsen updates every Wednesday, officially, meaning their tendency to be early is nice, but not to be epected)
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Old 12-04-2007, 05:25 AM   #195
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By the way, I'm going to go on record and say that there is an off chance that Jericho's return did hurt Raw. It's unlikely, but it's possible. My argument, specifically, in noting that Raw ratings were down however was to indicate that Jericho certainly didn't cause a ratings spike.

Kudos to people who understood that "Jericho didn't help ratings" does not automatically mean "Chris Jericho--Ratings Killer."

In all probability, Jericho will mean next to nothing to the ratings one way or another. I mean, it's possible that he will, but if I were to gamble on it, it would be on "Jericho not significantly affecting Raw's ratings one way or the other."
Actually, in a topic and a post talking about the impact Chris Jericho has had since returning, and pointing out that ratings have dipped, as accurate as it may be, is indicative. If you meant to imply that Jericho would not have an effect on ratings, you might as well have said "Jericho will not effect ratings."
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Old 12-04-2007, 05:25 AM   #196
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I see my name pop up a few times in all of 'Noid's posting and I have time to read them as well. But for some reason I just don't give a fuck. I'm going to assume he is pushing for a Basham's title run again. And some how expects me to book it. While I could book it so they would be madly over, I just don't want too.


That's a lot lamer than you think it is.
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Old 12-04-2007, 05:34 AM   #197
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Quote:
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I swear Noble used the same move abotu 2 or 3 weeks ago? Anyway, it's no Walls of Jericho, though he does have a knack at good move names imo.
Jamie Noble probably used a fireman's carry into a double knee gutbuster. Both moves use two knees, but they are quite different.
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Old 12-04-2007, 05:41 AM   #198
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It was amusing seeing someone else try, at least, to get through that thick skull of Alienoid's. Alienoid will simply make up his argument based on a fantasy world (Much like his sex life), and assume he's right.

Then, it comes down to this:

Alienoid: Why won't you admit you were wrong?

Kane Knight: Because you're claiming I said something I didn't.

Alienoid: HA HA! I was right! You can never be wrong! I win by continuously arguing strawmen points based on my limited comprehension! Now girls HAVE to have sex with me!
I'm thick?

Kane Knight: Made up arguments!

Alienoid: How are they made up arguments? You always do this, believe what you want to believe, take everything out of context, and then make straw-man arguments.

Kane Knight: Made up...la-la-la, I can't hear you. Strawman. I'm not arguing this point, and instead saying it is made-up, and I'm going to insult your intelligence.

Also, your desperation is amazing. Attacking my sex life like you know anything about me? See, I know you're a fat sack of shit who accomplishes nothing of importance.

Anyway, there is no point arguing with a cat with a tape recorder attached to its collar, so I'm done with you until you say something really stupid again. Shall not be long. Really, shame on me for arguing with you, though. I should have learned by now that you're never going to apply full sight to a situation. I believe it was Einstein who once said "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results." KK will always give you bull, shit, and usually in that order.
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Old 12-04-2007, 05:47 AM   #199
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tbh, dude, you are the one who brought up your sex life first.
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Old 12-04-2007, 06:50 AM   #200
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So yeah...the Codebreaker
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